Is oriental racist? Alternatives?

[lonigan]

oriental

I've tried to teach my child to judge the intent of the speaker or writer. If no harm or insult is intended, then none should be assumed. But I hope she is canny. There are those who will use a term just because it can be argued inoffensive--and that is an insidious insult and challenge itself, in some cases.

I have asked her if she'd rather be called Asian, Chinese, or oriental, and she says she doesn't care. She's 21, the most gregarious of young adults, and has no memory of her homeland. (She was an infant when we brought her to America.)

 

[TheeGoatPig]

So your argument is that psychological bullying is bad, but that the means by which it's carried out are acceptable?

That is about the most ignorant way that you could have boiled my point down.

You blame the people for using the words? In that case, people might also be blamed for using the word 'oriental'?

I was called retarded. I was called stick boy. I was called snaggletooth and flaky. All of these things were true about me at some point (I still have flaky skin).

I wasn't offended by the fact that I was a slow minded, weak, messed up looking flaky skinned boy. I was upset that I was ostracized and that no one liked me. The words retard, stick, snaggle, and flake don't hold any power over me. They are just words. It's the way they were used that hurts.

And you STILL don't see the difference?

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I've tried to teach my child to judge the intent of the speaker or writer. If no harm or insult is intended, then none should be assumed. But I hope she is canny. There are those who will use a term just because it can be argued inoffensive--and that is an insidious insult and challenge itself, in some cases.

I have asked her if she'd rather be called Asian, Chinese, or oriental, and she says she doesn't care. She's 21, the most gregarious of young adults, and has no memory of her homeland. (She was an infant when we brought her to America.)

See? This is what I am trying to say.

 

[oggbashan]

Which brings us full circle back to "intent and context matters more than the word itself".

That's the problem. Getting caught up in a word, rather than in what's behind it. People want to eradicate the existence of a series of letters. That's weird.

Also, I want to hear more about this "Shade of Fu Manchu" as well. I kinda know vaguely what "Fu Manchu" is beyond just a mustache style, but I'd love to know what makes it a bad thing.

Fu Manchu was a villain in Sax Rohmer's novels:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Manchu

Although Fu Manchu was the mad scientist and villain aiming at world domination, some see him as more principled than cartoon style Bond villains.

Sax Rohmer knew little or nothing about China but he used stereotypes of the 'Yellow Peril' from other authors before him.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...rnate-really-appallingly-racist-a6701766.html

 

[MelissaBaby]

That is about the most ignorant way that you could have boiled my point down.

That's twice on this thread that you have called me ignorant. I assure you that I am anything but ignorant about these issues. Perhaps I have struggled with understanding your incoherent argument, but as words are meaningless and signify nothing, that doesn't much matter, so I'll end my part of the conversation with you here.

If you decide to quote me, please attribute my post to me and not the next random individual who participates on the thread.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Ohhhh, feel free to attribute to me, even randomly. I'm enjoying this thread and I'm not going to get offended. I think. It's a laugh a minute and if you get me going on asian stereotypes, I swear I'm gonna do one..... I collect them! I'm sorry, sometimes I do stuff like this for real just to see the reactions. It can be wonderful....

Asian Girl Problems.....

https://orig00.deviantart.net/c952/f/2008/347/4/e/asian_stereotypes_by_hsojdrallab.jpg

 

[TheeGoatPig]

That's twice on this thread that you have called me ignorant. I assure you that I am anything but ignorant about these issues. Perhaps I have struggled with understanding your incoherent argument, but as words are meaningless and signify nothing, that doesn't much matter, so I'll end my part of the conversation with you here.

If you decide to quote me, please attribute my post to me and not the next random individual who participates on the thread.

I already admitted the misquote was a mistake. I was trying to quote someone that quoted you in the same post and flubbed the edit.

I used ignorance in one post and ignorant in another before this. Wilful ignorance wasn't aimed at your post I quoted. It was just an example of something I find offensive.

But yes, I did call that reduction of my post ignorant. It ignores what I am saying in an attempt to twist my words and make me sound like an asshole that wants everyone to verbally abuse everyone else without repercussions.

