Kerry/Edwards=Cheap/Tawdry

[Boota]

Off topic, but in reply...

The war in Iraq is in no way connected to 9/11, despite what Bush and Co. tried to say. The proof is out, as is the proof that they knew all of this before they went to war. The war in Iraq is a war of conquest and it is something that I thought America would never do again. When all the viable excuses for going to war with Iraq are evaluated, the only logical excuse remaining is that we went to war to secure control of an oil rich country and to pad the wallets of the companies who "won" the bids to rebuild what we destroyed. Iraq was NEVER a threat to us, and this was known by all levels of the administration. So, why go? Money.

I used to be proud of my country, but I'm not anymore. George W. Bush stole that from me. I love my country and I'm glad I live here, but I am thoroughly disgusted by the actions of my government. I can't be proud of the fact that we are conducting a war of conquest. I can't be proud of the fact that we openly ignored evidence in a rush to go to war with a country who was not a threat, while ignoring the people who really were the threat. I can't be proud of a country whose President is petitioning the Congress to cut the combat pay of the troops currently dying for his folly. I could write for days on the things that are wrong with the Bush administration that have made me ashamed of my governments actions and our loss of credibility in the world.


Back to topic...

As bad as his bigoted religious attack toward homosexuals has been, it is the least of my problems with him. I don't respect him as a man, much less as a President. I gave him the benefit of the doubt after 9/11 and he proved to me that he is exactly what I always knew he was.

 

[Couture]

Didn't know this. Was this because of her choice, because she doesn't support her dad's politics on the matter? (I may be misinformed, but afaik they are on speaking terms) Or was that choice made by Cheney and/or the party? There's some difference there I think.

I have no idea why. But is was telling that the party of family values didn't bring the whole family on stage.

The greatest threat to marriage is divorce, however, you don't see a constitutional ammendment to divorce now do you?

 

[Liar]

I have no idea why. But is was telling that the party of family values didn't bring the whole family on stage.

Not per se no. If the reason she wasn't there is because the party thinks she's an embarrassment or something along those lines then it's telling. Despickable even.

If the reason is that she didn't feel like coming...because it's her choice not to support Cheney's and the Republicans' political views... or maybe she had the flu, what do I know? Then what the blazes is Cheney going to do? Either leave the rest of the family at home, or have his daugther there, smiling and waving at gunpoint?

As I said, I don't know the facts behind that specific case. But until I do, I don't want to draw conclusions.

#L

 

[Guest]

Mary Cheney was her father's chief campaign manager last September. After her father 'admitted' that his daughter was a lesbian she was inundated by the press and mostly had 'no comment' (she had always preferred to stay unnoticed and behind the scenes). I don't know what has changed since then re. her voting views or public appearances, but it cannot be easy for her even if she and her family are close and united. Fundamentalists have called her a sinner and lesbian activists have dubbed her a traitor.

Perdita

Edited to add: Mary Cheney did attend the convention and was photographed on stage, etc. Some gay activists were disappointed that she did not bring her partner.

 

[Couture]

"Our niggers is better off than most anybody's niggers, why, they got washing machines and some of'um even got televisions. I can't understand why they complaining." Strom Thurmond


"If the segreation program of the president
is enforced, the results of civil strife may be
horrible beyond imagination. Lawlessness will be
rampant. Chaos will prevail. Our streets will be
unsafe. And there will be the greatest breakdown
of law enforcement in the history of the nation." Stom Thurmond


"You know, Josh Burkeen is our rep down here in the southeast area. He lives in Colgate and travels out of Atoka. He was telling me lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they’ll only let one girl go to the bathroom. Now think about it. Think about that issue. How is it that that’s happened to us?" - Tom Coburn, 8/31/04
Tom Colburn was appointed by Bush to direct the US's HIVAids policy and is not running for a seat in the Senate.

"It's about the children," wrote Brownback. "When it comes to promoting a federal anti-marriage amendment, "it truly is about the survival of our culture."Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS)

 

[BlackSnake]

I do not believe that America's crediblity was loss at the start of the War in Iraq. Do you really think that? Do you recall the Gulf War? Do you really believe that this war is so that America can gain control of the oil in Iraq? Have you been to the gas pump lately? Where's the oil? Have you fallen for every sound bite?

