Is oriental racist? Alternatives?

[ChloeTzang]

Soooooo what would be the proper sociably acceptable word for those of the Asian persuasion these days? My spellchecker hasn't caught up w/the times yet.
Oriental is not in my vocabulary unless it's part of a story. Or oriental cookies - those American ones.

Asian. Unless someone says what ethnicity they are.

Me personally? To be honest in real life I don't worry about it. If it comes up, I tell them and it usually comes up coz my real surname is Polish. But I look Chinese more or less. I'd just use Asian myself, it's bland, it's generic and it's got no connotations. As far as I know. Too many people are overly sensitive these days. My attitude is just get over it. When you're a visible minority you got to expect some mistakes or some comments. Same as if you're white or black in China. It's going to happen. Live with it or stay home. Like I said, no sensitivity concerns here but hey, I write on Literotica- I'm not exactly typical am I,

 

[TheeGoatPig]

You aren't just a random nobody from the internet. Your opinions aren't even new to the thread! This is page 4.

But thanks for challenging my sensibilities. We Asian women have had it too good for too long.

I'll never make the mistake of voicing my opinion in earshot of white people if it means they would have to briefly consider my feelings on the topic of word choice when addressing me.

Am I the only one who got the snark in this post? From the other replies to it I would have to say yes...

You go Lily.

I, on the other hand, need to start that other topic... After dinner

 

[Bramblethorn]

Instead if saying, "Don't use that word!" Think about how they used it. If it is derogatory say, "Don't talk to/about me like that."

The words aren't important. The attitude is.

"People have indicated that these words make them uncomfortable, and I choose to use them nevertheless" is an attitude.

So is "I don't understand why this word bothers people, but since it does bother them, I'll find a different word."

 

[TheeGoatPig]

"People have indicated that these words make them uncomfortable, and I choose to use them nevertheless" is an attitude.

So is "I don't understand why this word bothers people, but since it does bother them, I'll find a different word."

I don't remember saying either of those. Not explicitly at least. This isn't a black or white issue.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Not at all offended by the term...offended by someone using it as an excuse to not engage in the conversation, as an excuse to ignore me.

Nobody needs an excuse to ignore you (or me). We may have a right to free speech but none of us have a right to other people's attention.

When you're talking to an Asian person about racism towards Asians (or to a queer person about homophobia, etc. etc. etc.) it's worth remembering that they've probably had this conversation a lot more often than you have. Unless you're bringing your A game to that conversation, don't be surprised if they're not interested in discussing it with you.

And "Oriental", by definition, can NOT be racist. It refers to a location, not a race.

Bullshit. (Don't take offence! That's just a collection of letters, right?)

Here's Merriam-Webster's definition of "oriental". The second meaning listed is: of, relating to, or coming from Asia and especially eastern Asia * oriental food * oriental art —now sometimes considered offensive especially when used to describe a person

The Oxford Living Dictionaries definition is similar. Like M-W, it notes the word's use as an adjective meaning "Of, from, or characteristic of Asia, especially East Asia" - nothing there stipulating that it only refers to Asian places - and it also notes use as a noun: "(offensive) A person of East Asian descent."

American Heritage Dictionary has: "Of or relating to the countries of the Orient or their peoples or cultures; eastern." It also notes the use as a noun ("often offensive") and goes on to offer a usage note:

Oriental is now considered outdated and often offensive in American English when referring to a person of Asian birth or descent. While this term is rarely intended as an outright slur, and may even be thought polite by some speakers, it is so associated with stereotypical images of Asians as portrayed in the West during an earlier era that its use in ethnic contexts should be routinely avoided. However, Oriental retains a certain currency in referring to Asian arts, foods, and practices, such as traditional medical procedures and remedies, where it is unlikely to give offense.

Searching on expressions like "oriental man", "oriental woman", or "oriental people" will find plenty of examples where it's being used as a racial term, very often by racist dickheads. For example, Rob Ford's claim that "Oriental people are taking over".

Where are you getting this notion that "oriental" doesn't refer to races?

There is no definitive derivation for the word "chink", but one of the most commonly held beliefs as to how it came into being is by referring to a chink as a particularly shaped crack in a wall or other surface.

Merriam-Webster gives the etymology for "ch*nk" (racial term) as "perhaps alteration of Chinese". American Heritage Dictionary has "Probably alteration of CHINESE". Oxford gives "irregular formation from China".

I'm not aware of any worthwhile source that entertains the explanation you suggest.

And, yeah, this is exactly what "mansplaining" and "whitesplaining" are about. You've come into this discussion with very little knowledge, not even the basics that you could have learned by looking up these words in a dictionary, and yet you expect people to "engage in conversation" who've lived with these issues for their whole lives?

