Keep A Lid On Double Latte? (Caution: thread may contain politics or peanut oils)

[dr_mabeuse]

I think we should encourage mothers to give birth at Starbuck's. The coffee is soooo good!

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

I'm not uncomfortable around nursing mothers. I'm uncomfortable around nursing mothers who are indiscreet.

Most people take stock of where they are, and behave accordingly.

Yes. That is exactly the case, isn't it? If people would behave accordingly, with grace and manners, most of these issues would disappear. Of course, as cant said, some people just like to bitch and it doesn't matter what you do. (I remember holding my daughter once in a restaurant in a breast-feeding position until she fell asleep because it calmed her - I wasn't nursing, but I was receiving glances from a table of bitches. My top was NEVER EVEN open.)

But if we see someone nursing I have no problem explaining to my children that what the woman over there is doing is feeding her baby, as they were fed when they were babies. And how normal and natural it is, ya da ya da.

BUT - if woman in question is jiggling a bit too much, I'd rather my 5-year-old son not get the chance to ogle her goodies until he's a bit older and can read it in the magazines I know he'll have stashed under his mattress.

*ahem*

 

[Guest]

I think we should encourage mothers to give birth at Starbuck's. The coffee is soooo good!

Mab., you're a hoot, or zoot, whatever. Made me laugh loud. P.

Lucky: loved your post.

Q: still with you.

Sher: your puritanism (or think of another word) comes through no matter what you write. You talk about a fully exposed tit, then about graceful draping, and etiquette is such a formal term it does not belong in a discussion of breastfeeding at Starbucks. This is not the first arguement in which I've read you flailing about, back and forth, hither and yon. Plus, you keep getting off the point in trying to defend your post-by-post logic at the expense of the main point, and wit. I'm not slamming you really, just wish you'd take note of how you appear in print (to many more than just me).

Perdita

 

[shereads]

First: I don't think discretion is ever too much to ask. I also don't see very many people, of any walk of life or parental status, practicing much discretion at times.

Second: I won't ask about what people that find discomfort in open breast-feeding think about etiquette or morals. What interests me in your discomfort is how did it make you feel? (Nervous, aroused, inadequate, embarrassed, jealous?)

I nursed my daughter until she was seven months old and experienced a vast array of reactions. Believe it or not, I'm actually quite modest about my body (quiet in the peanut gallery ) and was always cautious of not letting it all hang out. This was particularly difficult for me due to my build, but I did my best with clothing or blankets. Let me tell you, living in Texas and producing way more body heat on a regular basis than is comfortable or natural, the added cover was a major pain in the ass for me and often stifled the lil Luckster. We survived. Sweat our asses off, but we're still kickin'.

Were people satisfied with this effort? Hell no! I, being relatively modest, tried to schedule outings around feeding times for the express purpose of not having to 'whip it out' in public. Most of the time it worked, but keeping a schedule on an infant is quite an oxymoron. The two simply do not co-exist well. I cannot recall how many times I was approached by people young, old, male and female with requests to stop altogether.

Their justifications, because I simply had to know, ranged from religious standards of exposing oneself, worry for their children's sensitivities & snickering, trouble with finishing their sandwich (in a large public park) and finally (this is my favorite) "Women like you make me sick. Would it kill you to wait until you got home?" I stared at her, dumbfounded, and then watched her walk back to her husband who was openly staring at me with tented khakis and punch him solidly in the chest.

All but the last seemed reasonable to me, had I been exposed, but the most anyone could've caught was me unbuttoning my blouse and unhooking my bra. I was covered before bare-nipple-in-plain-sight was ever an issue. I've always had it in my mind that the simple idea was what got to people more than the sight of breast flesh or nipples. I was even reprimanded by an elderly woman for nursing in the restroom of a nice restaurant that had couches and nice wing-backed chairs for such things. *shrug* I figured out very quickly that you simply cannot win.

In my opinion, the woman in the original post was making a statement. Anyone that has children or has been around enough of them knows that a 15 month old child can wait to eat. I understand that nursing to different ages is a matter of prerogative, but the simple fact is that she was testing those around her. Whomever complained failed the test and the mother had a crusade-worthy matter on her hands. Sorry, just calling it like I see it.

