Language Nazis Unite!

[AngelicAssassin]

*and the assassin gracefully turned his king on its side, as the crowd breaks out into an uproar*

*Disregards the preemptory end of game*

Thou shalt not pwn before thy time young Padawan, lest the lava lick thine loins.

 

[Marquis]

Padmé!!!!!!!

 

[Jay Davis]

A case in point...we Americans have been making up our own words for a long, long time. Someone in Congress even attempted making Ebonics a valid language.

Actually, as I recall, the attempt to get Ebonics recognized as a "language" was never taken seriously by legitimate linguists, who consider the urban english dialect being promoted to be just that--a dialect.

What was actually going on was that politicians and activists were trying to get Ebonics recognized by the education system as a language, so that they could get the extra funding that the federal government and state systems provide for ESL (English as a Second Language) education. Basically, they wanted the schools in black neighborhoods to get the same funding as the schools in hispanic neighborhoods. I can't fault their goal, but their method was almost laughable, as Leno, Letterman, and a host of other comedians have demonstrated repeatedly.

Bottom line, suggesting Ebonics is a unique language was a political tactic, not a linguistic assessment.

 

[Marquis]

Actually, as I recall, the attempt to get Ebonics recognized as a "language" was never taken seriously by legitimate linguists, who consider the urban english dialect being promoted to be just that--a dialect.

What was actually going on was that politicians and activists were trying to get Ebonics recognized by the education system as a language, so that they could get the extra funding that the federal government and state systems provide for ESL (English as a Second Language) education. Basically, they wanted the schools in black neighborhoods to get the same funding as the schools in hispanic neighborhoods. I can't fault their goal, but their method was almost laughable, as Leno, Letterman, and a host of other comedians have demonstrated repeatedly.

Bottom line, suggesting Ebonics is a unique language was a political tactic, not a linguistic assessment.

Try teaching kids who speak "ebonics" to read Catcher in the Rye and tell me those schools* shouldn't get extra funding.



*skills, was the word I originally wrote here before I proofread my post. It was such a good Freudian, I almost left it in

 

[Jay Davis]

Try teaching kids who speak "ebonics" to read Catcher in the Rye and tell me those schools* shouldn't get extra funding.



*skills, was the word I originally wrote here before I proofread my post. It was such a good Freudian, I almost left it in

Oh, trust me, nothing but NOTHING makes me madder than the trend over the last 40 years of the US government spending less and less money on children and more and more money on old people and rich people. Our schools need lots more support--and not just financial. My only point on the Ebonics thing is that they shouldn't have to resort to silly political tricks to get it. We need to just f*cking recognize that repairing our education system is the most cost-effective investment we can make in our nation's future.

All that said, and not to deny or minimize the difficulties you refer to, my personal sense is that raising Ebonics to the status of a language would do more harm than good to those kids. Doing so would only accentuate their isolation from the rest of society--language IS culture, and treating ebonics as a separate language only reinforces the damaging perception that we have two deeply divided cultures in this country, the Haves and the Have-nots, the Worthy and the Worthless. We need to be bringing our kids together, regardless of their differences, not providing them with justifications for divisions between them.

 

[Marquis]

Oh, trust me, nothing but NOTHING makes me madder than the trend over the last 40 years of the US government spending less and less money on children and more and more money on old people and rich people. Our schools need lots more support--and not just financial. My only point on the Ebonics thing is that they shouldn't have to resort to silly political tricks to get it. We need to just f*cking recognize that repairing our education system is the most cost-effective investment we can make in our nation's future.

All that said, and not to deny or minimize the difficulties you refer to, my personal sense is that raising Ebonics to the status of a language would do more harm than good to those kids. Doing so would only accentuate their isolation from the rest of society--language IS culture, and treating ebonics as a separate language only reinforces the damaging perception that we have two deeply divided cultures in this country, the Haves and the Have-nots, the Worthy and the Worthless. We need to be bringing our kids together, regardless of their differences, not providing them with justifications for divisions between them.

I hardly think that taking pride in, or at least recognizing African-American culture, their own culture, is damaging to the self esteem of young black kids.

