It May Have Been Wrong To Laugh... but...

[BlackShanglan]

I will write in defense of Prime Minister Blair. Admittedly, when he first took office and spent his time bounding after Clinton with a vacuous grin on his face, I though him the most repulsive little poodle. But I find considerable merit in the man's recent work. He's treading an extremely fine line on Iraq, and doing it with grace and a certain dignity.

It's very easy - especially politically - to take the French route and thumb your nose joyously at the US while indulging in the sort of inflammatory rhetoric that always plays well in the lower two-thirds of the bell curve. That tends to draw from the attacked party a similar reaction - for example, such ludicrous inanities as "freedom fries" - and a pig-headed determination not to budge an inch. As a result, this sort of policy cannot be said to represent any honest attempt to change the situation or policies under discussion. Who has ever been won to changing a course of action through polemic invective?

Mr. Blair's course has been both more effective and more fraught with danger, personal, political, and military. He's tried to stay close to the US and use his position as a friend and supporter to effect change. That he has been successful - I doubt France's finest invective and villification could have won the delays and concessions that Prime Minister Blair's earnest and gentle persuasion did - is largely ignored. No, he was not able to re-write the US's entire foreign policy. But for one man from one country whose symbolic and historical connection to the US perhaps outweighs its currently rather modest economic role, he did a great deal of good.

It is not clear to me what role countries like Poland, Spain, and Australia played in these negotiations. One would hope it was supportive of Mr. Blair's intelligent and careful work. But just imagine what could have been done if anyone else in the entire "diplomatic" community had had the sense to pursue the same tactics. While I do not, on the whole, subcribe to the old saw that "any war is a failure in diplomacy," I would argue that if one does take the statement as true, there remains the question of just who failed at what. If the US failed to negotiate appropriately with Hussein, I would argue that there were failures at least as monumental - more so because they involved so very many countries - in the assembled UN countries' negotiations with the US.

Prime Minister Blair labored at a difficult and ultimately nearly impossible task, making himself unpopular with his own electorate despite coming much closer to effecting their goals of restraint than anyone who took the liberty of engaging in wild invective in order to cozy up to the popular vote. He showed a great deal of character in pursuing a course that he felt was ethically correct and that he knew would be politically painful. Whatever one thinks of the man's politics or policy, I think he is owed some respect for doing that which is difficult, divisive, but from his point of view morally and ethically right - a thing one rarely finds in a politician of any party, ideology, or nationality.

Shanglan

 

[cjh]

I certainly can't speak for the whole of George Carlin's work. (For example, I think that Ringo Starr made a much better conductor on "Shining Time Station.")

But I think that it is fair to say that his most significant pieces of humor are "on point" in a way that only a few comedians ever achieve. "Seven Dirty Words" (http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/SevenDirtyWords.shtml) caused a whole generation to look once again at the First Amendment, indecency and hypocrisy. Hell, it caused the United States Supreme Court to reexamine the First Amendment, and the FCC's right regulate the broadcast of "indecent" material: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=438&invol=726 .

And look again at some of his one liners:

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

The status quo sucks. _

You have to be realistic about terrorism. Certain groups of people, certain groups, Muslim fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and just plain guys from Montana, are going to continue to make life in this country very interesting for a long, long time.

I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.

Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us, do they?

The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.


Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!


Certainly not all of his humor is on point. A lot of it plays on absurdity, or simply on language. But when he uses humor as social commentary, it seems to me that he is on point.

Sorry to spread the slur about drinking. Then again, Hoddy Toddy.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I blow hot and cold on the use of humor as political commentary. I enjoy it; I'm a devoted fan of the Onion for that reason amongst many others. However, it seems to me that humor is a lot like dear old Marx on his good days: great at pointing out problems, but weak on any sort of solution. That's when humor is good. When it's bad, it descends into outright mockery and simplistic exaggeration, which generally get a laugh but do nothing to encourage intelligent debate.

I think what disturbs me is the ease with which clever gadfly humor descends into ignorant derision. While humor can be good in that it can lighten criticism and open minds, it can also send the message that it's a good thing simply to sneer at those with whom one does not agree. That is always a mistake, in my opinion, at least while said opponents are still breathing. Even Hitler's appeal to the Germans could only effectively have been fought by first making a concerted effort to understand it.

I think humor best when its message can be distilled, not to "look what those idiots over there are doing," but the wry but generall sympathetic "look at this silliness to which we as humans are susceptible." The latter encourages change, the former only smugness.

