"I had no choice" has already begun.

[PersonalFavors]

You don't mention White European Americans. Because they're just 'Americans'.

Because you see anyone who isn't of White European heritage as not being a real American. Because you're racist. And you were racist before it was cool.

6th generation American. American.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘The very most any American …’

In other words …

‘…arrange and orient the incompetent voting, unwashed masses in such a way that they propel 6 digit [annual earning] petit bourgeois Democrats into power, produce wealth for us, and believe this is the best of all possible worlds.’

The more you wince, squirm and try to spin ‘safe’ places for ostensibly “left” of the SDA / NDP rabble [i.e., go-nowhere political traps for the working class], the more apparent it is that you are terrified by the emergence of proletarian, revolutionary fervor.

The Province of New Brunswick had a very capable Trotskyist group which raised class consciousness substantially and shifted discourse genuinely leftward. Sept. 12, ‘75, Ed Broadbent took the Nominally Democratic Party ‘leadership,’ and in less than one year, the Waffle group was disintegrating — NOT because ‘it can’t be done’ [as you alleged here time and again], but because pseudo-left social democrats as Broadbent and yourself are willing to die to prevent it. Why?

You are not working class. You don’t support working class interests or policies.

Petit bourgeois social democrats and bourgeois republicans are in a competition to defeat the working class. At stake is WHICH gets the lion’s share of surplus value extracted from worker toil.

All three social classes are locked in irresolvable struggle based on essential, class antagonisms. Now, at the worst possible hour, the proletariat awakens to this.

The SOLE class which will articulate and defend worker rights and interests is the working class itself.

This means you’re increasingly left on your own. Now I’ve told you before that these things were coming. Yet you peddle the same lines ad infinitum. I have to assume that you must be trying to convince yourself. It certainly isn’t doing anything for me.

 

[Politruk]

In other words …

‘…arrange and orient the incompetent voting, unwashed masses in such a way that they propel 6 digit [annual earning] petit bourgeois Democrats into power, produce wealth for us, and believe this is the best of all possible worlds.’

The more you wince, squirm and try to spin ‘safe’ places for ostensibly “left” of the SDA / NDP rabble [i.e., go-nowhere political traps for the working class], the more apparent it is that you are terrified by the emergence of proletarian, revolutionary fervor.

I'm not terrified of it, I despair of ever seeing it.

 

[Politruk]

Now, at the worst possible hour, the proletariat awakens to this.

They never will in your lifetime.

 

[Politruk]

The SOLE class which will articulate and defend worker rights and interests is the working class itself.

The point of a classless society should not be to make everyone proletarian. It should be to make everyone bourgeois. Bourgeois is objectively better. Only bourgeoisie ever had the mental capacity to conceive of socialism. All the important socialists of history were of bourgeois or landed-gentry origin. Engels was bourgeois, Marx was petty-bourgeois, Lenin and Mao were gentry.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘The point of a classless society…’

The point of YOUR society is that you will die in the class into which you were born.

Without social revolution, this won’t change.

 

[Politruk]

The point of YOUR society is that you will die in the class into which you were born.

Without social revolution, this won’t change.

Then it won't change. The kind of revolution you have in mind is impossible.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

Then it won't change. The kind of revolution you have in mind is impossible.

In which case, it shouldn’t matter to you.

 

[Politruk]

In which case, it shouldn’t matter to you.

What matters to me is possible improvement -- turning the U.S. into a social democracy.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

‘What matters to me …’

What matters to me is the dictatorship of the proletariat. But again, that doesn’t bother you at all.

Yet organizations in the general orbit of the Democratic Party strive daily to repress worker struggle, to isolate and defeat workers, to defeat their work actions and strikes, to keep details from workers, etc.

You’re so confident that workers will never advance their interests that your Democratic Party ‘leaders’ in the WH conspired with a Democratic Party oriented union, and Railway owners to make a December strike illegal.

Few are going to fall for your ‘it will never happen’ line when everything democrats do contradict your line.

Incidentally, I am aware that Democrats much prefer the term ‘Democratic’ when their leaders, members or Party is referenced. I also know that GOP and its fascist following refuse to use the term as an intentional slap.

Know that there are also those who find the term distasteful when applied to your leaders, members, policies, campaigns, etc. out of respect for the premise and practice of democracy.

You really don’t have any sense of the extent to which your glorious ‘Party’ is despised. If you did, you might not be so nearly cavalier about the premise of proletarian revolution.

If you knew nothing more about this tendency than you find here, you know that your faction would not fair well. As for us, we fully expect that many … Democratic … Party members would flee to stand beside the GOP to attack the working class as one.

 

[YDB95]

Excellent point.

We live in a great, free land.