 

[littlegirlslut]

regardless

irregardless


one is a word, one is not???

help...

 

[FungiUg]

irregardless

I can only suspect a combination of regardless and irrespective

Here's the dictionary.com entry:

Irregardless

irregardless

adv : regardless; a combination of irrespective and regardless sometimes used humorously

Of course, the scary implication here is that AA could have potentially been using humour...

 

[nightdancer2876]

What an odd example.

I used it to demonstrate why I have the reputation as a GN. Because that *points to example* is how people write. It's painful.

*laughs* You're the only teacher I know worth asking the question to. Thats why I asked you.


D

 

[Alt]

I cannot take the mistakes made with their, there and they're.

 

[Xelebes]

By the way...there is sole and soul.

Sole is the bottom of your shoe.

Soul is the guy who played Hutch in Starsky and Hutch.

Sole is also a fish.

Seoul is a city in South Korea.

Sol is Latin for Sun.

 

[bridgeburner]

And sole is single.


-B

 

[Xelebes]

How about the utter destruction of the English language as perpetrated by "L33t"? For example: Hy U. Jst 1 mre day til I C U" It's painful.

On another site, I have the Grammar Nazi reputation, and it's no wonder I do. This is an actual line taken from a post: "When the pain is serring and you feel like your head will exsplowd and you just whant to screen yell and unlowd do what you must to make you feel fit but plz I begging you dont you qwit"

Is it too much to ask for spell check? One does not have to be able to spell, one just has to be able to copy and paste into Word, Works, etc and right click.

My pet peeves, other than sloppiness are the ones that have been mentioned. Thier/there, dominant/dominate, and so on. Marquis, you are a teacher, whats up with the educational system? Or is that why you are leaving it to pursue law??

Dancer

Actually, breaking down the language into l33tsp3ak (heh) actually helps to break down the grammatical and spelling barriers over the internet. While unacceptable in online articles, essays and other published works, the writing out of all the ins and outs of grammar and spelling can be quite tedious to write down. Breaking the language down into something that a keyboard is more capable of compressing (think of cursive and shorthand here). A messageboard is not official but writing properly does commend respect from other members of the board as it does say that the poster has thought out the post has made. Chatrooms do not offer the beenfit of time and refering as a forum does. It's first come, first serve.

 

[Xelebes]

And sole is single.


-B

True enough.

Should we include Saul into this too?

 

[Marquis]

Soal and seul are also words, depending on who you ask.

 

[Netzach]

Actually, breaking down the language into l33tsp3ak (heh) actually helps to break down the grammatical and spelling barriers over the internet. While unacceptable in online articles, essays and other published works, the writing out of all the ins and outs of grammar and spelling can be quite tedious to write down. Breaking the language down into something that a keyboard is more capable of compressing (think of cursive and shorthand here). A messageboard is not official but writing properly does commend respect from other members of the board as it does say that the poster has thought out the post has made. Chatrooms do not offer the beenfit of time and refering as a forum does. It's first come, first serve.

Personally I have nothing but awe and admiration for the 22 year olds I worked with who could actually communicate via text messages, efficiently.

 

[brioche]

I only scanned the first eleven pages, but it seems that everyone forgot it's/its.

it's - it is
its - possessive - its bed, etc.

I also hate it when I get into a story and reach the "word" mid-drift when they mean midriff. It happens a lot - I can only assume most spell checkers don't have the word midriff and interpret it as something in the middle of the ocean.

In addition, a lot of Canadians hate the fact that Americans now use real instead of really. I don't know if it has been accepted into dictionaries yet, but it pisses me off either way.

I personally feel sure and certain shouldn't be used interchangeably, but they are.

Incidentally, when my brother used "wether" instead of "whether" his English teacher told him, "There are sheep all over your page!"
This was apparently a favourite comment of hers, but my brother ruined it by looking at her and replying,

"And what are these sheep saying to you?"