Shanglan

 

[cjh]

The latter encourages change, the former only smugness.

Good point.

 

[Guest]

Nobody was drunk (what's up with that... I'm noticing a lot of people are saying that).

I imagine his comments could be seen as more forgiveable if he was drunk. In order to give him the benefit of the doubt, many Lit folks are making that assumption.

To announce such proclamations while stone-cold sober causes some people to believe he's just an ass.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Nobody was drunk (what's up with that... I'm noticing a lot of people are saying that).

Its easier to blow it off as the rantings and ravings of a drunk twat.

Were you actually sober when you insulted hundreds of thousands of people whom you knew would not find that funny, and then

It was a charactature of national pride.

attempt to sway the anger towards a nation instead of one drunken twats remarks retold by a drunker twat.

 

[nushu2]

I can see how your friend can say that as a satire and I can understand how the humour gets lost when written. If it truly was satire, he probably is brilliant and insightful. It's just that we're so conditioned to American arrogance.

Let me tell you a story. I went to high school in Florida and there was one night, out on the beach, when my best friend and I met a couple girls from Sweden. One of the girls mentioned that Sweden had the highest standard of living in the world, which was probably accurate at the time. My American friend could not accept that any country could be better than, or as good as, the United States at anything. He just about starting singing America The Beautiful. Damn idiot blew any chance of getting laid by a Swedish girl.

I won't get into the inaccuracies of your friend's words. All I'm trying to say is that everybody outside the United States has heard things like what your friend said before when it wasn't satire. We don't think all Americans are like that, just too many. Canadians have a lot more to be humble about.

BTW, Are they teaching world history down there, yet?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Sweets, Lisa... I never thought I'd say this, but you're being more unreasonable about this than Luc.

Having only occured in the few months or so I've been a part of the AH... I can think of dozens--literally dozens--of times when others on here have insulted hundreds of thousands of people whom, in full knowledge, would not have found that funny (thus, the generality of "doing that is horrible" becomes less contrasted).

But that it was done in humor of other groups of people doesn't appear to be much of an issue--confronted with things like "Oh, it was just a joke" or "have a sense of humor about it" when someone may ruffle. I mean, jokes about gay men, Republicans, Americans, Democratcs, Christians, etc. We see these on a weekly basis. I happen to be a Christian, Democrat, and American... and I don't get my panties in a wad over someone making fun of our SUV's and Big Macs.

...where's the "the jokester is a moron/twat/asshole" in all of that?

Who would find it funny? Um... thus far, some British people actually /have/ found it funny. What sort of confoundment is that, then, in the world of "its not humorous"? Its a joke. Its an off-color joke. Not everyone might like it, but there's a lot of finger pointing that should be happening if the subject matter is the problem. Geez, do we have to throw qualifiers like "he was drunk" or "he's a jackass" to make ourselves justified in not appreciating it?

Greg Proops' standup act about the English was so not different. Robin Williams on the French? Which nationalities are out of bounds, which are not? If we laugh at English comedians or just people trying to be funny about how England bailed out the French... or how the Scottish bayonet charged Iraqies... are we being offensive to the nations on whom the joke is?

Is it then, entirely wrong?

Is everyone whose ever said things like that a jackass and a moron and someone we should consider sooner drunk to make it more right than believe "that's kinda funny" or "I can see how he was trying".

We're not unintelligent people here. I'm sure it doesn't take "He sucks and is horrible" to justify just not finding something funny.

 

[Guest]

Sweets, Lisa... I never thought I'd say this, but you're being more unreasonable about this than Luc. . .

Is it then, entirely wrong?

Is everyone whose ever said things like that a jackass and a moron and someone we should consider sooner drunk to make it more right than believe "that's kinda funny" or "I can see how he was trying". . .

Of course not.

You asked why everyone posting thought drinking was involved; I answered.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by sweetsubsarahh
Of course not.

You asked why everyone posting thought drinking was involved; I answered.

My response was geared more towards

To announce such proclamations while stone-cold sober causes some people to believe he's just an ass.

Its my contention that even in the case of stone-cold sober, it was a joke that no more warrants "he's just an ass" is a bit of a wonky belief.

 

[English Lady]

I'm behind you all the way Here Joe.

You've just stepped on some toes, rubbed some raw nerves et voilla -this thread.