Dissent could destroy that land.

To preserve freedumb, we prohibit dissent.

Not what I said, not what I meant. There's a time for taking the Democrats to task for not being as far left as we'd like. When they were the one and only plausible alternative to Twitler was not that time.

 

[Politruk]

What matters to me is the dictatorship of the proletariat.

That is not even logically possible. A social class cannot be a dictator. Only an individual person can be a dictator.

 

[Bray123]

6th generation American. American.

Exactly, thanks for playing.

Not 'Black American'. Not 'Native American'. You're white, so 'American'.

 

[Lance_Castro]

Yesterday, CNN interviewed Arab Americans who voted for Trump after they heard his remarks about Gaza.

They looked sick. And they weakly pushed back with "I had no choice" to justify their support of him. (You could tell they didn't buy their own excuse - because it was garbage.)

Expect to hear "I had no choice" more and more, from every group. If you still love your country, give such folk - meaning any Trump voter - no quarter. They did this in 2024, not 2016.

Otherwise, they'll never learn, and the mistakes will continue to harm our nation.

The election triggered roary quite nicely.

Lol

 

[Holy_Seduction]

Not what I said, not what I meant.

Of course it isn’t what you meant. I was combining, facetiousness and playfulness.

The point I have been making by way of suppressed premise is that in context of our dual, pro-capitalist parties, the effect for the proletarian class is that of a one party system with a hard right option, and an extremist hard right faction.

You say ‘not that time.’

I reply, ‘no better time!’

This system must go.

 

[RoryN]

I also do not believe every single Trump voter knowingly voted for a racist dictatorship

Would have agreed with you in 2016.

In 2024, it was literally the theme of his campaign. It's what he promised his voters. They also had an additional 8 years of straightforward evidence of his racism and dictatorship aspirations in front of them.

I'm guessing you need to be in denial in order to maintain relationships you have. Most of us are having to do the same.

 

[Lazaran]

Would have agreed with you in 2016.

In 2024, it was literally the theme of his campaign. It's what he promised his voters. They also had an additional 8 years of straightforward evidence of his racism and dictatorship aspirations in front of them.

I'm guessing you need to be in denial in order to maintain relationships you have. Most of us are having to do the same.

I had that attitude towards MAGAt voters since 2016.

There was PLENTY known about DonOld by the time the election rolled around to disqualify that orange POS, yet MAGAt voters STILL voted for DonOld.

Anyone who EVER voted for DonOld has some defect. And ESPECIALLY anyone who voted for DonOld in 2024.

Side note:

Those who didn’t vote for Hillary in 2016 or Kamala in 2024, and who voted third party instead, or didn’t vote at all, have a defect as well.

Anyone who didn’t see what was / is coming with President Musk (and DonOld) in charge (especially with the SCOTUS ruling on presidential immunity) lacks some basic awareness and self-preservation instinct, or they are demented anarchists that WANT to see President Musk (and DonOld) “burn it all down”.

Either way - FUCK THEM (anyone who EVER voted for DonOld) ALL TO HELL.

 

[YDB95]

Of course it isn’t what you meant. I was combining, facetiousness and playfulness.

The point I have been making by way of suppressed premise is that in context of our dual, pro-capitalist parties, the effect for the proletarian class is that of a one party system with a hard right option, and an extremist hard right faction.

You say ‘not that time.’

I reply, ‘no better time!’

This system must go.

If you believe Harris would have been no better for the working class than Trump, you need your head examined.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

If you believe Harris would have been no better for the working class than Trump, you need your head examined.

YDB95:

Many aspersions and insults to state of mind and slights to intellect are cast routinely on this and countless other fora. But you don’t find those remarks coming from me.

It is not simply that indecorous remarks have no place in civic discourse. Nor is it that their use reveals an undisciplined mind.

Constitutional norms over two centuries old have eroded in past years. Under present arrangements, that constitution is, in effect, a dead letter. The United States is passing from existence. However …

Institutions still lumber about. Daily agendas still include meetings, actions, decisions and orders. Agencies still do things even if more on diktats issued by fiat than protocol.

Many won’t see what is happening until law breaks down, desperation turns to mass migration and survivalism, plus social fragmentation, humanitarian crisis, etc., etc.

Herein lies the problem with degraded rhetoric and partisanship and the ‘politics’ of insult. If THAT is our response as society moves to the disaster I describe, it means that we are politically illiterate.

As I see it, that is not a trait favoring survival in our day. Recall why dinosaurs don’t exist.

Do we agree?

 

[Politruk]

Recall why dinosaurs don’t exist.

Something to do with an asteroid.

