"It Hurts Our Standing in the World."

[contrifan32]

At worst, the people held in Gitmo were bit players. They weren't the Bin Ladens of terrorism. They weren't even his gofers. They were small scale people arrested on suspicions that can't be proven.

The harm done to US interests by keeping Gitmo open is greater than anything the prisoners in Gitmo could have achieved as terrorists - even if they were terrorists.

But logic doesn't matter. President Obama promised to close it. That is enough for other US politicians to ensure that he can't.

The argument isn't about Gitmo and its prisoners. It's about US internal politics which are more about foiling the other party than doing the best for America.

Really?

"Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
Mohammed, a Pakistani citizen, is perhaps the most notorious of all Guantanamo detainees. He was "the principal architect" of the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, according to the 9/11 Commission Report."

 

[oggbashan]

Really?

"Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
Mohammed, a Pakistani citizen, is perhaps the most notorious of all Guantanamo detainees. He was "the principal architect" of the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, according to the 9/11 Commission Report."

But it isn't proven. The US authorities might think he is "the principal architect'. If they could prove it, not by confessions extorted by torture, then he should not be in Guantanamo.

 

[contrifan32]

But it isn't proven. The US authorities might think he is "the principal architect'. If they could prove it, not by confessions extorted by torture, then he should not be in Guantanamo.

But he is, for very good reason as are many others.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Mostly that we're a stupid and cowardly bunch.

 

[oggbashan]

But he is, for very good reason as are many others.

If you can't prove it, it is NOT a "very good reason". You are holding people, without charging them with any crime, indefinitely with no prospect of release. That is against US law and against international law.

What is the difference between that and any 3rd world dictator who throws dissenters into jail for no reason at all?

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Many of those held at Gitmo were turned in for bounties by their neighbors, it was a lucrative way to get rid of those you didn't like. Turning over individuals to U.S. troops was a lucrative business venture for bounty hunters, the Pakistani and Afghan governments, and civilian reward seekers who could convince the U.S. that the person they had captured or were making accusations against, was connected to Al-Qaeda, the Taliban or another terrorist group.

A disconcertingly large number of those held at Gitmo were held, subjected to torture, and never charged for years before being released. Yet you seem surprised that some of them would hold a grudge and become radicalized by the treatment they received.

If you kick the best behaved dog in the world every time you walk by them eventually they are going to bite you. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

 

[oggbashan]

...

The balance between constitutional rights and preventing another terrorist attack is tough..I get it. I'd rather have Gitmo....than not.

It is very easy for me and anyone else to criticise Gitmo - NOW.

It was a bad decision to use Gitmo and a poor solution to the problem of what to do about people who want to harm the US.

It doesn't matter now what else could have been done. There were other options including handing these people over to other governments where the rule of law isn't paramount.

The problem is what to do with the people who are currently in Gitmo. What should always have happened once they were held by US authorities is that they should have been tried in a US court and proven guilty or let free.

Whatever is done now, the prisoners in Gitmo have been held illegally for years. Whether they are guilty of crimes is irrelevant because it hasn't been proven. If they had been held in mainland USA they would have been freed years ago because of Habeus Corpus (which effectively tells the prosecutors 'put your case, start the trial, or shut up and let the suspect free').

But what to do about Gitmo is tangled in US politics. I doubt that a solution will be found before there is a new President.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Omar Khadr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

Omar Ahmed Algredr Khadr (born September 19, 1986) is a Canadian who was convicted of murder after he allegedly threw a grenade during an armed conflict in Afghanistan that resulted in the death of an American soldier. At the time, he was 15 years old and had been brought to Afghanistan by his father, who was affiliated with an extreme religious group. During the conflict Khadr was badly wounded, and captured by the Americans. He was subsequently held at Guantanamo Bay for 10 years. After extensive torture, he pleaded guilty to murder in October 2010 to several purported war crimes prior to being tried by a United States military commission.

Khadr was the first person since World War II to be prosecuted in a military commission for war crimes committed while still a minor. His conviction and sentence were widely denounced by civil rights groups and various newspaper editorials. His prosecution and imprisonment was condemned by the United Nations, which has taken up the issue of child soldiers.

From approximately February 2002, a team of American soldiers were using the abandoned Soviet airbase in Khost, Afghanistan, as an intelligence-gathering outpost, where they tried to blend in and gain the trust of the local community.[20] In the early morning of July 27, 2002, a team composed of 19th Special Forces Group, the 505th Infantry Regiment and a "militia", composed of approximately twenty[23] Afghan fighters loyal to the warlord Pacha Khan Zadran and led by his brother Kamal, had been sent from the airbase on a reconnaissance mission.[20][23][24][25][26] The US forces search turned up no evidence against the occupants of a house they checked out.[27][28]

While the US soldiers were at the house, a report came in that a monitored satellite phone had just been used 300–600 metres from the group's location.[23][26][27] Seven soldiers were sent to investigate the site of the phone call.

At 9:10 UTC, they sent a request for MedEvac to the 57th Medical Detachment. Ten minutes later, a pair of UH-60s were deployed, with AH-64 Apaches as escort. Arriving at the scene, the Apaches strafed the compound with cannon and rocket fire, while the medical helicopters remained 12 miles (19 km) from the ongoing firefight. The helicopters landed at 10:28 UTC to load the wounded aboard. A pair of A-10 Warthogs performed gun runs and dropped 500lb bombs on the compound.