Let me tell you; Bush haven't given me a reason to vote for him, but Kerry's only stance is that he is not Bush.

During the Clinton/Bush Sr. race, I sure as hell wasn't going to vote for Clintion, and Bush Sr. gave me a reason not to vote for him. Yep, I believed that Ross Perot would have done a better job. I am running into the same issue in this race, except there isn't a Ross Perot I still have this feeling that a lot of things would not have happened against Americans had he been elected. We need a Ross Perot in this race.

 

[amicus]

Well...I watched all four debates...closely...and some again in late night reruns...and I can assure you from body posture and facial expression, both Kerry and Edwards carried out a planned pre emptive strike against the gay marriage amendment by attempting to humiliate the Republicans by drawing attention to Vice President Cheney's daughter.

For most of the day I have listened to both cable and Network news describing Kerry's action as a 'low blow' contemptible, no place in American Politics...most as asking for an apology from the Kerry/Edwards campaign and from the DNC.

Democrats when interviewed blush and become uncomfortable and try to make excuses for what was inexcusable by both Kerry and Edwards. "These are not good people..." I think Mrs. Cheney said, "My daughter did nothing to deserve this..."

I wondered just how the left would respond, I should not have. Totally in character for those who have no moral or ethical base but exercise situational ethics.

Marriage between a man and a woman is a legal contract, valid in the courts and comes with many stipulations.

The reason it must become a constitutional matter is that 'judges' and courts are making and changing law from state to state.

Changing law is not the function of the court or the judges, it is a matter of the people, through their legislators and eventually congress to resolve.

No wonder Kerry does not wish to call himself a Liberal, far too embarassing.

This forum...have you no shame?

amicus...

 

[Couture]

The reason it must become a constitutional matter is that 'judges' and courts are making and changing law from state to state.

No wonder Kerry does not wish to call himself a Liberal, far to embarassing.

This forum...have you no shame?

amicus...

By your words, you have no concern for Mary Cheney.

Changing law is not the function of the court or the judges, it is a matter of the people, through their legislators and eventually congress to resolve.

Brown vs the Board of Education. I can find a hundred other cases that have protected women...minorities...people with disabilities....you and me.

And if you are so concerned with Mary Cheney, then fight for her rights. Assure her that she will have the same rights as everyone else. Assure her equal protection under the law.

I say the same thing to Kerry, Edwards, Lynn, and Dick...if you are so concerned with Mary, then fight for her rights.

 

[amicus]

I am neither female nor pussified...I do not need to personalize or subjectify an issue with a real live person in order to make a point.

It is called objectivity...you might try it some time instead of your continual personal attacks.

I am not concerned with Mary Cheney, nor even with the Kerry/Edwards debacle.

What they and the DNC perpetrated was rude, cruel and unconscionable and most everyone alive knows that except this myopic forum.

It is the issue at hand, neither Kerry nor Edwards have that degree of dignity required by the office of the President.

Everyone senses that...they also know that the democrat party has campaigned totally away from its base, its very liberal base.

Kerry had the audacity to openly pronounce he would employ a 'litmus test' to all judicial appointees to preclude the reversal of Roe v Wade in any future court.

That means if he were elected, there would be no appointments approved by Congress in which both houses will be even more a Republican majority.

The chickens have come home to rest.

amicus...

 

[magmaman]

Heck of a note, we are at war and everbody is concerned about sombody being a homosexual.

In a good world, nobody would even know, they wouldn't be running around yelling that they is homos..

Like who cares shut the dam door.

War, people getting killed and stuff kinda matters. Bunch of them came here and killed a bunch of us, I know, most of you forgot...

Go back to your lattes..worry about the head gasket on yer SUV..geez..

We have a tough president and a pussy challenger, Kerry's been a dove for 30 years and he aint changed..

Plus he lied, I dint kill no babies...fuck kerry, piece of shit.