Edited to add: I also really hate it that Microsoft Word only allows you to add one space after each sentence or comma. I was taught to add two, and WordPerfect allows it. When I went to "Teacher's College" (which is not a college anymore, and should be referred to as a Faculty of Education), I had to switch over to Word and relearn how to type to avoid all those annoying "extra space" blurbs in Spell Check. Now, I am trying to go back to the double space, but it's harder than it sounds.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Incidentally, when my brother used "wether" instead of "whether" his English teacher told him, "There are sheep all over your page!"
This was apparently a favourite comment of hers, but my brother ruined it by looking at her and replying,

"And what are these sheep saying to you?"

I think most of us here would like your brother.

Edited to add: I also really hate it that Microsoft Word only allows you to add one space after each sentence or comma. I was taught to add two, and WordPerfect allows it. When I went to "Teacher's College" (which is not a college anymore, and should be referred to as a Faculty of Education), I had to switch over to Word and relearn how to type to avoid all those annoying "extra space" blurbs in Spell Check. Now, I am trying to go back to the double space, but it's harder than it sounds.

Just a matter of history on this issue: The two-space "requirement" in typing after a sentence-ending period was created in the early days of typewriting by the courts - for clarity in transcripts of hearings and proceedings - and the newspapers - to make clear to typesetters that while the end of a sentence could be the end of a line, an abbreviation could not (e.g., "Mr. Smith" was not to have "Mr." end one line and "Smith" begin the next). Since a large percentage of typing was done either for print media or the legal system (and for business, in which a high percentage of typed material may end up in the legal system), the typing schools and books instituted a policy of requiring two spaces at the end of a sentence.

Curiously, most courts and legal documents continue to require two spaces after the sentence-ending period (and a non-proportional font, such as Courier or Courier New), while the printed media have, due to the widespread use of proportional type, eliminated the second space, as it can create awkward spacing in their narrow columns.

Note: The above comments reflect only the US version of typewriting history. I'm not sure if any or all of the above applies to other countries/cultures.

 

[Jay Davis]

Edited to add: I also really hate it that Microsoft Word only allows you to add one space after each sentence or comma. I was taught to add two, and WordPerfect allows it. When I went to "Teacher's College" (which is not a college anymore, and should be referred to as a Faculty of Education), I had to switch over to Word and relearn how to type to avoid all those annoying "extra space" blurbs in Spell Check. Now, I am trying to go back to the double space, but it's harder than it sounds.

In Word, somewhere under Tools or Preferences or something, you can set your own version of Word to NOT flag those double-spaces. I'm not sure where exactly, but if you fish around, you will probably find it.

On the other hand, the double-space-after-a-period convention is not a quirk of Word--it's standard usage in the late-20th/early 21st century. If you were to have anything published these days, your editor would have to Search and Replace every period-space-space with a period-space, to comply with the style of virtually every publishing house and newspaper these days. As Sir Winston points out, the double-space convention was developed in the days of manual typewriters and non-proportional fonts. At this point, it's as out-dated as spacing five times to make an indention at the beginning of a paragraph.

Teacher's College forced you to type in the present day. Why re-condition yourself to type the 19th century way?

 

[Jay Davis]

I hardly think that taking pride in, or at least recognizing African-American culture, their own culture, is damaging to the self esteem of young black kids.

I never said anything that should suggest that black kids shouldn't take pride in their culture and history. Black Americans have made tremendous contributions to the entire world, not just the United States, in areas ranging from the arts to politics. I'm not going to sit here and rattle off a laundry list of the swell stuff that blacks have accomplished, because to do so would necessarily miss a hundred more accomplishments than I have time, space, or experience to list.

But to equate the invention of jazz music or the civil rights movement with broken english is foolish and counter-productive. No one is suggesting promoting words like "ain't" and "your'n" and "y'all" to the status of a separate language called Crackerese, simply because Will Rogers and Chuck Yaeger were rednecks.

Poor command of the english language blocks success of people of all races and ethnicities in this country. Ebonics and "Crackerese" have very little to do with race, and almost everything to do with class. When was the last time you heard Oprah or Colin Powell "axe" someone a question? Is Bill Cosby's self-esteem damaged when he "asks" a question, instead? Is Tiger Woods any less black because he speaks American-standard english clearly and correctly?