As per Doc's supposition that nursing in public is sometimes a call for attention, you're right. Key word here is 'sometimes'. What is it when someone drives their pimp-ride into a gas station and leaves their rap blaring while my daughter sits on the trunk of my car, her virgin ears absorbing the words bitch, mother fucker, niggah, ho and kill like a sponge. Same with college girls (not limited to, but mostly) wandering around town with a high-rise thong on with her ultra low-rise hip huggers. I happen to like girl's asses but am still a bit uncomfortable with the public indecency. There will always be assholes out to make a statement, as I believe this woman may have been. Still doesn't mean that I think any generalizations can be made for the rest of the crowd.

I feel like I've talked in a complete circle but in my mind there needn't be any laws restricting public nursing. There will always be a few bad apples, but as in many other instances in life, you the viewer/diner/passenger reserve the right to leave. Is it fair? Nope. Welcome to life. (Sidenote: The Starbucks in my neighborhood is constantly packed to the gills with obnoxiously swearing, provocatively dressing, smoking and hollering teens. Ambience? Pfft...)

~lucky

p.s. Nursing in public isn't always a pain in the ass. Riding on an airplane to Phoenix when the lil Luckster was 6 months old I was anxious about her happiness as well as eardrums rupturing or hurting. Of course, I wind up in a seat between two massive and quite imposing men. *le sigh* Well, we're lifting off and my ears hurt and the baby starts cranking. I did what I had to do, she ate and slept the entire way. No ear problems and aside from the top half of my tit sticking out of my button down blouse (and feeling terribly on display), I was happy. (I DO normally use a blanket but it was in the overhead bin. ) At any rate, when the plane landed, both men (perfect strangers) helped me carry my bags and stroller out of the gate, terminal, baggage claim and outside to the curb where my ride was waiting. So na-na-na-na-boo-boo on those that ever rained on me doing my level best to make everyone happy.

p.p.s. I guarantee the ambiance of any restaurant is crushed far worse by a screaming hungry child than it is by a quietly nursing one at the expense of a lil cleavage.

Lucky, I agree with everything you've said. Anyone who's rude to a mother who's doing what needs to be done and minding her own business, is probably rude at every opportuniy. I don't want to see laws against breast feeding in public. Just the kind of respect that you and subsarah obviously show. When it's impossible or uncomfortable, that's understandable. I never intended to defend people who are rude to nursing moms. I'm also one of those people who try to help out when I see a mom juggling an infant and a toddler, or being sneered at when her child is fussy on the plane. I'm neither anti-child nor anti-breast.

 

[shereads]

Little Luckster's Eardrums

Riding on an airplane to Phoenix when the lil Luckster was 6 months old I was anxious about her happiness as well as eardrums rupturing or hurting.

Next time you and LL need to fly, look in your drugstore where the ear drops and ear plugs are displayed, for a product called "Ear Planes." They come in a child size. I've used them for years, because I used to get godawful pain in one ear when the plane would begin to reduce altitude. These little disposable tube-thingies have something inside that looks like a tiny bead, and it moves up or down in the tube as cabin pressure changes. It's miraculous. No more earaches on airplanes since I discovered them.

 

[shereads]

Mab., you're a hoot, or zoot, whatever. Made me laugh loud. P.

Lucky: loved your post.

Q: still with you.

Sher: your puritanism (or think of another word) comes through no matter what you write. You talk about a fully exposed tit, then about graceful draping, and etiquette is such a formal term it does not belong in a discussion of breastfeeding at Starbucks. This is not the first arguement in which I've read you flailing about, back and forth, hither and yon. Plus, you keep getting off the point in trying to defend your post-by-post logic at the expense of the main point, and wit. I'm not slamming you really, just wish you'd take note of how you appear in print (to many more than just me).

Perdita

Perdita, I don't doubt that some of my upbringing in a sexually oppressive religious environment still influences how I feel about public behavior. People's expectations are shaped by all sorts of influences, for which some of us make allowances and some don't. I'm not sure what gave you the compulsion to be a controlling scold, poppiing up now and again to announce that you are ignoring something or that you find it distasteful. I'm not slamming you, just wish you'd take note of how you appear in print (to many more than just me.) I crave your approval the way I crave a slice of whole wheat toast. I can take it or leave it.