He thinks that some 65% will hate homos and vote for him real reason for that comment..

Oh hell what do I know, they shot us to rag dolls and then when we was winning they said run and we did.

Nobody spit on me for the million we left behind that died. Didn't even make the paper..I got one lung left the other over there, fuck kerry..pice of lying shit
MGM

 

[Pure]

Signs of hope

Until these debates, my hopes were low.

NOW, LET'S CELEBRATE!!!!!

Amicus, you and the Repubs *raise our hope* a lot.

The repeated silly, lines I'm hearing are signs of desperation.

"Isn't it awful what they did to Mary Cheney?" (hypocrisy)

"Litmus test" (a distortion)

"He's on the left bank."

"He'd have the US ask permission to defend itself." (a lie).

THANKS AMICUS, FOR BRINGING THIS STUFF HERE. I'M GREATLY ENCOURAGED!!

 

[Edward Teach]

The greatest threat to marriage is divorce, however, you don't see a constitutional ammendment to divorce now do you?

Shhhh!



Ed The Cautious

 

[Colleen Thomas]

By your words, you have no concern for Mary Cheney.


I say the same thing to Kerry, Edwards, Lynn, and Dick...if you are so concerned with Mary, then fight for her rights.

I do not believe your average republican gives a hoot in Hell about Mary Cheeny. Not that I think the Democrats do either.

After reading the news and several pundits, both left & right, I feel Kerry erred. Whatever the intent, it is widely percieved as a very low blow, politics at it's worst. That was my perception, having no background.

The GOP is taking this error and using it to advantage, which is every bit as callous as Kerry using it for advantage in the debate in the first place was. Neither side has a very strong claim to being classy or upright.

The bottom line for the GOP is that there was no call for Kerry to bring her up. The question did not demand that he mention her, in doing so he opened himself up to the perception of being an extremely grasping, callous, opportunist.

The bottom line for dems is that the GOP, due to their obvious homophobic platform has no right to say squat. Hypocracy abounds.

When I first opined here I was ignorant and Dita called me on it. I have rectified that. I think John Kerry is a sleezeball. I think GWB is a low grade moron. I don't need further evidence for either of those opinions so this tempest in a tea pot shouldn't mean anything to me.

I am however a lesbian. My father is a staunch republican. I think, as well as anyone who doesn't know the principals, I can sympathize with Mary Cheeny. I believe John Kerry's statement was, at the least, insensensitive and at worst, political showmanship of the lowest kind. The question he was asked did not demand he bring her name up. He chose to do so.

I agree wholly with your broader statements on the evil of trying to instituionalize descrimination against a group of people. I agree that the GOP has adopted a program of trying to use religion as a guide for politics.

I still think John Kerry was wrong. I think he is paying a dear price for it in public perception. While I am glad to see him paying for it, I cannot help but think about Mary Cheeny and the price she is paying. I don't know how many "no comments" she has had to issue, but I know at least three.

John Kerry wants to be president, he signed up for having his words & private life dissected. Mary Cheeny's only crime is being a lesbian and having a father who is running for VP. She is now at the center of a maelstorm. She is there because of the words of John Kerry and I find that sickening.

-Colly

 

[fogbank]

Originally posted by Colleen Thomas Mary Cheeny's only crime is being a lesbian and having a father who is running for VP. She is now at the center of a maelstorm. She is there because of the words of John Kerry and I find that sickening.

-Colly [/B]

I really don't know about that. The media I saw never even mentioned the Mary Cheney reference until the Republican pundits came on and started to decry this as dirty politics and victimization. It's now twenty times the issue it would have been if the Republicans had just left it.

Throughout the debates, candidates have talked about the other candidates' families, parents, and children, and nobody has complained. They have talked about how tax policies effect each other's families. But when Mary Cheney is mentioned, the Republicans claim that the Democrats are suddenly making a freaking pariah out of her? Why? Because she's lesbian? Because she's lesbian, she's become unmentionable, off-limits? Isn't that the worst possible descrimination--that we cannot talk about her because she is different? As though she's some unspeakable family secret? It's the same logic that says that affirmitive action is wrong because it's singling out women or ethnic minorities as someone different and disadvantaged--the logic that says that to acknowledge the issue is to make it worse, so let's just shut up about it and pretend that everyone we know is the same as us.

