Keep A Lid On Double Latte? (Caution: thread may contain politics or peanut oils)

[Clare Quilty]

If she's topless at Starbucks, that's another matter. For that, the price of a frozen mochachino would double, and I'd be upset for that reason...

I've never seen a woman remove her top in order to breast feed. I've never even heard of it. I agree that if a woman is completely disrobing in order to breast feed, then she has gone too far. If she has, on the other hand, merely exposed a breast to facilitate the act of feeding her child, she is well within her rights. I do not see any other grounds for objecting to the latter, other than a vaguely misogynistic, puritanical American tight-assed-ness. Any claim of a breach of etiquette, with respect to something so utterly wholesome, has to hinge on some deeply held hang-up. There is nothing lewd about it. It does not present a public health issue. There is no accompanying maliferous odor--nor a mammiferous one for that matter. What then, is the source of the outrage? I would really like to know, because I simply do not get it.

That is among the most inoffensive things I can think of--certainly as compare to other commonly accepted public displays like people smoking near the entrance to a building, or shouting into their two-way-radio-equipped cell phones. I, for one, have a reverential and courteous respect--akin to what I feel when in the presence of an old nun in full habit and wimple-- for nursing mothers and their connatural rights.

 

[Guest]

God bless you, Q. Yeah, I know you're an athiest, you get my drift I'm sure. P.

 

[Guest]

OK, I'm torn with this topic.

I breastfed both my children.

Of course breast milk is best for the baby - formula cannot even come close. And now scientists are saying it has possible intelligence as well as health benefits.

I was never "comfortable" in public exposing myself, as it were, so I was always able to have a little cloth to tastefully drape. In fact, my family has many pics of me, partially draped, nursing.

You don't have to take off your whole damn shirt to nurse a baby. I had nursing tops that opened, bras with little flaps, etc. Once you got baby settled, you weren't even exposed. No more than a low-cut top, anyway.

Unless the mom in question was shaking her ta-tas about for all to see I think the Starbucks management overreacted.

 

[Clare Quilty]

God bless you, Q. Yeah, I know you're an athiest, you get my drift I'm sure. P.

Several times people have questioned me about the deference I pay to nuns, being that I'm a devout atheist and all. Apparently my usually irreverent demeanor takes a 180° turn in the presence of nuns--but oddly not Preists or other clerics. It's a good thing for the continuance of my rapscallious nature, that there are no votresses of chaste Diana about in the world...

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

JESUS IS AGAINST BEAST-FEEDING FEMINAZIS! And if you disagree, why don't you move to Russia?



Okay, that aside. Etiquette. Eh. I think ettiquette is a moralization for gross egotism. I also think that what people should be is nicer to one another and to a tiny degree conscientious of other people. Bringing screaming kids to a romantic restaurant would be a bit mean-spirited, but quickly pulling out a boob in a booth at the local whatever restaurant doesn't strike me as over the top. And I would consider places like Starbucks one of the most open game because it's a prime place to stop whining baby and help replenish mommy at the same time.

As far as America's hangup about the breast. Eh. I thought Janet Jackson's little stunt was shite because it was a pathetic and <with full sarcasm> "edgy" stunt done by an overly corporate shock culture that doesn't know shock. I think the puritanical reactions are also shite because it's making these "edgy" "shock" stars feel like they're more hardcore than they really are. On that same note, Americans overboard reaction to the idea of breasts as anything more than a sex symbol is ludicrous. People like Ashcroft getting titilated by breast-feeders and open-boobed statues are pathetic losers who are so sexually repressed it's not even funny.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is: Eh. Women have boobs and they aren't just for sexual foreplay. The horror. The horror. Etc, etc.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Several times people have questioned me about the deference I pay to nuns, being that I'm a devout atheist and all. Apparently my usually irreverent demeanor takes a 180° turn in the presence of nuns--but oddly not Preists or other clerics. It's a good thing for the continuance of my rapscallious nature, that there are no votresses of chaste Diana about in the world...

Actually I know a devout pagan follower of Artemis. And to the best of my knowledge she has not yet known the touch of a man.

 

[Clare Quilty]

...Americans overboard reaction to the idea of breasts as anything more than a sex symbol is ludicrous. People like Ashcroft getting titilated by breast-feeders and open-boobed statues are pathetic losers who are so sexually repressed it's not even funny.

Here here! my good fellow.

 

[Guest]

Several times people have questioned me about the deference I pay to nuns, being that I'm a devout atheist and all. Apparently my usually irreverent demeanor takes a 180° turn in the presence of nuns--but oddly not Preists or other clerics...