As with all jokes -some people just don't get it. Unfortunately in an instance like this when a joke is misunderstood it causes a whole load of angry backlash. Whereas if someone someone doesn't get

"A bloke walked into a bar. OUCH!"


then well there's not much to get upset about.

You've just picked upon the nation that is mostly highly represented here and well lots of folks haven't got it....and so lots of come back.

Just the way it goes love. Although telling a scouse joke on a scouse board probably wouldn't have such a reaction...but then we're not politically in the midst of crap right now are we? (Ok so i'm only scouse by association but well thats not the point)

And we have a self depreiciating humour. Everyone thinks different things are funny.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Throwing it all away

I know I've been building up a nice tradition of being an unreasonable asshole, but I feel an intercession is in order.

Here's the why:

1) First of all, the humour is not in the usual style of British comedy. More of their works either feature dry humour or over-the-top silliness (feel free to disagree, Brits if I'm way off base). Thus ironic humour (a humour best down vocally than written (you need to be very good to make it work on paper)) especially ironic humour that in print sounds the same as genuine insults, sounds like a disparagemnet rather than comedy. Thus backlash.

2) Ironic humour best works in exaggeration. A sort of winking to let everyone know it's in jest. George Carlin gets away with what he does because he's over the top. He's so ludicrous that it's hilarious and his delivery helps drive home the joke. Again, as you stated, in person it was all in there, the taboo, the spontaneity, and whatall. That such elements failed to translate in print for most is an error of the medium, not of yours or your friend. Nor of the angry types.

3) Every joke sometimes has its death in reality. Imagine a ridiculous joke about killing Jews to stop a housing shortage. It's not really funny. Why? Because reality trumped the absurd premise in WWII. Thus something funny can lose its humour if it hits too close to people's realities.

4) Unfunny gets punished. A joke that fails to entertain is not treated well and if a person doesn't laugh, they are less willing to forgive racial slights, etc. used to make the joke work. Believe me, if George Carlin performed in a stiff monastery, he would not leave with all his fingers.


Now to everyone else:

Lay off the kid, he's just relating a tale. Sure it didn't translate well, but that's no reason to smack him about his friend for it. Especially since his friend was making fun of the people you're accusing him of being. It was an ironic mockery of drunk American arguments. That xenophobic patriotism that has gripped our nation. He's agreeing with you. So lay off Joe.




Now hopefully we can be civilized over a spot of tea and <trample> DAMN BOSTONIANS!

 

[English Lady]

Re: Throwing it all away

I know I've been building up a nice tradition of being an unreasonable asshole, but I feel an intercession is in order.

Here's the why:

1) First of all, the humour is not in the usual style of British comedy. More of their works either feature dry humour or over-the-top silliness (feel free to disagree, Brits if I'm way off base). Thus ironic humour (a humour best down vocally than written (you need to be very good to make it work on paper)) especially ironic humour that in print sounds the same as genuine insults, sounds like a disparagemnet rather than comedy. Thus backlash.

2) Ironic humour best works in exaggeration. A sort of winking to let everyone know it's in jest. George Carlin gets away with what he does because he's over the top. He's so ludicrous that it's hilarious and his delivery helps drive home the joke. Again, as you stated, in person it was all in there, the taboo, the spontaneity, and whatall. That such elements failed to translate in print for most is an error of the medium, not of yours or your friend. Nor of the angry types.

3) Every joke sometimes has its death in reality. Imagine a ridiculous joke about killing Jews to stop a housing shortage. It's not really funny. Why? Because reality trumped the absurd premise in WWII. Thus something funny can lose its humour if it hits too close to people's realities.

4) Unfunny gets punished. A joke that fails to entertain is not treated well and if a person doesn't laugh, they are less willing to forgive racial slights, etc. used to make the joke work. Believe me, if George Carlin performed in a stiff monastery, he would not leave with all his fingers.


Now to everyone else:

Lay off the kid, he's just relating a tale. Sure it didn't translate well, but that's no reason to smack him about his friend for it. Especially since his friend was making fun of the people you're accusing him of being. It was an ironic mockery of drunk American arguments. That xenophobic patriotism that has gripped our nation. He's agreeing with you. So lay off Joe.




Now hopefully we can be civilized over a spot of tea and <trample> DAMN BOSTONIANS!

Aye..what he said *nods jead* LC you're far more eloquent than I.

Pass me a biscuit please......

 

[Lisa Denton]

Sweets, Lisa... I never thought I'd say this, but you're being more unreasonable about this than Luc.