 

[Edward Teach]

Cheap Shot

I agree that Kerry's comments about Mary Cheney were out of line. It was a cheap shot. I personally do not like it.

However, I think it was calculated and produced exactly the response the Dems hoped for; a media frenzy.

Attention has now been focused on Bush's attempt to appeal to his base through thinly veiled gay bashing. His calling for a constitutional amendment bannig same sex marriage and denying benefits to same sex partners is nothing but gay bashing.


Ed

 

[Guest]

I really don't know about that. The media I saw never even mentioned the Mary Cheney reference until the Republican pundits came on and started to decry this as dirty politics and victimization. It's now twenty times the issue it would have been if the Republicans had just left it.

I agree with this, Fog.

Colly, If you did not actually watch and listen to the debate then I can't really take your comments as more than a short distance away from your original knee-jerks. Researching something that happened only days ago is not the same as researching history, all reportage on this is tainted.

It may well be that Kerry 'used' Mary Cheney for more than the obvious, but I don't see how anyone who heard and saw him could think it was done without great respect and tact. What is truly not respectful now is the repubs milking it with no tact or regard for Ms. Cheney. Mrs. Cheney's remarks truly shocked me (for her daughter's sake, not to do with Kerry).

Perdita

 

[sweetnpetite]

You want to know what I think is beneath contempt?

The man's whole family was on stage with him during the convention - his whole family except for one child. His gay daughter.

His own party endorses discrimination against gay people and Cheney has nothing to say. Their rhetoric is increasing hate crimes and animosity toward gay people of whom his daughter is one.

If you won't stand up for your own children, who will you stand up for? IMHO, Edwards gave Cheney far too much credit during his debate on the subject. He should have said, "Have you no decency sir? Stand up for your daughter's rights because you love her, and it's the right thing to do for all human beings. Or will you be remembered like Strom Thurman who had a mixed race child yet sought to discriminate against blacks?

You want to talk about contempt, because Kerry put a human face on the Republican's campaign of bigotry and discrimination. I'll tell you about contempt. Contempt is what I feel for the racists and bigots of the world who seek to rise to power on the backs of the few or the weak.

I really don't know why I bother to reply to you amicus. You don't give a happy damn for Mary Cheney. If you did, you would want her to have the same rights and freedoms as the rest of America. Your mock outrage is as transparent as your arguments.

I think you said this so well. There is nothing left to do but agree and lend my support to your words.

 

[Pure]

couture makes excellent points. republican hypocrisy is key, and all the veiled appeals to Bush's bigot-base. it's highly possible that Bush AND Cheney don't give a shit about Baptist homophobia, but they play to it, unashamedly.

BTW, anyone notice how NO ONE can scream like a wounded Republican. Rush can trash whomever, gutter tactics abound, and not a word of objection. Bush's campaign manager on the fake NEWS comedy, said, "We're trying to run a positive campaign". Almost broke the guy up.

When the worm turns, and Republican blood is drawn it's lots of squealing like stuck lil piggies.

 

[LadyJeanne]

But when Mary Cheney is mentioned, the Republicans claim that the Democrats are suddenly making a freaking pariah out of her? Why? Because she's lesbian? Because she's lesbian, she's become unmentionable, off-limits? Isn't that the worst possible descrimination--that we cannot talk about her because she is different? As though she's some unspeakable family secret?

I share this view - this is such a controversial issue because many Republicans (and others) believe that having a gay daughter is a cause for shame, embarrassment, and something that should not be mentioned.

This firestorm from the Republicans simply points out how far this country has to go before all Americans are truly accepted for who they are. I'm disappointed that a VP with a gay daughter hasn't made an effort to educate his party, his supporters, and his president that being gay is not something to be ashamed of and discrimated against. I'm disappointed that he hasn't fought to promote the message of equality within his party.

