Internal vs. External conflict

[CharleyH]

In erotica, or porn, most stories express external conflict ... a tension between the physical wants and desires of one or two (maybe more depending on the kink of the story) different characters that play back and forth until someone cums (we hope). But what of internal conflict? I know that an internal erotic conflict might consist of a a priest or nun (as basic example) at odds with masturbation in the face of God, but beyond the erotic, I sometimes encounter difficulties about how internal conflict can be translated into action, especially in longer non-erotic works. Does anyone have similar experiences?

 

[Dual_Triode]

An old episode of Star Trek comes to mind, "The Changeling", when Captain Kirk induces an internal conflict in Nomad's programming. The robotic probe is caught in a logic bomb, struggling to speak, "Sterilize...must sterilize." Ultimately, Nomad self destructs in a typical Trekkie climax.

I think internal conflicts can sometimes manifest themselves in aberrant, anti-social, or self destructive behavior. The external behavior is often at right angles to the source of the conflict. By this I mean it is unrelated, or orthogonal; kind of like billiard ball collisions.

I suppose that in a novel, you could expose the strange behavior and let the reader play psychoanalyst, leading them down the path to the root cause of the conflict.

$0.02 from Dual_Triode

 

[PacoFear]

In erotica, or porn, most stories express external conflict ... a tension between the physical wants and desires of one or two (maybe more depending on the kink of the story) different characters that play back and forth until someone cums (we hope). But what of internal conflict? I know that an internal erotic conflict might consist of a a priest or nun (as basic example) at odds with masturbation in the face of God, but beyond the erotic, I sometimes encounter difficulties about how internal conflict can be translated into action, especially in longer non-erotic works. Does anyone have similar experiences?

IMHO, internally conflicted characters are necessary for some categories of erotica to really work their magic, notably the first time and incest genres.

For me, internal conflict is easiest when the conflicted character is the one narrating. I have the luxury of describing a thought that pops into their head "unbidden" and then describe how they react to it. They 'push it away' or feel guilty about it. I did a fair amount of this in my most recent "Macallan Promises": http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=460628

I think non-narrating characters show internal conflict outwardly as hesitation when confronting their troublesome area. They will struggle over performing some action as the conflict plays out inside. In extreme cases, it shows as frustration and maybe even a quick temper. Think about real life. For normal people, conflict is stressful and since we're usually trying to make our characters feel like normal people, your conflicted character should exhibit one or more symptoms of that stress.

Hope this helps,

-PF

 

[CharleyH]

An old episode of Star Trek comes to mind, "The Changeling", when Captain Kirk induces an internal conflict in Nomad's programming. The robotic probe is caught in a logic bomb, struggling to speak, "Sterilize...must sterilize." Ultimately, Nomad self destructs in a typical Trekkie climax.

I think internal conflicts can sometimes manifest themselves in aberrant, anti-social, or self destructive behavior. The external behavior is often at right angles to the source of the conflict. By this I mean it is unrelated, or orthogonal; kind of like billiard ball collisions.

I suppose that in a novel, you could expose the strange behavior and let the reader play psychoanalyst, leading them down the path to the root cause of the conflict.

$0.02 from Dual_Triode

lol - ST references - I like you!

For some reason I am completely gapping on what internal conflict looks like on a page. I know what it looks like on film, but there is a huge difference, imo, between screen and novel writing. I'm thinking, for example, in a situation where the character does nothing, but there is a lot of internal conflict involved in the decision of doing nothing. There's no visible externalization of that conflict. I keep thinking that an internal conflict story is best written in 3rd person, and then I worry that 3rd person is too impersonal for such an intimate conflict. I keep getting drawn back to thinking that 1st person pov might be best for such a struggle.

Forgetting about what I am personally struggling with, and this question goes out to all, what is the best POV for an internal conflict?

 

[CharleyH]

IMHO, internally conflicted characters are necessary for some categories of erotica to really work their magic, notably the first time and incest genres.