I am an asshole but that's not what I am saying. You just aren't listening. You would rather be offended.

Words aren't offensive. Intent is. One word isn't important. Context is.

 

[oggbashan]

Even the Irish and English get labelled:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/e4/4c/b3e44c751cfd99df0287bd89a550ca3a.jpg

http://www.hogwild.net/images/hogwild-comic/0080-hogwild-comic-ethnic-sex-english-girl-blowjob.jpg

 

[Bramblethorn]

Here's the first google result for the question: "Where does the term chink come from"

Not sure why you presented this as a response to "Where are you getting this notion that "oriental" doesn't refer to races?" since it doesn't actually discuss "oriental" - was that a copy-and-paste error?

https://www.quora.com/Where-does-the-ethnic-slur-Chink-come-from-and-why-is-there-a-K-at-the-end

"Although some of these suggestions are that it originated from the Chinese courtesy ching-ching, or that the word evolved from the other meaning of chink, which is a small crevice, being a simile for small or slanted eyes (Sometimes, the word is indeed employed as an adjective, as in chink-eyed)., these explanations are referring to obscure points which would require strong proof .. such as the evidence of the first use of the word. That is, the lack of evidence of these constitute a strong (but not perfect) disproof."

You're quoting from Quora, which is a site where any Internet rando can offer their answers to a question. Sometimes those responses are informed. Sometimes, not so much. In this case, the Quora answer is simply a quote from an out-of-date version of this Wikipedia article. Note that the current version does not include the "small crevice" explanation.

So your source for "one of the most commonly held beliefs as to how it came into being..." boils down to: somebody called "Anonymous" on Quora quoted an old version of a Wikipedia article which no longer says what they quoted it as saying.

In any case, the response you're quoting actually rejects the "small crevice" etymology you're claiming. The very next sentence in that Quora response, which you didn't quote, concurs with the three dictionaries that I cited: "The most obvious etymology is chink evolved from the Indo-Iranian word for China".

The definition of the word "chink" is a crack, cleft, or fissure, as in a wall, or it may be a narrow opening, as between buildings. It may also be used to describe the striking together of glasses, as when a toast has been proposed; a short, sharp, ringing sound. This is the common usage of this word among people of manners and civility, outside of a classroom studying race relations or etmology."

(a) you're quoting a random person on Yahoo Answers in a post that has one upvote and three downvotes
(b) we're all well aware that the "crack or cleft" meaning exists, but this doesn't shed any light on whether the use as an ethnic slur comes from that same place.

There isn't a definitive answer to how the term derived. This is the explanation I grew up with.

There is a very definitive answer. Every major dictionary I've checked agrees that the slur is derived from "China". On matters of etymology, that's about as definitive as it gets. If you grew up with a different explanation, then you were misinformed.

I am fully aware that people find it offensive. Which is why I haven't aimed it at any people. But I have no problem discussing a sensitive issue...even when people are getting butthurt about it. Even discussion is now taboo? Or do I just have to get approval from you for the tone of my posts, first?

We're discussing it right now. Your posts are getting posted. You can post whatever you like, subject to the rules of this site. But other people may also respond to your posts and tell you if they think your ideas are bad. That's how it works.

*shrug* Not my problem how much you research or what you deem "worthwhile". Just know that this interpretation of the word does indeed exist.

I'm not challenging that. You apparently believe it, therefore it does exist. What I'm challenging is your assertion that this version is "one of the most commonly held beliefs".

So, you're the "real" Asians, and the largest landmass on the Asain continent can go fuck itself. Got it. But we have to watch out for YOUR delicate sensibilities?

...what?

I'm not Asian. I've never claimed to be. (Except in the very tenuous sense that I live in Australia, which is sometimes claimed as part of Asia in political/geographical/sporting contexts, but that's not terribly relevant here.)

Contrary to the words you're trying to put in my mouth, I also didn't assert that Russia isn't Asian. I simply stated that some people use "Asian" in a way that excludes Russia.