Unaware that Khadr and a militant had survived the bombing, the ground forces sent a team consisting of OC-1,[27] Silver, Speer and three Delta Force soldiers[38] through a hole in the south side of the wall.[39]

The team began picking their way over dead animals and the bodies of three fighters. According to Silver's 2007 telling of the event, he heard a sound "like a gunshot", and saw the three Delta Force soldiers duck; a grenade went by them and exploded near Speer at the rear of the group, "wearing Afghan garb and helmetless." OC-1 reported that although he didn't hear any gunfire, the dust from the north side of the complex led him to believe the team was under fire from a shooter between the house and barn. He reported that a grenade was "lobbed" over the wall that led to the alley and landed 30–50 metres from the alley opening. Running towards the alley to escape the grenade, OC-1 fired a dozen M4 Carbine rounds into the alley as he ran past, although he couldn't see anything due to dust clouds. Crouching at the southeast entrance to the alleyway, OC-1 could see a man with a holstered pistol and two chest wounds moving on the ground next to an AK-47. From his position, OC-1 fired a single shot into the man's head, killing him.[27] When the dust cleared, OC-1 saw Khadr crouched on his knees facing away from the action and wounded by shrapnel (it had just permanently blinded his left eye); he shot the youth twice in the back.

Khadr was given on-site medical attention, during which time he repeatedly asked the medics to kill him, surprising them with his English. An officer present later recorded in his diary that he was about to tell a private to kill the badly wounded Khadr, when Delta Force soldiers ordered them not to harm the prisoner. He was loaded aboard a CH-47 helicopter and flown to Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan, losing consciousness aboard the flight.

Former Canadian Senator Romeo Dallaire has been an outspoken advocate for Omar Khadr's rights as a former child soldier. In July 2012, Dallaire set up a petition putting pressure on then Public Safety Minister Vic Toews to honour the plea bargain deal Khadr made in 2010 when he was released to Canadian custody. 35,000 concerned citizens signed the petition. Omar was repatriated in September 2012.

Dallaire: "Omar has been 10 years in jail already, in a jail so many have considered illegal and inappropriate. He's been tortured to get testimony out of him and through all that has seen no support whatsoever."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roméo_Dallaire

Lieutenant-General Roméo Antonius Dallaire, OC CMM GOQ MSC CD is a Canadian humanitarian, author, public speake and retired senator and general. Dallaire served as Force Commander of UNAMIR, the ill-fated United Nations peacekeeping force for Rwanda between 1993 and 1994, and attempted to stop the genocide that was being waged by Hutu extremists against Tutsis and Hutu moderates.

On November 30th, 2015, State Department emails from Hillary Clinton's private email account were released which revealed how Clinton and her staff worked with Canadian Foreign Minister, John Baird to effect Khadr's return to Canada. Clinton's office was delighted over the news that Omar Khadr was being repatriated to a prison in his home country. Harold Koh, the State Department lawyer, emailed of Khadr's transfer: "Gtmo is 1 down!! Yayy!" To a colleague who congratulated the team on its work, Koh replied: "Hooray! Thanks for the call to FM Baird!" Clinton emailed Koh,"Thank you for all you did to get this resolved." "So glad we got this done," said Koh. "After spending the last 10 years on GTMO, at least this young man finally has another chance."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_response_to_Omar_Khadr

Support for Omar Khadr hovers around 60%.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The first part of your post is good...and that is painful to write. I re-researched it as well, and some of what you write is correct. And yes, that was surprising.

This last part though...you're way off the rails.

I get it. You're afraid. I'm not. On this particular subject that is the bottom line. Even if these guys are bad how bad can they possibly be? This is real life not a movie. They aren't gonna return to Afghanistan and build an Ironman Suit in a cave with a box full of scraps. They in all likelihood going to do nothing but looking at history they'd be lucky to outscore the next school shooter. And what's the attitude towards them? Oh right. Better people die because we believe in rights than people live because we change the rules.

Fear isn't the issue. It never has been. "These guys" as you call them would pull off another 9/11 every day of the week, if they could. The question is...what do you do about it. Something like 30% of the released gitmo detainees go back to Al Qaeda or ISIS, and it's not because they offer a good pension.

How bad could they possibly be? That's not a serious question. Watch any of the intelligence services testifying before congress. Both ISIS and Al Qaeda are threats to to this country. Lone-wolf San Bernadino-style attacks aren't just possible...they've become reality.

The balance between constitutional rights and preventing another terrorist attack is tough..I get it. I'd rather have Gitmo....than not.

I always do my research. Start approaching me with the concept that I generally know what I'm talking about at least in general terms and I'm more than happy to do research and perhaps we'll get along.

Yes they would would pull off another 9/11 if they could. But they cannot. That was ultimately a lucky shot against a country that (mostly correctly) thought it was utterly invincible. It's been 15 long years and in sheer body count the next largest attack was San Bernadino (Though we can quibble over how much dumb luck it was that the Boston Bombing didn't claim more lives if you wish.) 15 vs 3000. They lack the tools to do more than that.

Honestly I have my doubts that they honestly WANT to do that much damage to us or perhaps the politics of it actually does chaff at what morals they do have. I mean I'm not wishing an attack on the US but given the number of school shootings by crazy people, a few mall shootings, do you honestly believe they couldn't get someone with a backpack like the (not even gonna try to spell their names) Boston Bombers wore into a mall on Black Friday? Cus I think that if they had 100 people who don't even have to die for the cause, jsut lay down a backpack and run then set off a trigger they could hit two malls per state with ease. Why haven't they? Why no snipers just popping off? Hell why in sheer numbers are police magnitudes more dangerous to Americans than any terrorist (and they aren't all one group) but all of them combined can't even keep pace with our protectors for fuck sake. Either they aren't trying, are incompetent or simply don't have the balls but at some point it stops mattering which.

It's their job to justify their budgets. And yes bad people exist but how bad and how talented?