If I were God, I'd squash this man like a bug.

[Guest]

if not, you should be. I would certainly be willing...

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

The root of religion is ignorance.
Its tree is hatred.
The fruit of that tree is death.

Its notions like this that I think bring about far more harm than good in efforts to bridge the gap between misconceptions on all sides of the religious fence. It ranks up there with "Jesus hates fags" and other shock-value statements.

Reasonably speaking, the root of religion would likely be either "knowledge" or "peace" (pending whether one can say that metaphysical speculation or personal spiritual satsfaction are the point). Its tree would be the institution of priests or holy men/women, sacred places and times, etc. Its fruit would be the believers. I think that's a better justified analogy.

But who can expect logic from a religion that says eternal damnation awaits all who doubt God's infinite mercy?

That's not actually what it says. If you mean to rail against the interpretations of television personalities, feel free--but letting that represent "religion" is like judging atheists by using the anti-religious interpretations of child molesters who happen to be atheists. There is a necessary line of demarcation between religion and people who are religious (because blaming an idea for the people who carry it is a logical fallacy).

Seriously, Cloudy, I know there are religions that practice love and tolerance, not just preach it. There's just damned few around these parts.

I live in Mississippi. I am not Protestant, but I admit that I have seen food drives and Habitat for Humanity, charity fund raising, community soup kitchens... all sorts of loving and incredibly tolerant things come out of Baptist, Methodist, and other churches. I believe there is an abundance of goodwill coming from churches, to ignore that to prove a point is unfair to them. Having problems with the Falwell's of the world doesn't grant the right to berate a small town church whose worst crime is not having enough people or funds to affect more people with their generosities.

That isn't to say that injustices or intolerance haven't ever occured in the world, its saying that blaming whole religions for the acts of few is like blaming all Muslims for the acts of some guys who crashed some planes. It is unfair and truly unwarranted.

I hope you weren't too disappointed when you realized attempting a discussion with amicus was pointless.

I confess I don't understand his points very well--though I'm trying. He seems as bullheaded about the possibility that he is being irrational as a lot of others I've accidentally been arguing with on here that are religiously opposed to his point of view. Extremes at both ends, I suppose. Moderate chaps like me just never understand 'em.

Which, when you think about it, is the opposite of religion.

Religion is the service or worship of the divine and supernatural. By definition "thinking" isn't its opposite. Its opposite would be either serving or worshipping the natural or not-serving nor worshipping the divine. That's just logic.

I don't think religion is the root cause of war, but rather a tool used by politicians to incite people to war and keep them motivated when the body bags start arriving home in large numbers. [/quote

Bless you, shereads... I've been saying that for two days.

 

[The Mutt]

Once upon a time, people didn't know anything about anything. So they started making shit up. The guy who made up the coolest shit figured out he could get people to give him stuff for making up this shit. Especially when he told them that if they didn't, bad shit would happen to them.
Soon another guy started saying that his shit was better than the other guy's shit. Feeling his livelyhood threatened, Guy One told his followers that they had to kill Guy Two or they would be in deep shit.
And it has been ever thus. The root of religion is ignorance.

Christians always say, "don't blame us because Falwell is an idiot." But I don't see any other Christian leaders coming to the fore. Franklin Graham is a bigger dick than Falwell, and he is the President's spiritual guide. Ollie North just got through doing a book tour of Christian churches all across the country. You judge a people by the company they keep.

For all their talk of peace and love, a basic tenet of Christianity is "we are right, you are wrong, and if you don't start believing like we do, you get tortured for all eternity."

They also like to disavow all the genocide, rape and human sacrifice ordered by God in the Old Testament. (Not done in God's name, mind you. Ordered by Him from His own mouth.) Yet they still have those books as part of their Bible and use those books to justify their bigotry. Love the sinner, hate the sin is the big lie they use to allow them to oppress people and still feel morally superior.

Empathy is an evolved human trait. I do lots of good things for people. I don't do them because I fear that if I don't I get tossed into a lake of fire. I do them because making the world a better place is good for me, good for you, good for us all.

Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. When good people do bad things, you can bet religion is involved.
I stand by my statement. You can call me a bigot if you like, but bigotry is unreasoned hate. I've got lots of reasons to believe that religion has been and continues to be a blight on humankind. Reason leads us to the stars. Religion leads us back to the caves, where nobody knew anything about anything.

 

[Guest]

Once upon a time, people didn't know anything about anything. So they started making shit up.

That seems to be exactly what you are doing here. Why should I take into consideration such a puerile analogy. (Rhetorically put.)

Whether I agree with him or not, Joe W. writes clearly and makes sense.

Perdita

 

[The Mutt]

That seems to be exactly what you are doing here. Why should I take into consideration such a puerile analogy. (Rhetorically put.)

Whether I agree with him or not, Joe W. writes clearly and makes sense.

Perdita

Other than my little story about the pre-history of religion, just what do you believe I am making up?
And if you were going to tell a little tale about the origin of religion, how would you tell it?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by The Mutt
Other than my little story about the pre-history of religion, just what do you believe I am making up?
And if you were going to tell a little tale about the origin of religion, how would you tell it?

