I hate SUV's.....

[Elizabeth]

Didn't I do this thread before?

Yes, you did.

 

[Topher]

bourgeois assholes

I find that it is the typical bourgeois American asshole that owns an SUV. This is the same jerk/bitch who parks in the fire lane with the hazards on to "run in" to exchange something. These are the same redneck and/or frat guys who park in the COMPACT ONLY lot at my univeristy (damn parking attendants don't tow/ticket them either). In other words, it is (typically) people who think they are privledged in some manner who conspicuously consume such monstrously ostentatious contraptions as SUVs.
Same goes for Cadillacs.
It's a mark of priveledge for the upper-middle class nouveau riche (or, at least, nouvel aisé).
Oh, and I agree, SUVs are ugly and so are Cadillacs and any other road boats. Cadillacs are especially ugly with those finnish tailight slits though.

I love my 1990 Celica (when I can find it in a parking lot drowning between two Landstalkers).

 

[Lost Cause]

Generally, I am annoyed by anything having four wheels. They are an excuse for those who do not have the coordination to ride a motorcycle to be a danger to we that can! On a practical sense, they can be useful short distance transportation during bad weather, or hauling a litter of kids. Other than that....lead, follow, or get out of the way!

 

[horny_giraffe]

I don't have anything against SUV's per se, but if you don't actually need one I think it is very wasteful. Evidently, there are so many drivers using their SUV's to commute that one of the big automakers is making a four-wheel steering version so that they can park more easily. Personally, I'd be ashamed of myself if I commuted more than three hours a week in an SUV when a mini-van could serve just as well.

 

[Texan]

This thread is really funny

I must be one of the "assholes" you guys are talking about.

I have a GMC Suburban, a Cadillac Seville, a Jeep Wrangler, and 2 pickups. (I also have a wife, and three of my 4 sons are over 17). I'm trying to imagine vacationing with my family of six in a Subaru. Now there's a fun thought.

I also have boat, horse and utility trailers. I'm trying to imagine pulling one of my trailers with a "Celica", that's a funny, dangerous and expensive image.

Of course, I suppose you would prefer that I lived in an apartment because I really don't need all the room I have in this house; and of course, I don't really need all this land, maybe I should give it to the homeless. I probably don't need my cellphone, after all, I could stop at a payphone. And I don't really need 4 couputers in my house, I could make everyone share one computer. And I don't really need a riding lawnmower, I could make the boys use a push mower.... and it doesn't really need a motor, afterall, it's only a few acres.

And since I don't really need all this stuff, I don't really need the income it takes, in order to have it. I guess those nine years in college and grad school were wasted.

When I graduated from high school, maybe I should have just said, "What the hell..... and got a job at McDonalds"........

Would you like fries with that????? I see you already have "whine".

 

[Azwed]

Ouch that was good.

 

[DriveSouth]

I'm a

married, 42 yearold man with a wife and 5 kids. 1 college freshman, 1 HS junior cheerleader, 1 HS sophomore offense/defensive lineman, 1 JRHI trumpet player and 1 pre-schooler.

Not giving up my suburban! Totally un-fair for anyone to think I should. It is not a luxury, it is a necessity...

 

[Topher]

yes, Texan

From your choice of moniker even, I can pretty much guess that you might be one of those typical bourgeois American assholes. Your post confirms this.

If someone really needs and SUV-like vehicle (say, a Park Ranger, for example) then I wouldn't begrudge him his choice in transportation. A station wagon or a minivan can haul a bunch of brats around. An SUV in the garage, brought out to go camping, could be justified as well. A big family that goes camping a lot and is not *that* well off - well, sure, cut your costs and buy an SUV as your family vehicle. Such behavior doen't explain all of the SUVs on American roads though.

You have two pickups; I'm sure one of them could handle your yacht and/or your mobile barn.

Like you point out, however, these are your life choices.
These single college men, these housewives, and, certainly, these
brain-dead daddy's-girl sorority sisters don't need SUVs, however.

I think the disparity in size between a car like mine and an SUV, multiplied by millions, is a problem, but I could deal with that if the ownership of an SUV didn't often go hand-in-hand with that obnoxious sense of entitlement.

I own a cell phone, but I don't use it while driving (do you?).
I don't own more than one computer at the moment, but I have done and can imagine it again because I am a grad student in CS. We should all probably give more than we do to the homeless (drunks or not, they deserve just as much or more welfare than the corporate elite). I own 40 acres of land but my family would kill me if I sold it.
I always use my turn signal. I always park legally. I always yield the right-of-way to pedestrians. I never yak while driving. Be honest, and I mean *really* honest. Do you SUV drivers do these things? If you are conscientious, then my question is: do you disagree that SUV drivers are more often guilty of violating these rules of courtesy?