Sweets? Are you pushin me again? He, he.

Its o.k. Joe I was not calling you a drunk twat, which you seemed to realize, only saying that you came across sounding like a drunk twat.

We have almost conversed enough to understand each other. I was just annoyed that you put the reference to "national pride" in there, not mad.

I am unreasonable? You have known this for some time, my basic logic and yours seem to mesh cohesively together into a volatile explosive mix.

Anywho, it just seemed to me as "not funny." Kinda like I joke with a Canadian friend but I wouldn't try to see if all Canadians found my jokes funny.

I like all people, sometimes even you, but I thought you were going a little too far so I said my thoughts. See ya later.

 

[TheEarl]

Sweets, Lisa... I never thought I'd say this, but you're being more unreasonable about this than Luc.

Having only occured in the few months or so I've been a part of the AH... I can think of dozens--literally dozens--of times when others on here have insulted hundreds of thousands of people whom, in full knowledge, would not have found that funny (thus, the generality of "doing that is horrible" becomes less contrasted).

But that it was done in humor of other groups of people doesn't appear to be much of an issue--confronted with things like "Oh, it was just a joke" or "have a sense of humor about it" when someone may ruffle. I mean, jokes about gay men, Republicans, Americans, Democratcs, Christians, etc. We see these on a weekly basis. I happen to be a Christian, Democrat, and American... and I don't get my panties in a wad over someone making fun of our SUV's and Big Macs.

...where's the "the jokester is a moron/twat/asshole" in all of that?

Who would find it funny? Um... thus far, some British people actually /have/ found it funny. What sort of confoundment is that, then, in the world of "its not humorous"? Its a joke. Its an off-color joke. Not everyone might like it, but there's a lot of finger pointing that should be happening if the subject matter is the problem. Geez, do we have to throw qualifiers like "he was drunk" or "he's a jackass" to make ourselves justified in not appreciating it?

Greg Proops' standup act about the English was so not different. Robin Williams on the French? Which nationalities are out of bounds, which are not? If we laugh at English comedians or just people trying to be funny about how England bailed out the French... or how the Scottish bayonet charged Iraqies... are we being offensive to the nations on whom the joke is?

Is it then, entirely wrong?

Is everyone whose ever said things like that a jackass and a moron and someone we should consider sooner drunk to make it more right than believe "that's kinda funny" or "I can see how he was trying".

We're not unintelligent people here. I'm sure it doesn't take "He sucks and is horrible" to justify just not finding something funny.

Joe: My response kinda depends on how the joke was told. If it was told as a satire on NED Americans talking about foreign places, then it's funny, because it is accurate in some cases.


If it is (as I first took it to be) a satire on the British nation, then I don't find it funny. Rip the piss out of Teflon Tony all you like, talk up hte crap weather and laugh at the Millenium Dome. Jokes like that would only be funny if they were factually accurate.

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

It was a joke.

I'll try to make things like that clearer in the future. It, honestly, hadn't even occured to me that it'd have actually been taken as otherwise.

 

[Guest]

It was a joke.

I'll try to make things like that clearer in the future. It, honestly, hadn't even occured to me that it'd have actually been taken as otherwise.

Maybe the confusion was in your choice of title for the thread. It implied that you yourself didn't believe it to be a joke and actually felt guilty about laughing at it.

Oh, I dunno, I'm just a dense British slut, wtf do I know about humour?

There was an Englishman, Irishman and Scottishman...

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Tatelou
Maybe the confusion was in your choice of title for the thread. It implied that you yourself didn't believe it to be a joke and actually felt guilty about laughing at it.

Oh, I dunno, I'm just a dense British slut, wtf do I know about humour?

There was an Englishman, Irishman and Scottishman...

The title, too, was sort of my joke.

I really blow at comedy.

 

[Guest]

The title, too, was sort of my joke.

I really blow at comedy.

Ah, I see!

No you don't, as others have pointed out, it is almost impossible to deliver that kind of comedy with the written word alone. Perhaps you should've recorded it as an audio.

 

[English Lady]

You see i got the title too *chuckles*


but i think it's my kinda humour so i get it.

 

[GingerV]

There are some jokes that are only funny if you know the person who's saying them? Half the humour from that wonderful thanksgiving was that it was your little white haired old grandmother who shouted out "Jesus H Christ on a Pogostick" when the cat ran cross the table and stepped in her potatoes. If it were anyone else, it wouldn't have been as funny. Contrariwise, it was your uncle Fred who swears like a deckhand about all subjects under the sun...not nearly as funny (unless you're just into cats and physical humour).