The example I picked for that usage was "racist politicians", which might have been a clue that I wasn't endorsing that particular usage, but I'm starting to think that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

As an author, I feel being told you can't use a certain word is like telling a painter they can't use a certain color. You are all writers. Think about that for a minute. You are welcome to do monochromes, but don't expect everyone else to forgo blue just because people have thrown blue paint at you.

Okay, let's translate this thread into painting terms:

Bob: "I want to paint something blue. Is cobalt blue good for that?"

Jane: "Cobalt blue is based on heavy metals, so it's quite toxic. If you splash it around that might be harmful to yourself or others."

Bob: "Oh dear, I don't want that. Is there something better I could use instead?"

Jane: "Yes, here is a non-toxic blue paint that looks pretty much identical to cobalt blue."

Bob: "Thanks! I will use that one instead because I don't want to poison anybody."

Steve: "We are ARTISTS! We shouldn't limit ourselves like this! We should embrace all the colours that exist! How can you call yourself an artist if you won't use blue!"

 

[KimGordon67]

I find it weird the consider this racist. The orient is a region. Calling someone oriental should be like calling someone a new-englander, or a Midwesterner. It just helps narrow the field a little bit. Asian is so generic. It includes a lot of people's outside of the southeast coastline.

But whatever. It's all nonsense...

'The orient' is not a region - it's a fiction that was made up by Europeans.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Re. "oriental":

And she's right. The word is evocative. It calls to mind a particular architecture.

*a* particular architecture?

Imagine if somebody from China said "I love that distinctive architecture you non-Chinese people have, the Eiffel Tower and Stonehenge and those step pyramids!" ...

There's a sense of history and culture. Strange foods eaten with odd utensils.

... "And that exotic non-Chinese food! Witchetty grubs, toaster muffins, sushi, habaneros, fried chicken!"...

(seriously, it's 2018, are we really still exoticising chopsticks?)

Mystery and adventure around every tight corner of packed street stalls.

..."Mafia gang wars and knights jousting on horseback and haka ceremonies before sporting matches!"

Would any of that really feel like a compliment? Or can you see how it might be a bit weird and unwelcome to be lumped in with a whole bunch of different cultures whose only common element is what they're not?

You shouldn't be cringing from that word, you should be strutting down the street proudly wearing a shirt that says "You're God-damned RIGHT I'm Oriental!"

"You're God-damned RIGHT I come from USA or Portugal or Chile or South Korea or North Korea or Hungary or Switzerland or Zimbabwe or Lesotho or India or Vanuatu or any of the other countries that isn't China!"

If you were visiting China, would you wear that?

 

[ishtat]

My first contribution to this thread was facetious, the second hardly relevant, this one hopefully more on point.

Oriental or orient is a good name for hotels, restaurants, British steamship companies and wholesale grocers. It is considerably more common in Australia than the UK.

To say a person is oriental seems a bit old fashioned and lazy, impolite, but if it was a description, for example one might say "Chloe has a hint of the exotic, something oriental," it suggests something different, mysterious- but good!

I think that this thread is premised by an over-sensitive, western (occidental?) point of view. Asia and East Asia has plenty of covert and overt racism of its own. I have about 2 dozen Chinese women working for me in Sydney one third from the south two thirds from the north. The banter is continuous:-

"Those northerners, always drunk,"- "Her grandmother was Korean so what can you expect."

or "Southerners, money and manipulation,"- "They would skin a flea to sell it"

All pretty harmless stuff, but mention the Japanese and it gets pretty pointed, they, for good historical reasons totally distrust each other.

Then look at Japan, perhaps the most homogenous society in the world 99% Japanese "one nation , one language one culture," except that it is not. Overt discrimination against Ainu, Okinowans and especially Burakumin is very real, as is the prejudice against their Korean minority.

And if you are a Westerner (male) and want to visit a better class Soapland or Hostess club, don't bother, you will be refused admittance with exquisite courtesy, because you 'don't understand the language or the cultural conventions.' The truth is that the Japanese, particularly the older men don't want to be entertained by a lady who has just serviced a 'stinky westerner' - And don't ask how I know that - the answer is long, hilarious and more than a bit embarassing!