The bottom line is: this is capitalist America. It's all about conspicuous consumption. Consume as much as you want. Buy jewelry, do your nails, gobble up huge tracts of land, buy 3 or 4 houses, talk on 3 cellphones at the same time while reading e-mail on your palmtop. Whatever. But when I have to share the road with your consumption, when your showing off takes up an inordinate amount of public space, and when you have a sense of priveledge that goes hand-in-hand with that choice that makes you act irresponsibly and unconscientiously in a way the affects me, then I am going to complain.

 

[login]

I don't understand why nearly every time the subject of SUV's come up, some people feel like SUV owners should justify owning them.

I own one.

I don't need it.

I like it.

I'm the one paying for it.

Get over it.

Asshole drivers drive all kinds of different cars and trucks. The little old man that can barely see to the end of his nose peering at the world through the gap between his steering wheel and the top of his dash. The freshly licensed teen bebopping down the road, oblivious to everything except the 110db of hip hop booming through the speakers in his/her overgrown-rollerskate-pimpdaddy-mobile. The "soccer-mom" talking on her cell phone while she's using the rear view mirror to adjust her makeup. All of them are dangerous, but what they're driving isn't what makes them dangerous. It's how they're driving.

 

[Jersey Citizen]

SUVs are fine

in Texas, on the interstate, up in the mountains, but please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, don't bring another one into Hoboken!

 

[MidnightAngel]

I don't understand why nearly every time the subject of SUV's come up, some people feel like SUV owners should justify owning them.

I own one.

I don't need it.

I like it.

I'm the one paying for it.

Get over it.

*Standing up and clapping* YES, just HELL YES!

Oh, and Topher......I'll bet my "SUV" (as it's classified) is the same size or even smaller than your Toyota Celica. Where does that put the "massively huge, gas-guzzling SUV" argument?

 

[Topher]

true, true

Yes login, but what I am asserting is that there is a correlation between the choice of vehicle and the driving behavior.
SUV owners tend to be bourgeoisie, with all the attendant attributes, more often than say, Honda Civic drivers.

Not *every* SUV owner is a jerk; my best friend (a girl) owns an Explorer. I've ridden around in it a bit and it's nice!

What a difference to actually be able to see more than one car ahead in traffic!

She has two big dogs and a bf she hauls around in it. She doesn't *really* need it, and she's heard me bitch about SUVs so much I think she would buy something else if she had to do it over.

But my point is that the imposing size, couple with the personality of the typical owner, is annoying.

 

[Texan]

Topher... I was once young, opinionated and knew everything. I live with three boys who are that way now, so I am patient with you, even while you call me an "asshole". I try to remind my sons that I am 25(plus) years older than they, and I didn't stop learning when I got out of school.

If you are typical, you will become offended by what you perceive as my condescending attitude. I just wish there were a way that you could save this conversation for about 10 or 15 years and read it again. I don't stand a chance in hell of changing your opinions now, nor do I have any obligation to defend my own.

The extent to which I do NOT fit your stereotype is laughable, but you have your mind made up, so enjoy your prejudices before life sucks the truth from them....

 

[Topher]

btw

If you don't feel you need to justify yourself then don't.
I can only conclude that anyone who replies to this thread
*does* feel the need to justify himself ...

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Mae13

What I wanted was something that can go anywhere, hold a ton of shit, I can sleep in comfortably when I'm on a road trip and it's either too nasty to sleep outside or I'm not somewhere I'd feel safe doing that.


Well, I'd say that you are just citing myths. 4x4s cannot go anywhere. Sure, they have decent ground clearance, but their 4WD systems, responsible for the distribution of power, are far less sophisticated than systems found on most all-wheel-drive sports cars. 4WDs do not handle like rally cars, but here in Oz most of the local yokels think that they do. Serves 'em right when they collect a tree and the ladder frame mashes their legs.

Also, in terms of space, there is not so much usable room as you think. I have compared the carrying capacity of two popular models: first, the Mitsubishi Pajero (incidentally pajero is Spanish slang for "jerking off" in some parts), the largest 4WD available in this country, and secondly the Holden Acclaim wagon, a standard family car. Now, some family friends were boasting about their new 4WD, and trying to fit a large table into their Pajero. No matter how they turned it, no go. We sugguested that we take it in the Acclaim. Despite their protests of "if it won't go in the Pajero, there's no way...", we slid it in first go with space to spare on either side. Do some experiments if you doubt me. The problem is that most 4WDs don't have a cargo barrier, so all the space above the rear seats is wasted. Also, the rear seats rarely fold down as neatly as those of a standard family station wagon.

Personally I would go for, say a Subaru AWD wagon for all of the above points, but don't have a problem with your 4WD as long as you recognise that it is a truck and should be driven accordingly (not like an English truckie though!). Most of the serious landowners down here drive AWD utes ("utilities": umm, pickups I guess).