Likewise, Q. I've been an ambivalent and mostly non-practicing Catholic since h.s., but nuns have received very short shrift from the RCC. Given where I work I know many 'sisters' my age and older who were let loose by the Roman administration to fend for themselves. Priests are fixed for life re. cost of living and retirement (not to mention the ability to live outside the law until recently); nuns for the most part are poor as the church mice. Since Vatican II when the majority chose to discard the full habits and actually work 'in the world' (e.g., become activists for themselves and other women) Rome has given them its disdain. They are the biggest 'first wives' club in the world and it's this treatment that keeps me angry at JP2 and his curia.

I know a nun who about 14 years ago while she and several lay women, including myself, were discussing the church's stance on birth control, said, "We are so overdue for another papal assasination attempt." I nearly crumpled to the ground, but I will never forget how serious she was.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

When my nephew was four years old, he got out of the bathtub one night and threw a tantrum when I insisted he put on his pajamas. We were at his grandparents' house, and they had dinner guests, and I told him it would be more polite to greet them clothed.

"You are so wrong," he shouted. "People like to see me naked!"

Poor oppressed little boy.

I thought the mention of "Breast Nazis" in the Post article was a bit extreme, although I expected a healthy debate here because I can see both sides. That some of you insist there is no other side that isn't motivated by some neurosis or other, is a little surprising. Is there really no reason you can imagine, other than some Puritanical disgust with the female body, that some of us porn fans might not wish to share a restaurant with a fully naked, lactating breast?

Must a person be obsessed with feet to expect everyone to wear shoes to the office? Or hate men's bodies if we'd prefer not to look at butt-crack on a stranger?

I think Dr. M expressed it nicely when he said there's a growing lack of respect for the separation of public and private space.

You're right, kid. People like to see you naked. Always and everywhere, people like to see you naked, whether you're attending a state dinner at the White House, meeting the Pope, or serving as a pallbearer. All behaviors are appropriate in all places and circumstances.

Good luck with that.

 

[shereads]

Re: OK, I'm torn with this topic.

I was never "comfortable" in public exposing myself, as it were, so I was always able to have a little cloth to tastefully drape. In fact, my family has many pics of me, partially draped, nursing.

You don't have to take off your whole damn shirt to nurse a baby. I had nursing tops that opened, bras with little flaps, etc.

Bravo. I think that's exactly the point the author of the Post article was trying to make.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

When my nephew was four years old, he got out of the bathtub one night and threw a tantrum when I insisted he put on his pajamas. We were at his grandparents' house, and they had dinner guests, and I told him it would be more polite to greet them clothed.

"You are so wrong," he shouted. "People like to see me naked!"

Poor oppressed little boy.

I thought the mention of "Breast Nazis" in the Post article was a bit extreme, although I expected a healthy debate here because I can see both sides. That some of you insist there is no other side that isn't motivated by some neurosis or other, is a little surprising. Is there really no reason you can imagine, other than some Puritanical disgust with the female body, that some of us porn fans might not wish to share a restaurant with a fully naked, lactating breast?

Must a person be obsessed with feet to expect everyone to wear shoes to the office? Or hate men's bodies if we'd prefer not to look at butt-crack on a stranger?

I think Dr. M expressed it nicely when he said there's a growing lack of respect for the separation of public and private space.

You're right, kid. People like to see you naked. Always and everywhere, people like to see you naked, whether you're attending a state dinner at the White House, meeting the Pope, or serving as a pallbearer. All behaviors are appropriate in all places and circumstances.

Good luck with that.

Oh come off it, sher.

There needs to be give and take.

People need to be nicer and more conscientious of other people.

They also need to stop clawing into everyone's lives and trying to play the tsking mother role.

Would I like the smoker to be kind enough not to exhale in my face? Yeah.
Would I like to force him to not be able to smoke in any location I happen to be in? Not really.

Would I hate someone bringing a baby into a fancy restaurant or think a lady whipping her complete top off to breastfeed an utterly rude person? Aye.
Do I believe that the mother should carry a crying hungry baby all the way through buses and subways until she reaches home in order to not offend the ettiquette sensibilities of coffee yuppies? Fuck no.

Yeah, in a perfect world everyone would be kind and conscientious and also not mind things like these, but perfect world is just another word for fucking dystopia so fuck that shit to Hell.

There are two sides and sometimes that means you have to admit that there are two sides.

P.S. Buttcracks don't bother me nor do shoeless people. Maybe it's being surrounded by freaks my entire life, but aberration doesn't shatter my soul like it does normal people. Just today working in the bookstore, I saw a man with a perfectly trimmed scholarly beard and stance wearing clothes completely covered in paint. I complimented him on his fashion sense with no twinge of irony or sarcasm.