Things are changing but generally East Asian people are much less apologetic about their prejudices and that can be a bit of a shock when first encountered. Attitudes of the younger generation are quite a bit different but they still respect their elders opinions a lot.

I have spent about 2/3 months in various parts of East Asia every year for the past twenty+ years. The differences are what makes it fascinating - but it's best not to make premature judgements.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

Okay, let's translate this thread into painting terms:

Bob: "I want to paint something blue. Is cobalt blue good for that?"

Jane: "Cobalt blue is based on heavy metals, so it's quite toxic. If you splash it around that might be harmful to yourself or others."

Bob: "Oh dear, I don't want that. Is there something better I could use instead?"

Jane: "Yes, here is a non-toxic blue paint that looks pretty much identical to cobalt blue."

Bob: "Thanks! I will use that one instead because I don't want to poison anybody."

Steve: "We are ARTISTS! We shouldn't limit ourselves like this! We should embrace all the colours that exist! How can you call yourself an artist if you won't use blue!"

Let's try more accurate terms:

Bob: "I want to paint something blue. Is this brand of cobalt blue good for that?"

Jane: "Cobalt blue is based on heavy metals, so it's quite toxic. If you splash it around that might be harmful to yourself or others."

Bob: "No one has thrown up. You just don't like the smell. And no other blue has quite the same sheen and intensity as this one. Can't you get over your dislike of the smell?"

Jane: "No, fuck you. Use the blues I like or you're an asshole!"

Bob: "What the fuck, Jane! I just want to paint."

Imagine if somebody from China said "I love that distinctive architecture you non-Chinese people have, the Eiffel Tower and Stonehenge and those step pyramids!" ...

Yes, let's be offended because someone not from your country finds things about your country interesting! That's an awesome attitude! Fuck those foreigners liking your shit! What a bunch of assholes!

It's funny to see you try to twist everything into a caricature of the worst possible examples.

Make the jokes you like, but the fact of the matter is, some black people just like fried chicken and watermelon.

Why do people like you feel the need to demonize that sort of thing as bad just because some assholes want to make it racist? Fried chicken and watermelon are delicious!

I am an asshole but that's not what I am saying. You just aren't listening. You would rather be offended.

For some reason, some people seem to enjoy being bitter and angry. Sad they just can't move past some big, bad, mean ol' words.

I was called retarded. I was called stick boy. I was called snaggletooth and flaky. All of these things were true about me at some point (I still have flaky skin).

I wasn't offended by the fact that I was a slow minded, weak, messed up looking flaky skinned boy. I was upset that I was ostracized and that no one liked me. The words retard, stick, snaggle, and flake don't hold any power over me. They are just words. It's the way they were used that hurts.

In sixth grade I got my face bashed into a urinal for being a "faggoty little queer-bait" daring to piss where another boy wanted to...even though the rest of the bathroom was empty.

It's not the words that sent me to the hospital to get five stitches.

 

[Hypoxia]

Nobody has yet mentioned Worthy Oriental Gentlemen.

 

[colddiesel]

Try understanding the Australian use of the word 'bastard'. Context and tone can vary the meaning almost infinitely.

But you're an old bastard Og and old bastards are always good blokes, even when they're either 20 or 80.

 

[Captainnumnuts]

Ohhhh, feel free to attribute to me, even randomly. I'm enjoying this thread and I'm not going to get offended. I think. It's a laugh a minute and if you get me going on asian stereotypes, I swear I'm gonna do one..... I collect them! I'm sorry, sometimes I do stuff like this for real just to see the reactions. It can be wonderful....

Asian Girl Problems.....

https://orig00.deviantart.net/c952/f/2008/347/4/e/asian_stereotypes_by_hsojdrallab.jpg

:caning::caning::caning:

 

[ChloeTzang]

Nobody has yet mentioned Worthy Oriental Gentlemen.

Not that Wikipedia is particularly reliable, but it says

"The origin of the term is unclear. It was first noted by lexicographer F.C. Bowen in 1929, in his Sea Slang: a dictionary of the old-timers’ expressions and epithets, where he defines wogs as "lower class Babu shipping clerks on the Indian coast."