That is my general default stance. Use the words people use for themselves. If you call yourself a fag, if that's just the term you own, then that's what I'll call you.

Joe Jackson had a song about this exact thing:

"You don't want to sound dumb, don't want to offend
So don't call me a faggot
Not unless you are a friend..."

If you're friends with somebody and they're cool with you using those words to them, go right ahead. That's the "context" stuff we were talking about earlier. But as a general rule, v. v. bad idea.

Why do you get to lay claim to the term "Asian" while pretending Russia isn't a part of Asia? The world map existed long before you were born, why do you get to rewrite it?

My dude, we have been rewriting the world map pretty much every year since people first came up with the idea of drawing lines on maps. The usage of "Asian" is complex, it varies according to who's using it and where they're using it, and very often the implication doesn't include Russia. For example, when I hear my local racist politicians complaining about being "swamped by Asians", I know it's not Russians they're thinking about.

Sorry, I know I'm coming across as an ass. I'm deliberately doing a bit of pot stirring because people need their delicate sensibilities challenged from time to time...

MelissaBaby already said this, but it bears repeating: Asian people living in English-speaking countries have their sensibilities challenged on a daily basis. Your services are not required.

the emperor needs to be told he's not wearing clothes. But I am just some random nobody from the internet. It's entirely safe to ignore me.

Dude, you are the emperor in this conversation.

One of my best friends in Jr. High was retarded...and I have no qualms using this word for him. Jack would tell you to your face "I don't care if you call me retarded as long as you aren't mean about it."

I'm not arrogant enough to tell him he should be offended by that word.

...just arrogant to tell everybody else who is offended by such words that they shouldn't be.

 

[ChloeTzang]

When you're talking to an Asian person about racism towards Asians (or to a queer person about homophobia, etc. etc. etc.) it's worth remembering that they've probably had this conversation a lot more often than you have. Unless you're bringing your A game to that conversation, don't be surprised if they're not interested in discussing it with you

Some of us are a bit more sensitive than others but that was a great summation Bramblethorn. It's a conversation I've had many many times and I'm sure Lily has to. It doesn't bug me in the slightest to have it again. Anything that helps us all get along is fine by me and if a bit of Asian-splaining is involved it's not a problem. That said I'm half and half and there's lots of Asian things I don't get coz I didn't get that total experience lol

All I can really share is my own experience

 

[Gentleman_G]

I've been wondering if this was a gender thing. No Asian men have chimed in, but I wonder if they would be as ignored.

Having both my parents coming from Indonesia, I'd say I might qualify as being an asian male? I've never been there, don't speak the language fluently either and I'm not at all interested in the culture. Though I enjoy seeing the subtle cultural differences between our family and the regular caucasian inhabitants of my country.

I can't really say I have been the target of racist jokes much, but with my skin not being as dark as many of the Indonesian people, yet my eyes tend to slant a little, I tend to be identified as a whole lot of different ethnicities. I've been called Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Iranian, Turkish, Moroccan - ironically, all by people who were of that actual heritage. I'd end up explaining I wasn't speaking their language, nor that I was actually part of that ethnicity.

I'm not particularly personally offended by racist remarks aimed at asians, but I honestly don't have much experience in that field as a whole. I've heard a few remarks aimed at a Chinese friend in school, but he'd learned to deal with them and ignore them. He acknowledged it wasn't often he got racist remarks though. Once a month was much for him. It might be that we're living in a relatively sheltered part of the country perhaps, where plenty of cultural influences are on display. The more cultures there are, the more acceptance there is on the streets. Looking at my own street, we have a Turkish family, a family consisting of a Moroccan father and Indonesian mother, an Ethiopian family, two guys from the Caribbean. Just around the corner, 5 houses over is a Chinese family as well. And that's just mentioning the first 10 houses in our block.

The ones that clearly get the brunt here are the Moroccan people, and that's mostly because they tend to stick out like a sore thumb, probably culturally.
It also doesn't help that they are pretty clear about doing small-time criminal activities (robbery, stealing) in broad daylight which puts them in a discutable spotlight. It's not like the others don't invest in criminal activities, but the Japanese, the Chinese, the Russians, the Italians and the ex-Yugoslavia countries are doing it all in the shadows rather than in the open, so most people don't even know they're engaging in criminal activities. There are probably more, but if there are, I don't know about them.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

Where are you getting this notion that "oriental" doesn't refer to races?

