I Feel Like Starting An Argument: Writing a fanfiction based on ANY story you've ever read is perfectly fine***

[lovecraft68]

You mess with someone's tea, don't expect any sympathy from the court!

True, but if you have permission to take a sip, that's different.

Having said that, out in the mainstream a ton of 'content' creators make bank from doing covers of other people's songs and from what I hear it falls under parody-even though they are serious efforts-and as long as they credit the original source, its legal.

I see it this way, if Gene Simmons, the most litigious person in the industry can't stop people from making money on covering Kiss songs, it has to be allowed.

 

[litfan10]

I recently read a wonderful book by Caro de Robertis called The Palace of Eros - a retelling of the Persephone myth having Eros be transgender. They made it work brilliantly. Right now I'm reading Masquerade by O. O. Santorini a mash up of the Persephone myth with African lore from the time of early Timbuktu. So far a great book.

Am I glad these authors wrote this books? Absolutely. Do I consider them fanfiction-ish? No. These authors took a concept extending them to a point clearly making them their own.

Reading these make me appreciate what the authors have done and their creativity/imagination. It adds to my enjoyment of the original.

 

[KeithD]

But if I asked you, and you never responded or you were dead or whatever, I think there's nothing wrong with writing a fanfic even without permission.

You would be wrong.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

So for my house, I need to put up a sign saying, "Don't come in here unless you're invited"? I don't think so.

I thought it was an ethical given that people respect other people's property, that they don't just wander in and say, "Well, I wanted to come in, so I did, and while I was there I re-arranged the furniture and painted the walls, because I think you did a shit job in the first place."

Intellectual Property is no different. It doesn't need a sign saying, don't touch.

It's not yours to do with as you choose, not until my copyright expires, which is seventy years after my death here in Australia (it's the same in America, since our copyright law aligns with yours, as of 2005, when the Australia-US Free Trade Agreement (AUSFTA) came into being).

So the answer is always, legally and ethically, "Not without permission."

In your house? No. On your property? Yes.

Trespassing is only a crime if a person has a reasonable understanding that they were not wanted in a particular place.

Where I live, you are allowed to walk the woods unless they are marked "No Trespassing" and if you are found by the owner, and they ask you to leave, you have to.

Was it wrong for you to walk unmarked woods until you know that the owner doesn't want people there? I don't think so.

Copyright law was created to protect profits. It's a civil matter and you can be sued for damages.

In general, fan fiction caused no damage, so no money can be made.

The same goes small independent creators. Making a fan fiction of their work doesn't hurt them, but you should always respect their expressed opinions.

 

[Plathfan]

I'm not going to get in an argument about it or call names, but I totally disagree. I think this is icky. I think it's wrong. You're entitled to your own opinion, but it seems to me that it's obvious from author feedback in this thread that so many authors disagree with you that you are making unwarranted assumptions about what one can reasonably expect and that the obviously courteous thing to do is to get permission first, period.

The main issue with this approach (which sounds extremely '"lawyerish") is that when one doesn't get a response from an author, and following your logic, they're likely to cunningly strip out any revealing features from the source and use it anyway, thus preventing the rightfully earned credit and leaving one feeling like a thief. While it may be perfectly legal, it's wrong, at least by my standards.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

You would be wrong.

You have every right to your (incorrect) opinions.

Now, which of your characters do you want in the upcoming story? You've already given your permission by posting

 

[KeithD]

You have every right to your (incorrect) opinions.

Now, which of your characters do you want in the upcoming story? You've already given your permission by posting

You posted the purpose of your thread is to start an argument. I'll leave you hanging on that. I don't care if you are wrong about this. You don't seem to be much of a writing threat.

 

[Plathfan]

True, but if you have permission to take a sip, that's different.

Having said that, out in the mainstream a ton of 'content' creators make bank from doing covers of other people's songs and from what I hear it falls under parody-even though they are serious efforts-and as long as they credit the original source, its legal.

I see it this way, if Gene Simmons, the most litigious person in the industry can't stop people from making money on covering Kiss songs, it has to be allowed.