 

[shereads]

I do not see any other grounds for objecting to the latter, other than a vaguely misogynistic, puritanical American tight-assed-ness. Any claim of a breach of etiquette, with respect to something so utterly wholesome, has to hinge on some deeply held hang-up.

Any claim that etiquette has not been breached when a restaurant customer has been offended to the extent of complaining to management has to hinge on a misunderstanding of what etiquette is all about. Either that, or there's a middle ground somewhere.

There is nothing lewd about it.

Or about bare feet. Or about eating with your fingers. Yet, in some venues, in some company, it's considered good etiquette to avoid those things.

What then, is the source of the outrage? I would really like to know, because I simply do not get it.

You don't have to "get" etiquette for it to be a good idea. You just have to accept that if your behavior in public is making some people uncomfortable, it might be nice to respect that and cover up a little. Or you can choose to hurl insults at them, and demand that they change to accommodate you. That works, too.

 

[Clare Quilty]

...Or about bare feet. Or about eating with your fingers. Yet, in some venues, in some company, it's considered good etiquette to avoid those things.

There is no comparison between someone with bare feet and a mother's right to feed her child. To suggest such is just silly. Whatever discomfort some people feel at the sight of a nursing mother, is a matter for them, their psychiatrist, and the good people at Eli Lilly. Where the care and well being of a baby is concerned, fuck parochial etiquette in its up-tight patriarchal ass. The interests of the child should supercede--not to mention there is no reason for a mother not to nurse in public that doesn't hinge on the continued adherence to the mores of a bunch of lunatics with belt buckles on their hats. I have yet to see anything that alludes to a logical reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[shereads]

There is no comparison between someone with bare feet and a mother's right to feed her child. To suggest such is just silly. Whatever discomfort some people feel at the sight of a nursing mother, is a matter for them, their psychiatrist, and the good people at Eli Lilly. Where the care and well being of a baby is concerned, fuck parochial etiquette in its up-tight patriarchal ass. The interests of the child should supercede--not to mention there is no reason for a mother not to nurse in public that doesn't hinge on the continued adherence to the mores of a bunch of lunatics with belt buckles on their hats. I have yet to see anything that alludes to a logical reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

You know, Clare, you're right. The welfare of the child is definitely in danger if a woman is asked to drape her breast while nursing. Anyone who can't see that deserves the full force of your wrath. Enjoy it.

 

[shereads]

Deleted

 

[Clare Quilty]

You know, Clare, you're right. The welfare of the child is definitely in danger if a woman is asked to drape her breast while nursing. Anyone who can't see that deserves the full force of your wrath. Enjoy it.

You have, as yet, fail to present a logical reason why a mother should not be able to nurse her child in public. All I've seen thus far a quite a lot of ridiculous non sequiturs about bare feet, women taking of their blouses in Starbucks and naked children attending state diners at the whitehouse. What I haven't seen is one good reason why something so basic, wholesome and multiply beneficial to society should be treated as though indecent. I'm inclined to think that those who would be offended by such a perfectly innocent display, are so because of the indecency that dwells behind their eyes, and not the mundane scene before them. Perhaps it is they who should be draped.

And yes, I would vigorously defend a mother feeding her child who was being hassled.

This discussion is going nowhere. You aren't going to change my mind. I have no interest in changing yours, and we've said all there is to say on the subject.

Adieu

 

[lucky-E-leven]

First: I don't think discretion is ever too much to ask. I also don't see very many people, of any walk of life or parental status, practicing much discretion at times.

Second: I won't ask about what people that find discomfort in open breast-feeding think about etiquette or morals. What interests me in your discomfort is how did it make you feel? (Nervous, aroused, inadequate, embarrassed, jealous?)

I nursed my daughter until she was seven months old and experienced a vast array of reactions. Believe it or not, I'm actually quite modest about my body (quiet in the peanut gallery ) and was always cautious of not letting it all hang out. This was particularly difficult for me due to my build, but I did my best with clothing or blankets. Let me tell you, living in Texas and producing way more body heat on a regular basis than is comfortable or natural, the added cover was a major pain in the ass for me and often stifled the lil Luckster. We survived. Sweat our asses off, but we're still kickin'.

Were people satisfied with this effort? Hell no! I, being relatively modest, tried to schedule outings around feeding times for the express purpose of not having to 'whip it out' in public. Most of the time it worked, but keeping a schedule on an infant is quite an oxymoron. The two simply do not co-exist well. I cannot recall how many times I was approached by people young, old, male and female with requests to stop altogether.