And Kerry was on point - who can imagine that Mary 'chose' her sexual orientation after growing up in a home environment where such a thing is so shameful?

 

[sweetnpetite]

I have no idea why. But is was telling that the party of family values didn't bring the whole family on stage.

The greatest threat to marriage is divorce, however, you don't see a constitutional ammendment to divorce now do you?

Shhhh! don't give them any ideas.

 

[sweetnpetite]

"Our niggers is better off than most anybody's niggers, why, they got washing machines and some of'um even got televisions. I can't understand why they complaining." Strom Thurmond


"

Off topic, but saying 'well, I guess strom thurman wasn't *really* a racist after all, is a bit like saying that a guy who has daughters can't be a sexist.

 

[sweetnpetite]

By your words, you have no concern for Mary Cheney.


Brown vs the Board of Education. I can find a hundred other cases that have protected women...minorities...people with disabilities....you and me.

And if you are so concerned with Mary Cheney, then fight for her rights. Assure her that she will have the same rights as everyone else. Assure her equal protection under the law.

I say the same thing to Kerry, Edwards, Lynn, and Dick...if you are so concerned with Mary, then fight for her rights.

Thank you.

Not that your oppinion matters, as you are a woman...

 

[sweetnpetite]

I am not concerned with Mary Cheney, nor even with the Kerry/Edwards debacle.

What they and the DNC perpetrated was rude, cruel and unconscionable and most everyone alive knows that except this myopic forum.

amicus...

You are being offended for the sake of being offended. There is nothing objrctive or rational about your statements.

YOu don't care about the person but you care about someone being cruel to them? WTF?

Talk about doubleslpeak, maybe *you* should run for president.

 

[amicus]

Round up the usual suspects....chuckles Amicus reading the fuzzy scurrying Liberals as they spray deodorizer on their pathetic candidates.

And the guffaw at the feeble attempt to reverse the faux pas as if the real story were the media response.

Comical.

As far a Kerry's awkward attempt to state that Homosexuality is a 'natural' 'born that way' 'gay gene' phenomena; anyone who has looked into the issue knows that most, not all, but most research says that homosexual behavior is a 'chosen' lifestyle.

In other words, people are NOT born that way. And yes, there are exceptions, usually medically or physically based by a genetic defect purported to be a lack or an excess of a chemical during gestation.

It was a 'cheap and tawdry' attempt to politicize the child of a candidate. Even neutral observers suggested an apology by Kerry and Edwards and then move on.

Ah, but no...no apology not there, not here...and that exemplifies the situational ethics displayed. There is no right and wrong, no responsibility to truth and dignity, just a frantic scurrying about by the guilty parties.

And again, ignore it again, as you no doubt will, the Constitutional question on the definition of marriage is a matter that can not be left to activist judges. It must be dealt with by legislation, which is where laws are made and changed, not in the courts.

Traditionally and conventionally marriage has been defined as being a contract between a man and a woman. If you want to change that law, then go throught the political process of amending the documents that establish those definitions.

Kerry is an admitted Catholic and yet has publicly sworn to 'pack the Supreme Court' to keep Roe v Wade intact.

Bush is a Christian who stated that although some moral issues are not acceptable to his faith, that he acknowledges each persons right to choose their own life style insofar as it does not violate the rights of others.

Incidentally, having watched the Vice Presidential debate...twice, the response by Vice President Cheney to the assault on his daughter by Senator Edwards was one of restraint.

I would not have exercised the control that Mr. Cheney did, I would have bounded out of that chair and slapped the living shit out of that piss ant who dared bring my child into the political arena.

Cheney instead, clinched his jaws and said thank you and looked away.

Something you pussified liberals probably do not understand.

Amicus (who will be absent the weekend)

 

[Edward Teach]

[BI ...I would have bounded out of that chair and slapped the living shit out of that piss ant...[/B]

You keep on and SweetSubSarahh will karate your ass. She blacked a 6'2" pig's eye last week. She'll make you squeal and bleed like that fat boy in Deliverance.


Shit Stirring Eddie Teach