To my knowledge, in the music industry, one-third of the royalties go to the songwriter, one-third to the composer, and one-third to the performer. Thus, if someone performs a piece that you both wrote and composed, you are still entitled to two-thirds of the revenue. This explains the prevalence of covers.

 

[litfan10]

In your house? No. On your property? Yes.

Trespassing is only a crime if a person has a reasonable understanding that they were not wanted in a particular place.

Where I live, you are allowed to walk the woods unless they are marked "No Trespassing" and if you are found by the owner, and they ask you to leave, you have to.

Was it wrong for you to walk unmarked woods until you know that the owner doesn't want people there? I don't think so.

Copyright law was created to protect profits. It's a civil matter and you can be sued for damages.

In general, fan fiction caused no damage, so no money can be made.

The same goes small independent creators. Making a fan fiction of their work doesn't hurt them, but you should always respect their expressed opinions.

For me there's a clear take away here regarding 'money.'. My characters. My basic storyline. My setting (aka my intellectual property) then I did a lot of the work so I deserve a cut of any profit. If there is no profit then okay go for it.

Except for one point.

My characters, my basic storyline. My setting then I did a lot of the work so I always deserve some credit. I would have a BIG issue with someone saying (or implying through lack of acknowledgement) that it is their story utterly.

That's plagiarism.

They give me acknowledgement? Then sure have fun. I'd be flattered that someone liked my work or even hated it so much that they felt compelled to riff off of it. Maybe I'll get some readers to my own works from it. To me that's free advertising. To not let readers know of my original that is being riffed off of then I feel that author is a lazy asshole who stole from me.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

You posted the purpose of your thread is to start an argument. I'll leave you hanging on that. I don't care if you are wrong about this. You don't seem to be much of a writing threat.

Hehehe. None of us here are that much of a threat, sir. That's my point.

People using your characters and story do not actually hurt you.

That said, all joking aside, I would never actually use anything you wrote because A) I know you wouldn't like it and B) I've never read anything you've written. Lol

 

[KeithD]

I've never read anything you've written. Lol

Likewise. So, no need to try to keep you from meandering down false paths.

 

[SimonDoom]

The main issue with this approach (which sounds extremely '"lawyerish") is that when one doesn't get a response from an author, and following your logic, they're likely to cunningly strip out any revealing features from the source and use it anyway, thus preventing the rightfully earned credit and leaving one feeling like a thief. While it may be perfectly legal, it's wrong, at least by my standards.

My other post on the idea v. expression distinction helps explain this. There is nothing infringing OR unethical, in my opinion, in taking the basic ideas of another author's story and writing your own without permission or credit. Creative ideas are not proprietary; nobody owns them. I'll give an example. I wrote a "mailgirl" story, after I read somebody else's mail girl story. I used the mailgirl concept, but came up with entirely different characters, setting, plot, etc. I see nothing wrong with this. Jane Smiley wasn't morally obligated to expressly credit Shakespeare's King Lear when she wrote her Pulitzer Prize winning novel A Thousand Acres. I have borrowed ideas from other stories I've read, but I've never "stripped out" identifying characteristics to get away with it. I'm just careful to borrow basic ideas and not the specifics of characters, plot, dialogue, setting, words used, etc. This is perfectly OK.

 

[litfan10]

To my knowledge, in the music industry, one-third of the royalties go to the songwriter, one-third to the composer, and one-third to the performer. Thus, if someone performs a piece that you both wrote and composed, you are still entitled to two-thirds of the revenue. This explains the prevalence of covers.

Not exactly true I believe. Music publishing houses, especially the big three, own the rights and get the royalties and must dole them out as per any contracts.

For example, after the Police finished the Synchronicity album, the involved publishing sent a note out the contractually none of the boys gave proper song writing credit to "Every Breath You Take.". Sting went in with Andy Summers who clearly wrote the guitar part saying 'I can't be bothered, you take care of it' which Sting took to mean, sign for it.