For me, internal conflict is easiest when the conflicted character is the one narrating. I have the luxury of describing a thought that pops into their head "unbidden" and then describe how they react to it. They 'push it away' or feel guilty about it. I did a fair amount of this in my most recent "Macallan Promises": http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=460628

I think non-narrating characters show internal conflict outwardly as hesitation when confronting their troublesome area. They will struggle over performing some action as the conflict plays out inside. In extreme cases, it shows as frustration and maybe even a quick temper. Think about real life. For normal people, conflict is stressful and since we're usually trying to make our characters feel like normal people, your conflicted character should exhibit one or more symptoms of that stress.

Hope this helps,

-PF

Thanks PF. I just posted a question for all about the best POV from which to write an internal conflict and you gave your take just as I was asking! Funny.

 

[PacoFear]

Thanks PF. I just posted a question for all about the best POV from which to write an internal conflict and you gave your take just as I was asking! Funny.

Psychic powers. If only I could do something useful with them.

 

[girly_dew]

As a somewhat inexprienced writer, I've wondered about this also. Internal conflict is where powerful eroticism thrives for me as a reader and I'm trying to master that skill as a writer. One thing I did in the single story I've submitted to Lit so far is to use present tense. Present tense seems so much more immediate, which is where internal conflicts axctually take place, as opposed to external congflicts, that involve the character in abstract thinking about strategies, tactics, etc...things that, for me at least, are seldom erotic.

I have my character questioning herself, her propriety, her morals, her strength of character, etc., and then make a decision about herself, all in the present tense, as if we (the readers) are experiencing the situation along with her...only to have her, in the next moment, completely abandon reason in favor of what her erotric drive is making her do...which we were kinda hoping would happen all along...

Does it work? It does for me, but I need to practice it on future stories...

 

[Penelope Street]

In erotica, or porn, most stories express external conflict...

Really? I think most erotic stories involve some "should I or shouldn't I?" internal conflict. Those that involve any conflict, that is.

An old episode of Star Trek comes to mind...

*gag*

I'm thinking, for example, in a situation where the character does nothing, but there is a lot of internal conflict involved in the decision of doing nothing. There's no visible externalization of that conflict. I keep thinking that an internal conflict story is best written in 3rd person, and then I worry that 3rd person is too impersonal for such an intimate conflict. I keep getting drawn back to thinking that 1st person pov might be best for such a struggle.

Doncha know! First person is best for everything.

Internal conflict is where powerful eroticism thrives for me as a reader.

I agree.

 

[CharleyH]

Really? I think most erotic stories involve some "should I or shouldn't I?" internal conflict. Those that involve any conflict, that is.

*gag*

Doncha know! First person is best for everything.

I agree.

I concede that there is some sort of internal struggle in (almost) all stories, but they typically get sorted through external action. What if there can be no external manifestation of the inner conflict?

 

[PacoFear]

I concede that there is some sort of internal struggle in (almost) all stories, but they typically get sorted through external action. What if there can be no external manifestation of the inner conflict?

Not sure what you mean by "there can be no external manifestation of the inner conflict." If you're narrating from the character as first person, you can write it out. If you're describing them from third person, you have no choice but to describe how it plays out externally either directly or indirectly as frustration, stress, etc. From third person, the internal conflict has to manifest somehow or it simply doesn't exist.

Here's one "out of the box"/longshot thought: A character who's internally conflicted but conceals it PERFECTLY could later have their conflict revealed from third person by finding the character's "secret journal." It's a contorted way to tell a story but it's the only option my little squirrel brain can picture at the mo.

-PF

 

[Penelope Street]

I concede that there is some sort of internal struggle in (almost) all stories, but they typically get sorted through external action.

Action, yes, but action isn't necessarily conflict, which is what makes so many sex scenes skipperoonies.

Not sure what you mean by "there can be no external manifestation of the inner conflict." If you're narrating from the character as first person, you can write it out. If you're describing them from third person, you have no choice but to describe how it plays out externally either directly or indirectly as frustration, stress, etc. From third person, the internal conflict has to manifest somehow or it simply doesn't exist.

I stumbled over what Charley meant there too. While one could describe internal conflict through exposition using third person, I find first person makes for a more natural narrative.