I'll bite... I think you're making this part up:

For all their talk of peace and love, a basic tenet of Christianity is "we are right, you are wrong, and if you don't start believing like we do, you get tortured for all eternity."

The basic tenet of Christianity is not, and has never been, what you just said. I would be very interested in your evidence for this, your references, and what Biblical or doctrinal facts you can offer... because it sounds like a made up conclusion without premises.

 

[shereads]

Extremes at both ends, I suppose. Moderate chaps like me just never understand 'em.

$10 says everybody in this thread thinks he or she is a moderate arguing against extremes. One of us is correct, and she's going to bed now.



Charge 'em and they scatter.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by shereads
$10 says everybody in this thread thinks he or she is a moderate arguing against extremes. One of us is correct, and she's going to bed now.



Charge 'em and they scatter.

That seems likely, yeah. I suppose its a matter of how many value-judgements one makes.

 

[Guest]

$10 says everybody in this thread thinks he or she is a moderate arguing against extremes. One of us is correct, and she's going to bed now.



Charge 'em and they scatter.

You're not gonna be handing out tip money from your G-string again, are you?

 

[The Mutt]

$10 says everybody in this thread thinks he or she is a moderate arguing against extremes. One of us is correct, and she's going to bed now.



Charge 'em and they scatter.

Extremism in defense of sanity is no vice. Extreme? I'm downright radical.
Send that $10 to the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

 

[The Mutt]

I'll bite... I think you're making this part up:



The basic tenet of Christianity is not, and has never been, what you just said. I would be very interested in your evidence for this, your references, and what Biblical or doctrinal facts you can offer... because it sounds like a made up conclusion without premises.

What, are you kidding? Just turn on your radio on a Sunday morning. And I said it was A basic tenet, not THE basic tenet.
I don't have a Bible handy, but Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father except through me." That is, only believers in Jesus go to heaven.
All throughout Paul's letters he says that you must give your life to Christ or be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity.
Jeez, it is like you asked me to prove the sky is blue. If you insist, I will get hold of a Bible and quote you chapter and verse, but maybe someone who had a christian education like I did can vouch for me and spare me that chore.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by The Mutt
What, are you kidding? Just turn on your radio on a Sunday morning. And I said it was A basic tenet, not THE basic tenet.
I don't have a Bible handy, but Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father except through me." That is, only believers in Jesus go to heaven.
All throughout Paul's letters he says that you must give your life to Christ or be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity.
Jeez, it is like you asked me to prove the sky is blue. If you insist, I will get hold of a Bible and quote you chapter and verse, but maybe someone who had a christian education like I did can vouch for me and spare me that chore.

It's not even a basic tenet. I challenge you on the Biblical quoting stuff... Paul actually said that there were multiple situations in his letters to the Romans. Notably, he said that there are those who know the Law in their heart, and he never condemned anyone to tell.

Get a Bible. I'm confidant you're not correct.

And Jesus said he was the way, but he never said "believe like me or get tortured for eternity" or anything quite like that. So, you said you haven't made anything else up... please substantiate that.

 

[minsue]

How can anyone substantiate anything Jesus did or didn't say?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by minsue
How can anyone substantiate anything Jesus did or didn't say?

By including the addendum of what source is being used. Generally the synoptic gospels are the only real source worth mentioning, by convention.

 

[The Mutt]

By including the addendum of what source is being used. Generally the synoptic gospels are the only real source worth mentioning, by convention.

Ok, but I won't be able do do the research until tonight. I do feel it is kind of pointless, tho. You can use the Bible to argue both sides of any issue. Preachers have been doing it for centuries.
And Christianity has evolved far beyond what is in the bible anyway.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by The Mutt
Ok, but I won't be able do do the research until tonight. I do feel it is kind of pointless, tho. You can use the Bible to argue both sides of any issue. Preachers have been doing it for centuries.
And Christianity has evolved far beyond what is in the bible anyway.

All you have to do is find where it is a tenet. You made the proposition, burden of proof is on you.

 

[shereads]

By including the addendum of what source is being used. Generally the synoptic gospels are the only real source worth mentioning, by convention.

Joe, you can't prove that Jesus existed until the Biblical account is supported with something else in the historic record. I think you're weakening your own argument by assuming a factual basis for what is essentially a matter of faith.

Jesus is a wonderful concept when he isn't being used to threaten the faithless. I hate to see the positive aspects of his story diminished by subjecting them to the scrutiny of science and history.

 

[The Mutt]

Here's a quicky before I head out to my audition. This is from a website for children about what Christians believe.

But what about hell? Why would a loving God create a horrible place of eternal suffering?