 

[Lazaran]

YDB95:

Many aspersions and insults to state of mind and slights to intellect are cast routinely on this and countless other fora. But you don’t find those remarks coming from me.

It is not simply that indecorous remarks have no place in civic discourse. Nor is it that their use reveals an undisciplined mind.

Constitutional norms over two centuries old have eroded in past years. Under present arrangements, that constitution is, in effect, a dead letter. The United States is passing from existence. However …

Institutions still lumber about. Daily agendas still include meetings, actions, decisions and orders. Agencies still do things even if more on diktats issued by fiat than protocol.

Many won’t see what is happening until law breaks down, desperation turns to mass migration and survivalism, plus social fragmentation, humanitarian crisis, etc., etc.

Herein lies the problem with degraded rhetoric and partisanship and the ‘politics’ of insult. If THAT is our response as society moves to the disaster I describe, it means that we are politically illiterate.

As I see it, that is not a trait favoring survival in our day. Recall why dinosaurs don’t exist.

Do we agree?

Holy_Shitsuction wants to have civil discourse as Rome burns, AND after Holy_Shitsuction contributed to the outbreak of the fire.

GTFOH

FOAD

TIA

 

[Holy_Seduction]

Something to do with an asteroid.

Yes, but in popular presentation…they couldn’t adapt.

 

[Politruk]

Yes, but in popular presentation…they couldn’t adapt.

Assuming "The United States is passing from existence" is not going to help us adapt better.

 

[YDB95]

Constitutional norms over two centuries old have eroded in past years. Under present arrangements, that constitution is, in effect, a dead letter. The United States is passing from existence.

If that's true (and I'm not saying I agree that it is), it's at least in part due to the fact that juuuuust enough left-of-center voters are so holier-than-thou that they can't do what everyone else does and vote for a not-great but not-terrible candidate when s/he is the only one who can stop a genuinely horrible one. It has now happened three times since 2000, and we'll never know what might have been accomplished (and what bad things could have been avoided) if it hadn't. It's all well and good to take the Democrats to task for not staking out enough left-of-center ground - I agree, they have been doing a lousy job of that! - and I am all for pushing for them to give it a rest with the mushy middle and actually be a progressive party for a change. But there is absolutely positively NO excuse for having not voted for Harris when the entire world knew what the only alternative would be, period.

 

[dmallord]

... and from the ashes of the Phoenix what shall rise to right the wrongs? Is there to be no strengthening of that mighty document or is it now just a piece of flammable parchment?

YDB95:

Many aspersions and insults to state of mind and slights to intellect are cast routinely on this and countless other fora. But you don’t find those remarks coming from me.

It is not simply that indecorous remarks have no place in civic discourse. Nor is it that their use reveals an undisciplined mind.

Constitutional norms over two centuries old have eroded in past years. Under present arrangements, that constitution is, in effect, a dead letter. The United States is passing from existence. However …

Institutions still lumber about. Daily agendas still include meetings, actions, decisions and orders. Agencies still do things even if more on diktats issued by fiat than protocol.

Many won’t see what is happening until law breaks down, desperation turns to mass migration and survivalism, plus social fragmentation, humanitarian crisis, etc., etc.

Herein lies the problem with degraded rhetoric and partisanship and the ‘politics’ of insult. If THAT is our response as society moves to the disaster I describe, it means that we are politically illiterate.

As I see it, that is not a trait favoring survival in our day. Recall why dinosaurs don’t exist.

Do we agree?

Your doomsday rhetoric is somewhat disturbing. Therefore, I do not agree with everything you say or predict so fatalistically.

Your concerns about constitutional erosion and institutional decline are not without merit—history shows that no society remains static, and governance challenges are real. However, declaring that "the United States is passing from existence" is an overstatement that overlooks the resilience and adaptability of democratic systems.

Yes, institutions face pressures—from partisan division, executive overreach, and shifting legal interpretations—but the fact that they continue to function, however imperfectly, is evidence that democracy is not a "dead letter." The U.S. has weathered existential threats before: a Civil War, the Great Depression, world wars, and domestic upheavals. Each time, reformers, activists, and engaged citizens helped pull the country back from the brink. We are on, in my opinion, the cusp of another such domestic upheaval.

The real danger is not just political illiteracy but fatalism—the idea that decline and collapse is inevitable. Societies that endure do so not by lamenting dysfunction but by confronting it with resolve. Rather than dwell on the politics of insult, we can focus on rebuilding civic trust, strengthening democratic norms, and engaging in meaningful debate.

Dinosaurs didn’t survive because they couldn't adapt. But humans aren’t dinosaurs—we can recognize challenges, innovate, and evolve. If history tells us anything, collapse is not a given, but a choice. Whether we retreat into despair or fight for a better future is the question.