I know that while people are crying cuz they can't get over the snowbank into the parking lot cuz CE STILL hasn't plowed it out, I can march my happy ass right in and not have to tromp through an extra few hundred yards of snow. I like being able to get down that rutty nasty road to find a secluded place to park it to start a good pack-in camping trip. And no, I *don't* tear up the environment with it. It all works out pretty good.


Ever seen a 4WD system fail to perform? On low-traction surfaces they can get seriously out of their depth. Then again, they are still better in these cases than a normal 2wd car.



SUV's are only as bad as their owners are.


Yes, a good point.


And forgive me if I don't have sympathy for a higher mortality rate for the numbnuts on the road that can't drive worth a fuck and go around hitting the decent drivers.


So when somebody screws up in a SUV (as you call them, though where the "Sport" comes from I'm not sure), they have the right to compromise the safety of others? Of the people I know, three have been involved in two-vehicle collisions. I was one: a lecturer in a sedan failed to yield to my right-of-way and turned in front of me at about 60 km/h. Despite the fact that I was very, very close, we both reduced speed significantly and the collision was light. Nobody was injured. Second: A bimbo in a Jeep Grand Cherokee failed to yield (same situation, but at a major intersection with lights). She not only failed to see a thing until too late, but was unable significantly to reduce speed. Due to high COG and mass, she drove right over the top of my friend's 1980 Honda Prelude (owned from new, BTW) that had already come to a stop. His diaphragm was ruptured and he sustained internal injuries, but survived after a lengthy stay in hospital. The third was a uni friend who drove a poor man's compact (a Ford Laser). He was at fault, and turned out in front of a 4WD. He was trying to join traffic on a major road and misjudged the speed at which the 4WD was moving. By the time he was struck, the truck was moving less than 50 km/h (maybe 30 mph?). The driver's side was hit; he was killed immediately by the bullbar; the truck continued pushing him down the road for some distance. In this case, the 4WD owner escaped likely minor injury, but at what cost? At low speed, modern cars protect their occupants well from impact with other cars. At high speed, you're pretty fucked regardless. 4WDs are the ultimate in selfish transport. Oh yeah, and 4WDs are LESS SAFE than modern cars in impact with other large vehicles or fixed roadside hazards. Also, you have to consider primary (active) safety: SUVs have inferior handling, acceleration and braking. These vehicles are more dangerous for almost everyone: pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists and any other road user.

Overall you have to admit that safety is NOT a point in favour of 4WDs. Who are the decent drivers? Don't about 90% of people think they're above average?


I've been run off the road and/or hit by a small mazda truck, a caddy, a lincoln, an accord, a volkswagen bug (think that kid was stoned, lol!) in my life. Never by an SUV. Around here, most folks either drive a full-size truck or an SUV of some kind...but ya know, it's not really a problem since they also are smart enough to know how to drive in bad weather (Like right now, snowin like hell, ice on the roads and 50mph gusting winds, wheeeee!)


Well, in other places where poor weather is not common, there are plenty of losers who get the God complex in their machines of death. In these cases, big trucks with rigid frames, bullbars and high COG are extreme hazards.

You sound like a sensible driver. In a smaller car with good handling, don't you think that you'd be able to avoid those dangerous situations far more easily?


All that said, I personally don't care for the enormous monstrosities like the Excursion/Navigator/etc...mostly because of the pretentiousness of it, and the fact that I still don't know anyone that would buy an $80,000 SUV and actually take it anywhere NEAR offroad. They are wasteful, oversized (and more useless for it).


Pretentious relative to what? Unless you live on a rural property, there really is no difference in pretentiousness between a $40k SUV and an $80k.

Oh well, best of luck in keeping the rubber side down, and try not to hurt anyone.

http://poseur.4x4.org/

 

[Topher]

Texan, I would remind you that you concluded that I would probably think you are an asshole. I was just agreeing with you

My whole life, because of my sometimes extreme opinions, self-proclaimed more-enlightened-than-thou types have condescended to me. I'm not by any means enlightened, but, one of the things I have learned in my short, puerile 31 years is that those who call themselves enlightened, or imply that they somehow are, are usually those that are farthest from it.


After 15 years of condescent I have not changed, ok, I have not changed much, so I see little likelihood of its happening now.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Generally, I am annoyed by anything having four wheels. They are an excuse for those who do not have the coordination to ride a motorcycle to be a danger to we that can! On a practical sense, they can be useful short distance transportation during bad weather, or hauling a litter of kids. Other than that....lead, follow, or get out of the way!

He says that as he climbs in his full sized Dodge Ramcharger SUV and roars off to work.