Here's the first google result for the question: "Where does the term chink come from"

https://www.quora.com/Where-does-the-ethnic-slur-Chink-come-from-and-why-is-there-a-K-at-the-end

"Although some of these suggestions are that it originated from the Chinese courtesy ching-ching, or that the word evolved from the other meaning of chink, which is a small crevice, being a simile for small or slanted eyes (Sometimes, the word is indeed employed as an adjective, as in chink-eyed)., these explanations are referring to obscure points which would require strong proof .. such as the evidence of the first use of the word. That is, the lack of evidence of these constitute a strong (but not perfect) disproof."

From Yahoo Answers:

"https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100717181236AAiVVck"


The definition of the word "chink" is a crack, cleft, or fissure, as in a wall, or it may be a narrow opening, as between buildings. It may also be used to describe the striking together of glasses, as when a toast has been proposed; a short, sharp, ringing sound. This is the common usage of this word among people of manners and civility, outside of a classroom studying race relations or etmology."

There isn't a definitive answer to how the term derived. This is the explanation I grew up with.

I am fully aware that people find it offensive. Which is why I haven't aimed it at any people. But I have no problem discussing a sensitive issue...even when people are getting butthurt about it. Even discussion is now taboo? Or do I just have to get approval from you for the tone of my posts, first?

I'm not aware of any worthwhile source that entertains the explanation you suggest.

*shrug* Not my problem how much you research or what you deem "worthwhile". Just know that this interpretation of the word does indeed exist.

And, yeah, this is exactly what "mansplaining" and "whitesplaining" are about. You've come into this discussion with very little knowledge, not even the basics that you could have learned by looking up these words in a dictionary, and yet you expect people to "engage in conversation" who've lived with these issues for their whole lives?

Hey, I just grew up a weak, effeminate, poor, smart kid at the height of the nerd-bashing 80's in a small Midwestern town full of alpha male sports jocks and farmhands...what could a heterosexual, cis-gendered, lower-middle-class, white guy possibly know about being on the receiving end of people's shitty attitudes and behaviors, eh?

Is it time to whip out the rulers and measure scars to prove I'm worthy to talk?

If you're friends with somebody and they're cool with you using those words to them, go right ahead. That's the "context" stuff we were talking about earlier. But as a general rule, v. v. bad idea.

Oh, so NOW you suddenly want to play the "context" card like it came from you and that my very first post didn't say the EXACT same thing?

When you're sitting in the happy circle sharing the peace pipe, hearing a white guy say "puff, puff, pass, niggah" goes unnoticed. And, yes...I'm fully aware of the spelling/pronunciation convention for that word.

"My dude, we have been rewriting the world map pretty much every year since people first came up with the idea of drawing lines on maps. The usage of "Asian" is complex, it varies according to who's using it and where they're using it, and very often the implication doesn't include Russia. For example, when I hear my local racist politicians complaining about being "swamped by Asians", I know it's not Russians they're thinking about."

So, you're the "real" Asians, and the largest landmass on the Asain continent can go fuck itself. Got it. But we have to watch out for YOUR delicate sensibilities?

...just arrogant to tell everybody else who is offended by such words that they shouldn't be.

There is a difference between "I think getting offended is pointless and dumb" and "you shouldn't be offended".

Be as offended as you like. People are going to react to that and there's nothing you can do about it.

You seem to be utterly tone deaf, continuing to blurt nonsense along the lines of describing people who just ask for a decent consideration of their feelings as "thinking they're too good to have their nose tweaked". But you evaded my question as to why you feel compelled to police other people's "sensitivities." I don't expect you to answer it going forward, and that's okay. I'm sure you've got some short kids to mock or something, so I won't take up any more of your time.

I have consideration for people's feelings, which is why I haven't called anyone in the thread Oriental. People have expressed a preference for terms, and I've said several times that I use the terms for people they use for themselves. Chloe has asked to be called Asian...guess what I'm going to refer to her as?

Out here in meat space, the worst I'm guilty of is saying someone is "Oriental-looking"...and I can't even remember the last time that came up. It is entirely possible to talk about ideas and not be the embodiment of those ideas.

Am I really the only one here who can discuss without taking personal offense at the discussion? No one has directed insults at you, but you're acting insulted.

I feel compelled to tweak people's noses because it's something I like to do. Do I need some Grand Purpose for my actions?

I wouldn't mock short kids...but I probably would mock them getting upset at being mocked for being short. There's a certain camaraderie in commiseration...but obviously not everyone responds to it the same way. In my experience, guys tend to react to it better than women.

As an author, I feel being told you can't use a certain word is like telling a painter they can't use a certain color. You are all writers. Think about that for a minute. You are welcome to do monochromes, but don't expect everyone else to forgo blue just because people have thrown blue paint at you.