 

[shereads]

Yes. That is exactly the case, isn't it? If people would behave accordingly, with grace and manners, most of these issues would disappear. Of course, as cant said, some people just like to bitch and it doesn't matter what you do. (I remember holding my daughter once in a restaurant in a breast-feeding position until she fell asleep because it calmed her - I wasn't nursing, but I was receiving glances from a table of bitches. My top was NEVER EVEN open.)

But if we see someone nursing I have no problem explaining to my children that what the woman over there is doing is feeding her baby, as they were fed when they were babies. And how normal and natural it is, ya da ya da.

BUT - if woman in question is jiggling a bit too much, I'd rather my 5-year-old son not get the chance to ogle her goodies until he's a bit older and can read it in the magazines I know he'll have stashed under his mattress.

*ahem*

Amen.

 

[shereads]

Re: Thanks, MSL -

And then of course there is the length of time one nurses a baby. One of my aunts breast fed her youngest wayyy too long. I mean, honestly, it's probably time to stop when the child can say, "How about a little?"

Heehee.

 

[Guest]

I'm not sure what gave you the compulsion to be a controlling scold, poppiing up now and again to announce that you are ignoring something or that you find it distasteful.

Made me larf. I don't see how popping up now and again makes it a compulsion. No, you merely annoy me enough at times so that I need to air out my inner girlie-bitch. Thank goodness you don't take me seriously, I certainly haven't taken you so in a long time. anon, P.

 

[shereads]

Made me larf. I don't see how popping up now and again makes it a compulsion. No, you merely annoy me enough at times so that I need to air out my inner girlie-bitch. Thank goodness you don't take me seriously, I certainly haven't taken you so in a long time. anon, P.

Please don't bump the thread. Someone may be trying to ignore it.

Btw, your inner bitch is an outie. I was warned to look out for it, but I don't mind, really. It takes all kinds.

 

[cantdog]

What a privilege it has been to witness this exchange!

I am once again made conscious of how rare and precious it is to have discovered this amazing pseudoplace, the A.H.


Courage, sher! That's what it took to even open the can on this thread. And what fruit it has borne! Ed Teach's remark about the legs of the preteen! Clare's inspired rant against Miss Manners and Emily Post in all their guises! Fun like this you couldn't pay to have happen.


cantdog

 

[Edward Teach]

What a privilege it has been to witness this exchange!

I am once again made conscious of how rare and precious it is to have discovered this amazing pseudoplace, the A.H.


Courage, sher! That's what it took to even open the can on this thread. And what fruit it has borne! Ed Teach's remark about the legs of the preteen! Clare's inspired rant against Miss Manners and Emily Post in all their guises! Fun like this you couldn't pay to have happen.


cantdog

Cant, I didn't say anything about the legs of a preteen. I was making a joke about how old the child could be before it was considered offensive to be nursing it in public.

It was a joke. Sher got it.

Ed

 

[cantdog]

.

 

[TheEarl]

I think quit a few of the arguments here are coming from people assuming the other is making an extreme point.

As far as I'm aware - No-one has said that nursing mothers should not feed their babies in public.

Also, no-one has said that nursing mothers should be allowed to take off their tops and flaunt their breasts while feeding their baby.

This leads a lot of middle ground which everyone seems to be agreeing on. The only problem is that everyone seems to be accusing everybody else of holding the extremist position. Thus the argument is perpetuated and we start calling names and jumping on people and getting snide. Call me a hippy, but there's no need for all that aggression.

The Earl

 

[Edward Teach]

I think quit a few of the arguments here are coming from people assuming the other is making an extreme point.

As far as I'm aware - No-one has said that nursing mothers should not feed their babies in public.

Also, no-one has said that nursing mothers should be allowed to take off their tops and flaunt their breasts while feeding their baby.

This leads a lot of middle ground which everyone seems to be agreeing on. The only problem is that everyone seems to be accusing everybody else of holding the extremist position. Thus the argument is perpetuated and we start calling names and jumping on people and getting snide. Call me a hippy, but there's no need for all that aggression.

The Earl

What Earl said.

Ed

 

[Guest]

What Earl said.

Ed

He's a hippy?

 

[Edward Teach]

He's a hippy?

 

[Guest]

He's a hippy?

Darling boy, you're not quite 20, how can you possibly know what a hippy truly is. However, you do humble me; your manners are the kind that cannot be taught.

Pear

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I think quit a few of the arguments here are coming from people assuming the other is making an extreme point.