Flash forward forty years later, Sting is making millions of dollars still and Summers isn't getting a cent. It is still being battled in court, again, forty years later.

 

[lovecraft68]

You have every right to your (incorrect) opinions.

Now, which of your characters do you want in the upcoming story? You've already given your permission by posting

Now you're just being a shit about it.

@KeithD and I don't get along all that well, been the case since I came here 15 years ago.

But between pen names he has 2k stories and has been helping people here and for many years on the editing forum for close to 20 years (His SRPLT name is dated 2006 I believe) so what I'm saying is there's a time to talk some smack and a time to realize who you're speaking to, and how piss poor you're coming off because unlike you they've been here for longer than a hot minute and have actually achieved something here.

As evidenced in the BlackrandL1958 attack thread started by an instigator, and after BR took it to another full of themselves AH member in the feedback thread, the old guard of the forum and story side of Lit-and now one less due to Tx's passing-take exception when another of us is demeaned by someone with a fraction of their resume.

There's an argument if you want to take it up. Hope you're satisfied.

 

[Plathfan]

or even hated it so much that they felt compelled to riff off of it

A crucial point! In most cases, writers feel compelled to continue others' work not out of admiration, but rather due to a perceived need to "fix" it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Having said that, out in the mainstream a ton of 'content' creators make bank from doing covers of other people's songs and from what I hear it falls under parody-even though they are serious efforts-and as long as they credit the original source, its legal.

I see it this way, if Gene Simmons, the most litigious person in the industry can't stop people from making money on covering Kiss songs, it has to be allowed.

This isn't true. Covering another person's song is not a parody, unless you're Weird Al Yankovic writing "Amish Paradise" as a spoof of "Gangster's Paradise." When you cover another person's song, you do so pursuant to a mechanical license, usually by paying a license fee to one of a number of organizations like Harry Fox, which handle the distribution of the license fees to the correct copyright owner. A mechanical license is mandatory under US copyright law, which means that a person has a legal right to cover a Kiss song without Gene Simmons's permission so long as they pay the appropriate license fee through the appropriate medium.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Now you're just being a shit about it.

I'm playing, and I don't apologize for that.

I've been polite (enough) and I haven't attacked anyone other than saying that their ideas are wrong.

If that makes me a shit, then hear I gladly sit, Shit Queen of Shit Mountain, I guess.

Kieth is a big boy, and I didn't hurt him. That said, being around a long time doesn't automatically make him correct on matters of morality, which is the topic at hand here.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think that if you attempt to contact the author, and they do not respond after a reasonable amount of time AND they have nothing in their bio or story forwards forbidding it,

What's "a reasonable amount of time" though? We had a thread on this topic not long ago where someone had written another chapter (for their own story) after ten years, something like that, yet we've also had wannabe follow-on writers think six months is long enough. "Well, I tried." Not hard enough, I'd say.

I've got a story here that's eight years old, and I have every intention of writing a final chapter for it, eventually. It might be another five years, who knows. But I don't need to badge it to tell anyone that, because it's mine.

I think you're wrong expecting writers to put up a, "Do not revive this story" notice. It seems to me that you're missing a key point about Intellectual Property - the word property. I own it in my stories, and it remains owned for seventy years after my death. That's the law. Does it always get enforced? No, but that doesn't give you the right to take it over; just as I've got no right to enter your house and move the furniture.

Regardless, if I take something that belongs to you without asking, that's theft, right? Why is writing any different? I'm astonished that there's a bunch of people who think that it's okay to take a story and bolt another ending onto it, just because they want to.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

(For the record, I am making jokes, but I'm not trolling. The opinions I'm expressing are my genuine thoughts, just presented in a playful manner)

 

[SimonDoom]

And you think that fanfictions with large, popular IP's are icky as well? I just wanna understand your thoughts, because I think it's crazy to refuse to write a work because of the possible objections of a possibile dead person.

I'm not delving into the famous author fanfiction issue, because I think it's completely separate. Most fanfiction out there probably is copyright infringement as a matter of law, but it's also true that most fanfiction authors get away with it. So you can do with that whatever you want. The issue for Literotica authors is quite different. I think considerations of respect and courtesy count for much more here than with regard to famous author fanfiction, where you can do whatever the law lets you get away with.