 

[Verdad]

For some reason I am completely gapping on what internal conflict looks like on a page. I know what it looks like on film, but there is a huge difference, imo, between screen and novel writing. I'm thinking, for example, in a situation where the character does nothing, but there is a lot of internal conflict involved in the decision of doing nothing. There's no visible externalization of that conflict.

This intrigued me. Could you please give some examples? I too can't quite grasp what kind of internal conflict you mean.

 

[Zodia195]

I think what Charley means is that a character could be struggling on the inside and not even show it externally. Or in this case, the writer might know the char is suffering, but doesn't really write about it so the reader doesn't know the char is suffering internally. That's what I think at least. I could be wrong.

Anyway, I love conflict in stories, especially internal. I love throwing a monkey wrench into a plotline that messes with my characters' heads, but in the end I am a sucker for happy endings so I enjoy seeing how my chars (at least my heroes) find their good endings.

 

[PacoFear]

Charley,

Let's try an example to tease out your question. Below is an excerpt from one of my current projects. I thought it might be helpful because it has a bit of conflict from both angles: the first person POV narrator and her friend are hesitating about divulging something personal. The friend's conflict comes out as palpable hesitation. The narrator's conflict comes out in internal dialogue.

~*~*Working Title: "Lemon Drops"~*~*

I watched as Heather’s pretty face, with its flawless skin most girls our age can only dream of, took on a wistful, faraway look. She shook her head slightly and the long, thick blonde ponytail that fell down past her shoulders shifted and swayed. She nervously traced the gold captain’s patch stitched to her uniform at her shoulder. She was proud of that patch and had every right to be. Heather was leading us to a state finals for the first time in twenty years.

She sighed and started awkwardly, “This spot on the field… where we’re sitting… it’s special. I picked it just now for a reason. I was drawn to it, really. Pulled by it.”

She hesitated a moment more. What was coming was private. I could feel her struggling with a difficult decision and I waited patiently. She’d been the one who'd pulled me out of study hall with a made-up excuse. And she’d been the one who marched me out here in the thin November sun to talk alone.

Private, secret, personal... oh shit.

I knew what she wanted to talk about. I’d been dropping too many hints that I knew what she and our sweeper Stacey were doing when they were alone. I’d only done it to tease her a little. Too much, I guess. I felt bad about it now.

I tried to tell her what I needed to with a helpful, pleading look: C'mon girlie, get it out. Get it out so I can tell you I'm sorry and we can hug and I can tell you I don't care if you're gay. That it doesn't matter to me. Hell, I might be gay too. I could really use someone to talk to about all of this.

Instead, Heather chewed her lip and sighed again. "Nevermind, look I'm sorry to be so weird. We haven't hung out in awhile. How're you doing?"

I watched sadly as she plastered her perfect, toothpaste commercial smile on her face. She wasn't ready to talk about Stacey. Not yet.

I matched her fake smile and shrugged. "Meh, you know, the usual. Calculus is driving me crazy and I'm about ready to strangle Chase. She's getting on my last nerve." Because I can't stop thinking about her, about her beautiful silky black hair, her silly laugh, or, most of all, her pale blue eyes that glinted like ice in the sun. Jesus, I think I'm falling for her.

I wanted to share it all with Heather. If only she'd opened up. She'd always been the brave one, the leader, long before we'd given her that captain's patch. I was just the sassy sidekick. I really needed her now. And she needed me. I could tell by the way she twisted her hair, a nervous habit she'd had for years.

You know what, fuck it. I'd be brave, just this once. "Heather? What do you think of Chase?"

Heather's fake smile spread into a real one, a wide and knowing one. "I think I know what you think of her."

"That obvious, huh?"

"I've known you since kindergarten, KK. I know what you're thinking before you do."

"That goes both ways you know... Stacey?"

She nodded and smirked. "Yeah."

It was like a damn bursting. Everything came out at once. We took turns babbling about our crushes, about our fears, about how it felt to find yourself thinking, constantly, about another girl. By the end we were sniffling and laughing and teasing each other. Everything felt right again.