Many dictionaries say "wog" derives from the golliwog, a blackface minstrel doll character from a children's book, The Adventures of Two Dutch Dolls and a Golliwog by Florence Kate Upton, published in 1895; or from pollywog, a dialect term for tadpole that is used in maritime circles to indicate someone who has not crossed the equator.

Suggestions that the word is an acronym for "wily Oriental gentleman", "working on government service", or similar, are examples of false etymology. Wikipedia doesn't say why though. In Australia it's used to refer to Southern European, Mediterranean, and Middle Easterners so it's a bit broader that "oriental" altho if you're British, well, "The wogs begin at Calais" (implying that everyone who's not British is a wog).

 

[ChloeTzang]

Well, this is the one that always catches me ..... I grew up where there weren't too many asian. I live where there aren't very many asians. I see another asian and I go "oh, look, an asian." Duh!

And being kind of mixed, it's even more conflicting sometimes. I kind of laugh when I catch myself though. It is funny.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/aa/28/e1/aa28e158a45aa9c0e16c495df2e2e3f9.jpg

 

[Captainnumnuts]

Well, this is the one that always catches me ..... I grew up where there weren't too many asian. I live where there aren't very many asians. I see another asian and I go "oh, look, an asian." Duh!

And being kind of mixed, it's even more conflicting sometimes. I kind of laugh when I catch myself though. It is funny.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/aa/28/e1/aa28e158a45aa9c0e16c495df2e2e3f9.jpg

Either way, it's a clever ploy you deployed in this thread. If I had the proper emoji, I would bow or curtsy as a man would.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Either way, it's a clever ploy you deployed in this thread. If I had the proper emoji, I would bow or curtsy as a man would.

That's because we orientals are wily and smart.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/13/70/d4/1370d4d397d6bc519423329d2c123799.jpg

 

[JasonClearwater]

That's because we orientals are wily and smart.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/13/70/d4/1370d4d397d6bc519423329d2c123799.jpg

I don't think anyone can argue with that. LOL.

 

[oggbashan]

Well, this is the one that always catches me ..... I grew up where there weren't too many asian. I live where there aren't very many asians. I see another asian and I go "oh, look, an asian." Duh!

And being kind of mixed, it's even more conflicting sometimes. I kind of laugh when I catch myself though. It is funny.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/aa/28/e1/aa28e158a45aa9c0e16c495df2e2e3f9.jpg

What I find heartening is that my youngest grandchild goes to a school that has a wide range of nationalities and ethnic origins. The largest group after white British is Japanese. She and her friends don't seem to notice or care about nationality or colour of skin. What matters is who they are and how they behave with others. Several of the Japanese children first come to the school knowing no English at all. They seem to learn more English in the playground than in class. But my just six-year-old granddaughter can talk to a Japanese newcomer in basic Japanese.

At first the newly arrived Japanese children are more wary of black classmates than others. It doesn't seem to last beyond the first week.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I don't think anyone can argue with that. LOL.

I snorted my coffee when I saw that one. I love some of these. A lot of them are so funny but like most stereotypes there's some truth in them. That makes it even funnier.

 

[JasonClearwater]

I snorted my coffee when I saw that one. I love some of these. A lot of them are so funny but like most stereotypes there's some truth in them. That makes it even funnier.

Sometimes it's fun to embrace a few stereotypes, just to fuck with people.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

I'm not here to debate what people should or should not feel offended by. But some words, in addition to being racial epithets, became used politically to take away people's rights or categorize them in an effort to segregate or eradicate them. This was done within the past hundred years with words like 'oriental', 'negro' and 'retard' in the United States and elsewhere. In this case, these were words employed by a ruling majority to marginalize minorities, not just an insult to one's snowflake mentality. I've been referred to as white girl and 'Ingin' (part Cherokee). The second one sometimes bothers me because that language was associated with attempted genocide. Perhaps if there was a 'white exclusion act' (there was an Oriental Exclusion Act in 1924), or if I looked at the history of my lawmakers and saw little to no representation, I might feel differently.