 

[Captainnumnuts]

Asian. Unless someone says what ethnicity they are.

Me personally? To be honest in real life I don't worry about it. If it comes up, I tell them and it usually comes up coz my real surname is Polish. But I look Chinese more or less. I'd just use Asian myself, it's bland, it's generic and it's got no connotations. As far as I know. Too many people are overly sensitive these days. My attitude is just get over it. When you're a visible minority you got to expect some mistakes or some comments. Same as if you're white or black in China. It's going to happen. Live with it or stay home. Like I said, no sensitivity concerns here but hey, I write on Literotica- I'm not exactly typical am I,

I'm sensitive to all things racist, bigotry, and anything intentionally demeaning and patronizing. Mainly because I just don't get it. Understanding is one thing. Accepting it is entirely different.

I'm mixed Caucasian. I've been called spic, white boy, nigger, honkey, cracker,etc.. Whatever's out there, I'm sure it's applied to me some way. But I'm a man. I'm also a human being 1st and foremost.

We've only got 1 planet to live on. Why do we keep doing such harmful things to each other?

 

[ChloeTzang]

Am I really the only one here who can discuss without taking personal offense at the discussion? No one has directed insults at you, but you're acting insulted.

I feel compelled to tweak people's noses because it's something I like to do. Do I need some Grand Purpose for my actions?

No you don't, but if you go out of your way to tweak people's noses on topics which can be sensitive, you do tend to either offend people or get ignored. It's one thing to write it into a story, it's another to rub peoples faces in it and it is a topic than cane get people worked up pretty quickly. A certain amount of sensitivity is politeness.

I'm sensitive to all things racist, bigotry, and anything intentionally demeaning and patronizing. Mainly because I just don't get it. Understanding is one thing. Accepting it is entirely different.

I'm mixed Caucasian...

Now me, I'm not so sensitive, I just take it as it comes. If its too offensive I just walk away.

 

[ChloeTzang]

And you guys just have no grasp of the real-life problems we asian girls face every day ....

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/a9/79/0b/a9790b5df4374e87a6afa3b0f1b76aba.jpg

 

[Captainnumnuts]

.
Now me, I'm not so sensitive, I just take it as it comes. If its too offensive I just walk away.

That's the best way to be.

And you guys just have no grasp of the real-life problems we asian girls face every day ....

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/a9/79/0b/a9790b5df4374e87a6afa3b0f1b76aba.jpg

Not to categorize, but you're starting to remind me of some character from the movie "Grand Torino".

 

[Hypoxia]

We've only got 1 planet to live on. Why do we keep doing such harmful things to each other?

Entertainment.

No, I'm not being snarky. Humans play certain Games: political, religious, economic, artistic, athletic. These are how we structure and occupy our time when we're not being productive; we participate even as spectators, and we're willing to inflict violence on those who don't play and talk our way. People do awful shit to each other because they can't think of other fun. It's like watching cockfights or executions: nothing more exciting is playing.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

No you don't, but if you go out of your way to tweak people's noses on topics which can be sensitive, you do tend to either offend people or get ignored. It's one thing to write it into a story, it's another to rub peoples faces in it and it is a topic than cane get people worked up pretty quickly. A certain amount of sensitivity is politeness.

This seems perfectly reasonable...until you stop to realize you're getting worked up over a word.

Tell me, how many decibels must I use to shout the word "oriental" at you before the bruising starts?

How much velocity must I strike my keys with in order to cut your skin when the word "oriental" shows up on your screen?

Has no one ever heard the poem "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"?

What are you going to do when the racists start saying "Asian" meanly? Ban that word, too?

I hear the word "bitch" used as an insult with infinitely greater frequency, but I see no grand crusade to remove that word from our usage.

Your arbitrary line in the sand makes no sense...and is pointless in the face of actual physical abuse which really causes genuine damage.

Are any of you able to even acknowledge these weird double standards?

Now me, I'm not so sensitive, I just take it as it comes. If its too offensive I just walk away.

Hats off to your enlightened attitude! I do apologize for the irritations I've caused...but I find the sharpness of unfiltered (slightly angry) conversations to be more real and interesting than what usually comes through our carefully maintained tea-time filters.

 

[oggbashan]

Me? I'm Occidental. I was born West of the Greenwich meridian. I now live East of it. When I was working in London I used to cross the meridian twice a day.

Oriental? Asian? SE Asian? Any nationality? Put those words after 'porn' or 'erotic' in a search engine and you will get thousands of results. Many of them will be offensive.

For the Indian sub-continent the same applies: Desi Porn; Tamil Porn; Pakistani Porn and so on will produce numerous results.