Coming out of the closet in high school was like playing hop scotch in a minefield. But then Heather and I were pretty good at hop scotch; we'd playing it together for years.
...
~*~*~

That was my wild stab in the dark. Which incidentally, you'll be getting if we don't figure this out.

Okay, I didn't actually mean that last part - it's just 4am here and I'm remembering a scene from "Black Adder."

-PF

 

[CharleyH]

This intrigued me. Could you please give some examples? I too can't quite grasp what kind of internal conflict you mean.

In regards to the film vs. novel reference, I think it is acceptable to screen audiences for a story to switch between this POV and that POV. Often the media itself demands it. In the novel, you have the authorial voice and switching pov's can add more complexities to the narrative for the reader. I was confused about this when I posted about internal vs. external conflict.

In regards to a story ... a trapped character at the end of his or her life considering if there are such dichotomies as evil and good based on the deeds he/she have done or not, and wondering if he/she might go to heaven, hell or the abyss. Sure, I can do flashback, but it doesn't fit because the character is anti-hero and may as well be a Nazi in the end, and I need to make that character as sympathic as he/she is unsympathetic.

I did come across something interesting today that I'd forgotten ... Jean-Paul Sarte's concept of anti-story. I think the story I am personally writing can be told though a series of disparate letters, diaries, tales, music cassettes and drawings left behind.

 

[driphoney]

Man ... you guys are sooo over my head.

I really am clueless here. In third person, don't you give away the internal conflict in the head-hopping? Maybe I don't know what you mean by internal conflict. (Now, that's really embarrassing!)

I would think first person is easy, and other characters would have to be interpreted by the first, or not revealed until later.

Now ... if I could just figure out how to write complex conflict of any kind!

 

[PacoFear]

I did come across something interesting today that I'd forgotten ... Jean-Paul Sarte's concept of anti-story. I think the story I am personally writing can be told though a series of disparate letters, diaries, tales, music cassettes and drawings left behind.

Methinks I'd tried to nudge you in this directions 44 hours beforehand...

A character who's internally conflicted but conceals it PERFECTLY could later have their conflict revealed from third person by finding the character's "secret journal."

Ick, almost forgot: Nietzsche, Proust, Kierkegaard, and Nabokov. And, pronunciation aside, I'm fairly sure the man's name is spelled "Sartre."

There, now I sound smart too.

 

[CharleyH]

Methinks I'd tried to nudge you in this directions 44 hours beforehand...

Ick, almost forgot: Nietzsche, Proust, Kierkegaard, and Nabokov. And, pronunciation aside, I'm fairly sure the man's name is spelled "Sartre."

There, now I sound smart too.

Yeah, I started getting lazy that night because it was late ... Europe time, ya know, and I had some poetry things to address before bed. Thank you for your post, though, I did appreciate it even if I didn't say so at the time. Also, Sarte is my typo, excuse me for it, as you are correct, Paco, dear, and I write this with a kind

All this aside, you, amongst others on this thread, really got me thinking hard (well, okay, no penis on my body, so not that hard - lol - ) over this weekend. I reviewed my story inside and out, and inside and out again. Over the last few years, I've researched the details (it is an historical drama) to the point that the only thing left to research is how the people flushed their toilets after taking a shit. I know everything there is to know about my character, about the setting, about the time period, about my character's specific conflicts and the obstacles in the way of reaching that final glorious goal. Still, it's only been through discussing it with all of you that I realized what was missing .... 1) structure and even more important than that ... 2) inciting incident.

Once I figured out the inciting incident, the entire structure fell into place as easily as if I were making scrambled eggs. At this point, I can't even understand how I couldn't see it before. I thank you all for this beautiful epiphany.

Going beyond my response to Paco and out to anyone who doesn't know what an inciting incident is: an inciting incident is the one event that drives the story into action. It is a crucial event near the beginning of the story - the event that unbalances the protagonist's life - the crucial event that sets the conflict(s) in motion.

If anyone else wants to pipe in on what an inciting incident is, by all means, please do.

 

[Zodia195]

I'll pipe in. But first I've got to give you cudos for doing historical romance. I rarely go to that genre or stories on Earth in general because I can't create my own rules like I can in the fantasy genre hehe.