Joe, you do point out at the beginning that your friend was smart. I don't think you were brown-nosing, or trying to impress us with how smart your friends are. I think some part of you realized that part of the humour was that all this ignorant, over simplified nonsense was coming from someone who just WASN'T the sort of guy to say it. Honestly, and meaning no offense, based on the humourous part...I would never have guessed you friend was the least bit intelligent. I would've assumed he wasn't, but that reveals my bias a bit.

That sort of "you have to know the guy" or "you had to be there" humour just aint gonna translate, in text or in person, unless you DO know the guy or were there. It's not that you're bad with humor, necessarily. It was just a lost cause. That said, humor is an art form...if you're not born gifted, you never will be...but you can become a talented amateur by looking at how the masters do it. Don't give up just yet .

G

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

So, there's an exchange student that used to go here... George. That wasn't his real name, but we couldn't properly pronounce his real name so we called him George. George was cool. Liked to read, never said much when we'd be hanging out at lunch.

So, we're just sitting around and another friend of mine, Jay, starts telling off-color jokes. We all sort of join in. Racists jokes, sexist jokes, political jokes, religious jokes, etc. So at some point, someone makes a Jew joke. Jay, not even thinking about it and still laughing, turns to George and says "George, are there Jews in Germany?"

The table. Goes. Silent.

George looks up from his book, and Jay's face turns white. He starts in as though to apologize, has this horrified look on his face. And George says, "Well... not as many as there used to be."

And goes back to his book, stifling a chuckle.

We crack up hard.

Jay starts laughing, we're all saying things like "He got you, man... he got you, good".

Then George says, getting serious, "But I don't like to joke about that at all. Its not really that funny. My grandfather died in the camps."

Everyone sobers up, nodding. Jay kinda bows his head a bit and says "Yeah, I understand... it's cool, I didn't mean--"

George cuts him off and says "--he fell off the tower."

.....one of the most disturbingly funny things I was ever witness to.

(it should be noted, George was part of the Multiculturalism association and a good guy... it was just joking)

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

So, there's an exchange student that used to go here... George. That wasn't his real name, but we couldn't properly pronounce his real name so we called him George. George was cool. Liked to read, never said much when we'd be hanging out at lunch.

So, we're just sitting around and another friend of mine, Jay, starts telling off-color jokes. We all sort of join in. Racists jokes, sexist jokes, political jokes, religious jokes, etc. So at some point, someone makes a Jew joke. Jay, not even thinking about it and still laughing, turns to George and says "George, are there Jews in Germany?"

The table. Goes. Silent.

George looks up from his book, and Jay's face turns white. He starts in as though to apologize, has this horrified look on his face. And George says, "Well... not as many as there used to be."

And goes back to his book, stifling a chuckle.

We crack up hard.

Jay starts laughing, we're all saying things like "He got you, man... he got you, good".

Then George says, getting serious, "But I don't like to joke about that at all. Its not really that funny. My grandfather died in the camps."

Everyone sobers up, nodding. Jay kinda bows his head a bit and says "Yeah, I understand... it's cool, I didn't mean--"

George cuts him off and says "--he fell off the tower."

.....one of the most disturbingly funny things I was ever witness to.

(it should be noted, George was part of the Multiculturalism association and a good guy... it was just joking)

Yeah, those are some old jokes, but it must have been fun to seen them pulled off for real in good company. And sort of plays on the whole comedy versus reality thing. If his grandad really had been from the camps, it'd have been a different night for you.

I remember not too long ago I had a verbal gaffe like your friend's. I was in a conversation about sci-fi with a black friend of mine and we were talking about dystopian novels and he was saying how he had a big collection. Anyway, I ended up asking earnestly, "So you got a lot of Dick (as in Phillip K.)?" He looked at me awkwardly for awhile and then said: "That stereotype at least is true."

We had a good laugh afterwards.

And if you want real disturbingly funny, read Arsenic Lullabies.

 

[Guest]

My response was geared more towards

Its my contention that even in the case of stone-cold sober, it was a joke that no more warrants "he's just an ass" is a bit of a wonky belief.

And I think that type of joke (which really is a you had to be there type of joke) doesn't play well in this kind of forum.

People were actually trying to be nice here in assuming that your friend was drunk.

I really blow . . .

Now THAT'S funny.