As far as I'm aware - No-one has said that nursing mothers should not feed their babies in public.

Also, no-one has said that nursing mothers should be allowed to take off their tops and flaunt their breasts while feeding their baby.

This leads a lot of middle ground which everyone seems to be agreeing on. The only problem is that everyone seems to be accusing everybody else of holding the extremist position. Thus the argument is perpetuated and we start calling names and jumping on people and getting snide. Call me a hippy, but there's no need for all that aggression.

The Earl

<ducks from random stone tossings> Um, but I do disagree with one of those points. I believe the woman should be allowed to flaunt while nursing, only that it wouldn't be all that conscientious (and by the way about only 3% of the population are genuinely conscientious and they're often beaten and insulted as spineless wimps).

Also, I should have made this point earlier but yelling screaming crying annoying little baby from Hell is far far far far more annoying than a woman stripping naked and humping the espresso machine. So discrete or non-discrete tit flash doesn't even blip on the radar.

I think the whole reason that there is such a big debate on it is the same reason that tit flashers at concerts get crowds of people to scan desperately and cheer. A man of this type will turn away from painted breasts pointed at him from three feet away to fight with his friends to get a view of the tit flasher 400 yds away who happens to be pointing the wrong way. And yes, I witnessed this pathetic exchange of man at my last rock concert. I spent a bemused 3 minutes scanning from the morons to the painted woman in question and laughing.

<puts flak helmet on> Now back to the bloodshed.

 

[shereads]

.

That's one of my favorite quotes, too, cant.

Where is Somme, anyway?

 

[yui]

Oops. Sorry.

 

[yui]

This is what I was trying to share...

The Art of Breastfeeding


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/805074/artofbreastfeeding.jpg

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Lucky, I agree with everything you've said. Anyone who's rude to a mother who's doing what needs to be done and minding her own business, is probably rude at every opportuniy. I don't want to see laws against breast feeding in public. Just the kind of respect that you and subsarah obviously show. When it's impossible or uncomfortable, that's understandable. I never intended to defend people who are rude to nursing moms. I'm also one of those people who try to help out when I see a mom juggling an infant and a toddler, or being sneered at when her child is fussy on the plane. I'm neither anti-child nor anti-breast.

I didn't think you were defending all circumstances of public nursing. I just wanted to drop my two pennies on the matter. I don't think it's too much to ask that people understand and respect other's potential discomfort, but what I think is okay might totally turn your stomach. I think that's what the issue is more than anything else. What is offensive to the majority? (I'm intensely curious as to why, also.)

Of course, I do think nursing is perfectly natural in any context but that's just me. I actually feel touched to see it and proud for the woman that can. I've known many that were so mortified that they suffered with the physical pain of holding back AND the upset child they had with them.

I think your point of taking your mother somewhere and knowing it would cause her discomfort is probably the best and most understandable. The client lunch, however, I tend to see more as a distraction issue. And in that case, if the business at hand is that focus sensitive it may be best to have it in an office rather than a busy/noisy restaurant. Opinions and belly buttons...

On the note of taking Mom somewhere though, I always think of things my Mother used to rail against when I was a kid and that she's adapted to now. I can't help but think it's just time for that to not be an issue or cause of discomfort. Maybe next time you take her to lunch you should pack along a little of your favorite porn on this site. You know, distract her a little?

~lucky

 

[shereads]

Lucky, my mom still can't bring herself to say "hell." If she's cut off in trafifc, she wishes the driver to "H-E-Double-L."

And you want her to find out her baby girl hangs out with pornographers?



I've never asked, but I suspect her children were bottle-fed.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Lucky, my mom still can't bring herself to say "hell." If she's cut off in trafifc, she wishes the driver to "H-E-Double-L."

And you want her to find out her baby girl hangs out with pornographers?



I've never asked, but I suspect her children were bottle-fed.

I'm disappointed. I thought for sure it'd be H-E-double hockey sticks. Hmm...

I was only trying to help, Sher. The woman obviously has tit-issues. I figured a little bit of bdsm or anal would take her mind off of it is all. C'mon, sacrifice your pride for Mom's sake. Never know, if she reads the words cock, pussy and fuck enough times in one story she might get over her aversion to saying 'Hell' as it was meant to be said. Could be theraputic.



~lucky