 

[Texan]

Texan, I would remind you that you concluded that I would probably think you are an asshole. I was just agreeing with you

My whole life, because of my sometimes extreme opinions, self-proclaimed more-enlightened-than-thou types have condescended to me. I'm not by any means enlightened, but, one of the things I have learned in my short, puerile 31 years is that those who call themselves enlightened, or imply that they somehow are, are usually those that are farthest from it.


After 15 years of condescent I have not changed, ok, I have not changed much, so I see little likelihood of its happening now.

Topher... Actually, you are older than I expected. My perception was based upon your comment about being in grad school and the passion with which you posted. (You see, I have my stereotypes as well.)

Just a comment. There is a difference between "enlightenment" and "experience". I make no claims to enlightment, only a little more experience. I'm not sure about the definition of enlightenment. I would think it would include openmindedness, tolerance and patience with the opinions of others.

I am honestly curious about something. Do you feel the same angst when you see SUVs and .... say, a Lexus or a Mercedes sportscar or a Porsche? Is your derisive passion stimulated only because of vehicle size and "space requirements", or is it also stimulated by the "price tag" of the vehicle?

I know you said your real argument is with the "attitude" and actions of the driver, but do you feel that attitude is displayed by drivers of ALL expensive vehicles or only SUV drivers?

I'm just wondering if your attitudes are prompted by "environmental" concerns or by a disdain of the "bourgeois" nature of capitalism?

 

[SexyChele]

Re: true, true

Yes login, but what I am asserting is that there is a correlation between the choice of vehicle and the driving behavior.
SUV owners tend to be bourgeoisie, with all the attendant attributes, more often than say, Honda Civic drivers.

Topher - just hoping you can help me out on this one, hon. In reference to your above statement. I own a Honda CRV, which is truly nothing more than a Civic that comes in the shape of an SUV.

So......would I be classified as an asshole SUV driver? Or am I a member of the more lowly, yet infinitely more likeable (according to you) Civic drivers?

Be careful there, Topher. You might want to classify exactly "which" SUVs you are so vehemently against. And I almost think you follow the old saying, "He that protests too much...."


Oh, but this thread has gotten hysterical!

 

[Azwed]

Re: Re: true, true

Oh, but this thread has gotten hysterical!

They always do.

I swear if i hear the term "bourgeois" one more time I am going to run over his Celica.

 

[login]

Re: Re: true, true

Topher - just hoping you can help me out on this one, hon.

Pay no attention to the petard the lady is holding behind her back. It only looks like your's, Topher.

 

[Topher]

Good question Texan.

I had a feeling that I was older than you thought, and for the very reasons you mentioned. After undergrad I slacked around a bit and lived and studied and worked in Europe because I knew I probably wouldn't be able to later on when I would have been enslaved by the corporate world. So, yeah, I am a little old for grad school.

For SUVs it is the combination I think that sends me over the edge.

I think Mercedes, and, especially, Lexus drivers are typically bourgeois assholes too, but I can see good reasons to purchase those cars aside from status. At least I can see around a Mercedes. A car like this may be purchased for status, but at least such a choice is reasonable overall and has less impact on my environment. Hell, I would love if everyone could afford to drive a well-designed car.

I can identify with purchasers of the BMW and Audi roadsters, and I can identify with Porsche owners. I have respect for attractive, well-built cars. Even if the owners are assholes they at least have taste. When I get my MS I may even buy and Audi TT or whatever it is called, but I'm not an expert on various cars' good and bad points so I will shop around first. I just like the way that Audi looks! If a Toyota or Honda is just as good in my book I will buy one of those. That's granting that there will still be cars being made by the time I get a job. I don't think having money automatically makes you a jerk. I hope to be comfortable one day. I've read a bit of this site that was cited above, and this person has thought about this issue way more than I have.
He has articulated the unformulated notions in my head about SUVs, and he has done what I haven't: he's researched the technical pros and cons. I haven't seen anything I disagree with yet there. Of special note: the love letters section and the letter from the "Texan":

http://poseur.4x4.org

Thanks to whomever posted the URL

 

[SexyChele]

Re: Re: Re: true, true

Pay no attention to the petard the lady is holding behind her back. It only looks like your's, Topher.

Gotta admit - always loved those men from Texas!

 

[Topher]

tant pis!

Vous n'aimez pas que je dise "bourgeois"?

Alors: bourgeoisbourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois b
ourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois bourgeois

Honda CR-V's are cute. A friend of mine just bought one and he is gay, poor, and very conscientious. I don't see how it is a very practical purchase, however, and I bet Expedition owners would agree with me.

 

[phrodeau]

My theory is that a person in a larger vehicle with air bags, ABS, proximity detectors, a fully paid comprehensive insurance policy, and adequate financial solvency is likely to be unconcerned about defensive driving, and is a danger to others.

Such folks should be required to hire a chauffeur, so that the controls are in the hands of someone with something to lose.