Their justifications, because I simply had to know, ranged from religious standards of exposing oneself, worry for their children's sensitivities & snickering, trouble with finishing their sandwich (in a large public park) and finally (this is my favorite) "Women like you make me sick. Would it kill you to wait until you got home?" I stared at her, dumbfounded, and then watched her walk back to her husband who was openly staring at me with tented khakis and punch him solidly in the chest.

All but the last seemed reasonable to me, had I been exposed, but the most anyone could've caught was me unbuttoning my blouse and unhooking my bra. I was covered before bare-nipple-in-plain-sight was ever an issue. I've always had it in my mind that the simple idea was what got to people more than the sight of breast flesh or nipples. I was even reprimanded by an elderly woman for nursing in the restroom of a nice restaurant that had couches and nice wing-backed chairs for such things. *shrug* I figured out very quickly that you simply cannot win.

In my opinion, the woman in the original post was making a statement. Anyone that has children or has been around enough of them knows that a 15 month old child can wait to eat. I understand that nursing to different ages is a matter of prerogative, but the simple fact is that she was testing those around her. Whomever complained failed the test and the mother had a crusade-worthy matter on her hands. Sorry, just calling it like I see it.

As per Doc's supposition that nursing in public is sometimes a call for attention, you're right. Key word here is 'sometimes'. What is it when someone drives their pimp-ride into a gas station and leaves their rap blaring while my daughter sits on the trunk of my car, her virgin ears absorbing the words bitch, mother fucker, niggah, ho and kill like a sponge. Same with college girls (not limited to, but mostly) wandering around town with a high-rise thong on with her ultra low-rise hip huggers. I happen to like girl's asses but am still a bit uncomfortable with the public indecency. There will always be assholes out to make a statement, as I believe this woman may have been. Still doesn't mean that I think any generalizations can be made for the rest of the crowd.

I feel like I've talked in a complete circle but in my mind there needn't be any laws restricting public nursing. There will always be a few bad apples, but as in many other instances in life, you the viewer/diner/passenger reserve the right to leave. Is it fair? Nope. Welcome to life. (Sidenote: The Starbucks in my neighborhood is constantly packed to the gills with obnoxiously swearing, provocatively dressing, smoking and hollering teens. Ambience? Pfft...)

~lucky

p.s. Nursing in public isn't always a pain in the ass. Riding on an airplane to Phoenix when the lil Luckster was 6 months old I was anxious about her happiness as well as eardrums rupturing or hurting. Of course, I wind up in a seat between two massive and quite imposing men. *le sigh* Well, we're lifting off and my ears hurt and the baby starts cranking. I did what I had to do, she ate and slept the entire way. No ear problems and aside from the top half of my tit sticking out of my button down blouse (and feeling terribly on display), I was happy. (I DO normally use a blanket but it was in the overhead bin. ) At any rate, when the plane landed, both men (perfect strangers) helped me carry my bags and stroller out of the gate, terminal, baggage claim and outside to the curb where my ride was waiting. So na-na-na-na-boo-boo on those that ever rained on me doing my level best to make everyone happy.

p.p.s. I guarantee the ambiance of any restaurant is crushed far worse by a screaming hungry child than it is by a quietly nursing one at the expense of a lil cleavage.

 

[Couture]

But here's the thing Sher, people used to not feel uncomfortable about the whole breastfeeding in public deal. Ask yourself why you are uncomfortable.

You are uncomfortable about it because you don't see it very often. Let's not make these mothers feel ashamed to do what is right for their children. I remember when I went to see the female impersonators at New Orleans. It was at a gay club. I admit to being pretty weirded out about seeing men kissing and dancing together. Five beers later...it didn't bother me.

So next time you are at Starbucks and see a mother breastfeeding a baby, and that little monster latched on to her nipple like a greedy little tick, take a flask from your purse and take a little nip. Still uncomfortable? Take another nip. Hell, pretty soon, you may find yourself asking the mother for a shot of fresh cream for your expresso. That would probably make the other patrons 'uncomfortable', but fuck those uptight ninnies.

 

[cantdog]

Where the care and well being of a baby is concerned, fuck parochial etiquette in its up-tight patriarchal ass.

You are a fountain of love today, Clare!

cantdog

 

[Guest]

 

[shereads]

Clare: Etiquette isn't logical. That was the point of those non-sequitors.

"Reverence for motherhood" is no more logical than etiquette. To make life a little more circumspect, most of us try to practice some of both in public places.

If don't particularly care where your breasts are, but if you woudn't mind posting a list of places where you dine, those of us who don't want to take our moms there for brunch can schedule around your public apparances. Then you can join the U.S. Diplomatic Corps and everybody will be happy.