This is a very difficult question theologians have argued over for centuries. But the Bible teaches hell is a place where non-believers go after death. For those who are offended by the idea of hell, I ask, "What is God supposed to do with people who've spent their entire lives denying and rejecting their Creator?" In the end, God has to separate these people forever from himself. And why would they want to be in heaven anyway? Heaven is about worshiping God and experiencing him to the fullest. Our heaven would be their hell.
The main thing to understand about hell is that it means eternal separation from God. We can end that separation by accepting Jesus' death on the cross as payment for our sins. That's our doorway into heaven.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by shereads
Joe, you can't prove that Jesus existed until the Biblical account is supported with something else in the historic record. I think you're weakening your own argument by assuming a factual basis for what is essentially a matter of faith.

I didn't say he was real, I just said that if we're to talk about what Jesus did and didn't say, convention is to use the synoptic gospels. Atheists, Theists, Philosophers, Theologians... this is the reference we call on when talking about what Jesus did and didn't say.

I didn't say it was perfect, just that its what's used.

 

[shereads]

Min, the Pointless Thread could turn out to be one of AH's Greatest Hits! Is it okay to use it for other unwinnable arguments? Or only the existence of God and the social/historic value of religion?






I love your AV, by the way. Nice ditch. I have vivid memories of the Grand Canyon from age 7: the souvenir shop where I got my Apache Tear necklace; crying because I didn't get to ride the donkeys. Kids are miserable little creatures to travel with, aren't they? I still wonder why our parents didn't lock my sister and me in the house with some food and travel by themselves.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

My one and (hopefully) only post to any Religion vs. Anti-Religion arguments

Joe is right, religion in of itself is not evil.

Religion however has been utilized to get a lot of people to follow the evil of one.

However, so has most other non-tangibles.

Christianity has a bloody past, it also has some good things to say.

Many people who follow the faith however, don't pay attention (sadly) to the tenets and main points and instead follow what the preacher says the Bible says.

I will never be Christian because I can't be a part of a religion that sends Douglas Adams to Hell.

God does not neccesarily have to be a nice guy to be loving. He can be a right old bastard and still love us and he can love us in many ways including merely as a concept that doesn't perform up to snuff. That is how Hell can exist.

Arguments about religion are pointless and cause much hemoraging of the mind.

Pants are evil.

Non-sequiturs are good.

Down with pants.


P.S. Without religion, we'd still kill each other. And probably at the same rate. We are a war-like and terminally stupid race.

 

[doormouse]

All you have to do is find where it is a tenet. You made the proposition, burden of proof is on you.

For fucks sake, Joe.

Can't anyone say anything without you wanting 'proof'???

Don't bother Mutt. I thought your post was good. I'm tired of his endless debates, no matter what the subject.

Go back and get a certificate in 'how to be a people person' Joe.

So sue me, I have an opinion.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Sorry, this thread has moved on from that.

ON the debate of the 'basic tenents of chritianity'- this asumed that there is one Christianity, which there is not. Each denomination has it's own tenents. Catholicism has it's own basic tenents. People usually think that there own encounters with christianity are the norm. When you look at what different denominations believe (and there are fundamental, spiritualist, liberal and even other 'groupings' as well) you will find that they disagree on just about *every* tenent there is.

Trinity?

Jesus is God?

the meaning or necessety of Holy Comunion?

Hell?

Heaven?

Satan?

---------

Every aspect is up for interpretation, and interpreted differently, every tenant varies.

For purposes of discussion, there is no such thing as 'Christianity' it is a tower of babbel.

All Christians do NOT believe the same things.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by sweetnpetite
Sorry, this thread has moved on from that.

ON the debate of the 'basic tenents of chritianity'- this asumed that there is one Christianity, which there is not. Each denomination has it's own tenents. Catholicism has it's own basic tenents. People usually think that there own encounters with christianity are the norm. When you look at what different denominations believe (and there are fundamental, spiritualist, liberal and even other 'groupings' as well) you will find that they disagree on just about *every* tenent there is.

Trinity?

Jesus is God?

the meaning or necessety of Holy Comunion?

Hell?

Heaven?

Satan?

---------

Every aspect is up for interpretation, and interpreted differently, every tenant varies.

For purposes of discussion, there is no such thing as 'Christianity' it is a tower of babbel.

All Christians do NOT believe the same things.

Very true. Very important point. Protestantism exists because people in a Christian church decided they don't share a tenet. This has happened often.

 

[The Mutt]

All you have to do is find where it is a tenet. You made the proposition, burden of proof is on you.

Well, I couldn't find my Bible. It must be packed away with my copies of Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries. So I consulted the two most universally accepted authorities on Christianity; The Pope and Billy Graham, spiritual advisors to kings and presidents.
The Pope doesn't have a FAQ page on his website. I guess he is too busy travelling to nations of starving millions and telling them that birth control is a mortal sin.
So here is a quote from Billy Graham:

"Hell was prepared originally for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). However, God will not force anyone to go to heaven. If a person willfully refuses to repent of sin and turn to God, with faith in Jesus' sacrifice for the sins of the world, God has no alternative. Justice demands that those who disregard and reject God's loving offer of pardon will pay the penalty for their own sins forever in hell."

So there you have it. Christianity teaches that unless you accept Jesus, you burn in Hell forever.
If you would like proof that the world is round, humans breathe oxygen or the Mets suck, ask somebody else. I hate homework.