 

[SimonDoom]

(For the record, I am making jokes, but I'm not trolling. The opinions I'm expressing are my genuine thoughts, just presented in a playful manner)

I get that. People can disagree without being nasty about it.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I'm astonished that there's a bunch of people who think that it's okay to take a story and bolt another ending onto it, just because they want to.

Continue being astonished, I guess ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

You bring up the law, but I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with morality... and I don't think it's immoral to use peoples ideas IF YOU CREDIT THEM... and you've taken reasonable steps to get their permission, which have all failed.

What constitutes a reasonable amount of time? Each person would have to decide for themselves, but I would say that anything less than 5 years is unacceptable. That's my personal entirely arbitrary line.

It all comes down to differences in opinion, and I'm sure we'll never agree, but since I know you don't want your stories added to, I'd never do it to you.

But I think it might be polite to let others no that since it matters so much to you. No harm in putting up no trespassing signs, yeah?

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm playing, and I don't apologize for that.

I've been polite (enough) and I haven't attacked anyone other than saying that their ideas are wrong.

If that makes me a shit, then hear I gladly sit, Shit Queen of Shit Mountain, I guess.

Kieth is a big boy, and I didn't hurt him. That said, being around a long time doesn't automatically make him correct on matters of morality, which is the topic at hand here.

No one here seems to be taking this in a playful manner, so maybe you need to look up the word. Or maybe you know you're being snarky and are now being passive aggressive because someone called BS. What I see here is the same contentious discussion the topic usually triggers, and you knew that coming in, but oh, hey, just kidding.

This is a free site, no one gets paid more than anyone else, everything is subjective, etc etc...

But your ego, which is often on display, is not commensurate with your accomplishments, which makes you come across as someone who shouldn't be taking 'playful' shots at others.

As for being a big boy, your defensiveness over your stories and need for affirmation shows you might need to head out and pick up a pair of adult pants for yourself.

You don't post that you want an argument unless you really want one. Silly me for thinking you were 'just playing" Until its time not to play.

To be clear, I'm not playing, just tired of shot takers not being able to take a shot from anyone else.

 

[StillStunned]

(For the record, I am making jokes, but I'm not trolling. The opinions I'm expressing are my genuine thoughts, just presented in a playful manner)

For a lot of people this isn't a playful matter. Plenty of writers have a strong attachment to their characters and stories, and joking about it probably comes across as dismissive and insulting.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

No one here seems to be taking this in a playful manner, so maybe you need to look up the word. Or maybe you know you're being snarky and are now being passive aggressive because someone called BS. What I see here is the same contentious discussion the topic usually triggers, and you knew that coming in, but oh, hey, just kidding.

This is a free site, no one gets paid more than anyone else, everything is subjective, etc etc...

But your ego, which is often on display, is not commensurate with your accomplishments, which makes you come across as someone who shouldn't be taking 'playful' shots at others.

As for being a big boy, your defensiveness over your stories and need for affirmation shows you might need to head out and pick up a pair of adult pants for yourself.

You don't post that you want an argument unless you really want one. Silly me for thinking you were 'just playing" Until its time not to play.

Dude, did you read the original post? I made a joke about stealing people's characters and putting them in a multiverse story. I've been playing from the start. I can't believe some people didn't get that.

As far as "playful" shots... I can't imagine that I've said anything that crosses any lines.

Kieth told me I was wrong, so I said the exact same thing back.

To be clear, I'm not playing, just tired of shot takers not being able to take a shot from anyone else.

To be clear, I'm joking about writing a story which steals everyone's characters, and I'm (trying) to be playfully snarky about the rest, even while I express my true feelings.

I don't think I said anything which should upset anyone, and I'm not upset at what has been said to me.

The worst "shots" that came at me were from you and Kieth, and I haven't gotten upset at either of you. I feel like I'm handling the shots thrown my way well enough.