If any word can be used offensively, someone will.

Try understanding the Australian use of the word 'bastard'. Context and tone can vary the meaning almost infinitely.

 

[oggbashan]

I hear the word "bitch" used as an insult with infinitely greater frequency, but I see no grand crusade to remove that word from our usage.

...

There is a campaign started by Crufts, the dog show, to stop calling female dogs 'bitches' because of the offensive use of that word to describe humans.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

Try understanding the Australian use of the word 'bastard'. Context and tone can vary the meaning almost infinitely.

Exactly! Instead of worrying about the word, pay attention to what comes swinging in afterwards. A beer means you're a friend, ya great bastard! A fist means you're an enemy, ya fuckin' bastard!

 

[ChloeTzang]

Try understanding the Australian use of the word 'bastard'. Context and tone can vary the meaning almost infinitely.

Really?

So I answered my own question. Duck Duck Go is my friend now(not Google). The following are examples of typical non-aggressive uses:

"I've had a bastard of a day"

"Poor bastard"

"Stupid bastard"

"Unlucky bastard"

"How are ya, you old bastard?"

"Wadda you bastards up to?"

"You reckon we'd be learning Indonesian. After all, there are 200 million of the bastards up there".

And of course the classic, "Ya pommy bastard!". Don't get us wrong, though, the aggressive uses are still alive and well:

"He's a bloody bastard, mate. Fair dinkum".

"He's a miserable bastard, that's for sure".

"That bludging bastard wouldn't know how much a carton costs"

"They're a mob a bastards, bloody oath they are. Real mongrels".

 

[TheeGoatPig]

There goes Ogg, making my point better than I could. Sigh...

 

[oggbashan]

There goes Ogg, making my point better than I could. Sigh...

That's coz I've lived among Aussie bastards...

 

[MrKittyLuver]

And fuck cliches like 'words don't hurt'; don't start suggesting that bullying is harmless.

No one is suggesting bullying is harmless. That poem is meant to be a way to combat the least harmful, most easily ignored aspect of bullying. Hurt feelings suck, but do no damage...not compared to an actual physical injury.

For example, Chloe said:

"The mysterious orient" is rather intriguing...

And she's right. The word is evocative. It calls to mind a particular architecture. There's a sense of history and culture. Strange foods eaten with odd utensils. Mystery and adventure around every tight corner of packed street stalls.

Holy shit! That's amazing! Why would you voluntarily rip out that part of yourself and hand it over to the racists?!? Why would you willingly assist in your own abuse?

You shouldn't be cringing from that word, you should be strutting down the street proudly wearing a shirt that says "You're God-damned RIGHT I'm Oriental!"

 

[MrKittyLuver]

Not sure what it means, as I am not familiar with Shades of Fu Manchu, which makes it difficult for me to differentiate those two, but clearly, 'orient' and 'oriental' only differing in two harmless letters, apparently create whole different atmospheres

Which brings us full circle back to "intent and context matters more than the word itself".

That's the problem. Getting caught up in a word, rather than in what's behind it. People want to eradicate the existence of a series of letters. That's weird.

Also, I want to hear more about this "Shade of Fu Manchu" as well. I kinda know vaguely what "Fu Manchu" is beyond just a mustache style, but I'd love to know what makes it a bad thing.

 

[Voboy]

I’m late to this party, but at times I’ve put “oriental” into the mouths of my less-agreeable narrators. I wouldn’t do the same with the n-word, but I guess I view it as “lightly racist,” if that’s even a term. The kind of unconscious racism that stems from ignorance and indifference, rather than hatred.

I grew up in a heavily Korean area of Southern California, so I usually try to hyphenate in my own life, since the differences among Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Filipinos are usually pretty obvious to me.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Psychological bullying does do damage. The internal pain can have actual physical repercussions. I was bullied probably once a week on average all 14 years I went to public school. It hurts thinking that you aren't as good as everyone else. You begin to belive you arent as good as anyone else. Depression can set in, you eat too much or too little, you dont talk to people, making friends becomes near impossible because you dont trust anyone...

All that and I still don't blame the words used. I blame the people.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Psychological bullying does do damage. The internal pain can have actual physical repercussions. I was bullied probably once a week on average all 14 years I went to public school. It hurts thinking that you aren't as good as everyone else. You begin to belive you arent as good as anyone else. Depression can set in, you eat too much or too little, you dont talk to people, making friends becomes near impossible because you dont trust anyone...

All that and I still don't blame the words used. I blame the people.

So your argument is that psychological bullying is bad, but that the means by which it's carried out are acceptable?