Anyway, yeah I do think the inciting incident. For me most of my inciting incidents take place even before the current storyline starts because I tend to create really big pictures. You may think something is happening at times, but something bigger is happening at the same time. So there's that incident, but than there's a 2nd one that causes the main char(s) to act first. So do you think there can be more than one inciting incident? I do.

 

[sunandshadow]

Funny, I would have said the opposite, that romance and erotic stories tend to have a lot of internal conflict but not a lot of external conflict. For example there tends to be a lot of the main character being afraid that the other character will find them unattractive or perverted or weak, or the main character may have a fear of commitment or intimacy. But you don't see a lot of fistfights or gunfights lol.

 

[Zodia195]

Hehe yeah regular romances can be unless you have a catfight over a man or the other way around hahaha.

 

[sunandshadow]

Hehe yeah regular romances can be unless you have a catfight over a man or the other way around hahaha.

And erotica can be just romance with a higher percentage of sex scenes or kinkier sex.

 

[driphoney]

Yeah, I started getting lazy that night because it was late ... Europe time, ya know, and I had some poetry things to address before bed. Thank you for your post, though, I did appreciate it even if I didn't say so at the time. Also, Sarte is my typo, excuse me for it, as you are correct, Paco, dear, and I write this with a kind

All this aside, you, amongst others on this thread, really got me thinking hard (well, okay, no penis on my body, so not that hard - lol - ) over this weekend. I reviewed my story inside and out, and inside and out again. Over the last few years, I've researched the details (it is an historical drama) to the point that the only thing left to research is how the people flushed their toilets after taking a shit. I know everything there is to know about my character, about the setting, about the time period, about my character's specific conflicts and the obstacles in the way of reaching that final glorious goal. Still, it's only been through discussing it with all of you that I realized what was missing .... 1) structure and even more important than that ... 2) inciting incident.

Once I figured out the inciting incident, the entire structure fell into place as easily as if I were making scrambled eggs. At this point, I can't even understand how I couldn't see it before. I thank you all for this beautiful epiphany.

Going beyond my response to Paco and out to anyone who doesn't know what an inciting incident is: an inciting incident is the one event that drives the story into action. It is a crucial event near the beginning of the story - the event that unbalances the protagonist's life - the crucial event that sets the conflict(s) in motion.

If anyone else wants to pipe in on what an inciting incident is, by all means, please do.

"The door through which you can't return." (The protagonist, that is.)

Damn. Why didn't my English prof use real terminology. It's this very concept I've been struggling with myself. How do you create it? Is it what separates the sheep from the goats in writing?

Contemplating my own single little story here on Lit, I can't see where I have one. But then I was completely clueless when I started it. Oh well. Every story a new lesson.

Thanks for the thread.

Charley ... what was your inciting incident? Can you tell us?

Zodia -- sounds like you write really great complicated stories!

 

[Guest]

I am a big fan of schoolgirl stories, and I ran across one with a great internal conflict called "An Unlikely Encounter". Even if schoolgirl stories aren't your thing, this first chapter has some great examples of internal conflict on the teacher's part. The subsequent ones get more into the student, and it's great to read it from two different angles.

 

[CharleyH]

"The door through which you can't return." (The protagonist, that is.)

Damn. Why didn't my English prof use real terminology. It's this very concept I've been struggling with myself. How do you create it? Is it what separates the sheep from the goats in writing?

Contemplating my own single little story here on Lit, I can't see where I have one. But then I was completely clueless when I started it. Oh well. Every story a new lesson.

Thanks for the thread.

Charley ... what was your inciting incident? Can you tell us?

Zodia -- sounds like you write really great complicated stories!

My inciting indecent is a cyanide pill that my character obtains. It incites the major internal conflict and drives every scene until the end.

I urge you to read 'Story' by Robert McKee. It may be more about screenplays, and the read is a bit convoluted, but it's worth it. McKee has a lot to say. On inciting incident he specifically discusses the movie 'Ordinary People' and how the inciting incident is little more that of a mother's (played by Mary Tyler Moore) forced smile, which upsets the balance of forces in the protagonists life.