 

[shereads]

But here's the thing Sher, people used to not feel uncomfortable about the whole breastfeeding in public deal. Ask yourself why you are uncomfortable.

I'm not uncomfortable around nursing mothers. I'm uncomfortable around nursing mothers who are indiscreet.

The discomfort barely registers if I'm alone, and not at all if I'm at the beach or a public park, alone or with other people. But if I'm with an older relative or my teenaged nephew or at a business lunch - and depending upon where we are and what degree of formality we had a reasonable right to expect when we came there - a flagrantly displayed breast makes me uncomfortable.

Why? I don't know. Courtesy means not asking, "What's your problem?" It means adapting our behavior to make others more comfortable, short of anything too burdensome.

There seems to be an impression that those who ask for "discretion" mean, "Don't nurse your baby in the same room with me." That's not the case. There are nursing moms who manage it just fine, as sweetsub did. And there are others, like it or not, who seem to be trying to call attention to themselves, just as Dr. M pointed out. Just as there are parents who make no distinction between Chuck E. Cheese and a book store when governing their kids' behavior, the ones who dare anybody to object are usually a minority. Thank God. Most people take stock of where they are, and behave accordingly.

 

[cantdog]

The drape thing still doesn't stop people from becoming offended. Nothing does. Many people, ask any waitron unit, come to restaurants to have fun abusing the waitstaff. They score biggest when they can get an assurance that the person is fired. They love to be offended.

Matthew tells people to pray in a closet. Ostentatious prayer ceases to be entirely about prayer. But ostentation in religion is really big just the same. And a lot of the pious love to be offended.

Then there are patrons of Faux Maison paying a hundred a plate not counting tip, which they might not do anyway because they have become offended at the waiter. One of them is offended.

That doesn't say much, sher, about the why of it. Even granting your argument about the existence of social constructs at which various levels of behavior apply, the evidence of someone being offended enough to go (gasp!) to the restaurant's management isn't necessarily evidence that etiquette has been breached.

People complained about Jews being let in to a quality restaurant. They were quite offended. People complained about colored people, ditto. I taught school, teaching German and French, and the parent of one of my students was offended.

"If English," she said, raising the King James high, "was good enough for Paul and good enough for Moses, it's good enough for my little boy."

She was offended.

They're all offended all the time, and after a while you get so you just don't much give a shit any more. But you do try not to be offensive to the extent that you can. When it still doesn't work, too bad.

 

[RenzaJones]

Re: OK, I'm torn with this topic.

I breastfed both my children.

Of course breast milk is best for the baby - formula cannot even come close. And now scientists are saying it has possible intelligence as well as health benefits.

I was never "comfortable" in public exposing myself, as it were, so I was always able to have a little cloth to tastefully drape. In fact, my family has many pics of me, partially draped, nursing.

You don't have to take off your whole damn shirt to nurse a baby. I had nursing tops that opened, bras with little flaps, etc. Once you got baby settled, you weren't even exposed. No more than a low-cut top, anyway.

Unless the mom in question was shaking her ta-tas about for all to see I think the Starbucks management overreacted.

I've done the drape thing but Zen apparently doesn't like it since she always fiddles with the blanket or cloth diaper in question more than once she's yanked it off

 

[Guest]

Thanks, MSL -

In the U.S., we really are tough on nursing moms.

I have witnessed the moms who use breast-feeding merely as a way to express their voyeuristic tendencies.

And I've seen painfully shy moms hurry off with miserable babies to try and find a darkened corner for a quiet spot to nurse. You know, MOST public women's bathrooms don't have that extra lounging area with a couch. Ya ever attempted to nurse IN a stall???

And I remember at a college football game once, a grad student colleague was attempting to nurse. That time, I actually asked her why she was trying to do it there. The crowd was noisy, the baby wasn't calm, I don't think I could have relaxed myself to "let my milk down" (nursing moms understand). She tried for awhile, until she finally gave up and found a better spot. The football fans around her were a bit relieved - LOL -

And going back to work after having a child? Hopeless. If you still want to breastfeed, you have to use pumps during the day (usually your lunch hour) and then find someplace to store the expressed milk until you go home. With your babe in daycare, the caregivers will be giving them bottles (of breast milk) but still bottles - that is confusing to a baby and can make nursing more difficult. AND good luck finding a bit of privacy at work, or sympathy from your coworkers or boss!

Times are changing, I know - but currently things are not set up in the nursing mom's favor.

And then of course there is the length of time one nurses a baby. One of my aunts breast fed her youngest wayyy too long. I mean, honestly, it's probably time to stop when the child can say, "How about a little?"