Believe me when I tell you, I want every child in this country to have the same opportunity to succeed, regardless of which continent his ancestors were from, or what neighborhood he grew up in. But validating and encouraging uneducated, illiterate dialects--be they white, black, or chartreuse--is NOT the way to accomplish this.

There is a moment in the film "When We Were Kings" which is really significant. "When We Were Kings" is the documentary about the Ali-Foreman heavyweight championship, which took place in Africa. Ali is on a plane, and he discovers that not only are the pilot AND the co-pilot black, but they speak FIVE languages each. He's amazed, and encouraged, and says something to the effect that American blacks can only speak one language, and they don't speak it well. (Mind you, this is Muhammed Ali speaking, NOT me!) One of the most important themes of that movie is the evolution of Ali's conviction that one of the keys to black advancement is taking genuine pride in things done well, rather than taking passive-aggressive pride in things done badly as a form of self-destructive resistance.

 

[brioche]

In Word, somewhere under Tools or Preferences or something, you can set your own version of Word to NOT flag those double-spaces. I'm not sure where exactly, but if you fish around, you will probably find it.

On the other hand, the double-space-after-a-period convention is not a quirk of Word--it's standard usage in the late-20th/early 21st century. If you were to have anything published these days, your editor would have to Search and Replace every period-space-space with a period-space, to comply with the style of virtually every publishing house and newspaper these days. As Sir Winston points out, the double-space convention was developed in the days of manual typewriters and non-proportional fonts. At this point, it's as out-dated as spacing five times to make an indention at the beginning of a paragraph.

Teacher's College forced you to type in the present day. Why re-condition yourself
to type the 19th century way?

Point taken.
Yours too, Sir Winston, but you can only quote once, as far as I know...

So does that mean you'd rather have my brother here? I swear, I'm witty and acerbic too! I just suppress it here, only to unleash it in other places...

But then, I like my brother too.

 

[FungiUg]

I also really hate it that Microsoft Word only allows you to add one space after each sentence or comma. I was taught to add two, and WordPerfect allows it. When I went to "Teacher's College" (which is not a college anymore, and should be referred to as a Faculty of Education), I had to switch over to Word and relearn how to type to avoid all those annoying "extra space" blurbs in Spell Check. Now, I am trying to go back to the double space, but it's harder than it sounds.

This is the difference between a typewriter and typography with real fonts. Anyone who has been taught typing is likely to use two spaces after a full-stop. However, most proportional typefaces (fonts) are designed to provide the correct amount of space after a full stop, without needing more than the one space. Unless you are using a fixed-spacing typeface, the single space after a full-stop is correct.

As it happens, Word can be set to either correct for one or two spaces, ensuring that whatever your preference, your are consistent. (Tools, Options, Spelling & Grammar, Settings, Spaces required between sentences.) Word also does some automatic tricks in replacing some letter pairs with "ligatures" (for example, "fl" and "fi" have specific designs for the combination of the two letters so that they look better) and to use kerning (adjusting the space between letters depending on the combination -- for example, C O would be closer together.) So as word processors go, it does a lot more typography work than WordPerfect has ever done.

Of course, if you want real typography, you need to drop into a real package such as the Adobe products or Quark or the like. But don't knock Word: it does 95% of the work automatically.

 

[jasonlf]

This is the difference between a typewriter and typography with real fonts. Anyone who has been taught typing is likely to use two spaces after a full-stop. However, most proportional typefaces (fonts) are designed to provide the correct amount of space after a full stop, without needing more than the one space. Unless you are using a fixed-spacing typeface, the single space after a full-stop is correct.

As it happens, Word can be set to either correct for one or two spaces, ensuring that whatever your preference, your are consistent. (Tools, Options, Spelling & Grammar, Settings, Spaces required between sentences.) Word also does some automatic tricks in replacing some letter pairs with "ligatures" (for example, "fl" and "fi" have specific designs for the combination of the two letters so that they look better) and to use kerning (adjusting the space between letters depending on the combination -- for example, C O would be closer together.) So as word processors go, it does a lot more typography work than WordPerfect has ever done.

Of course, if you want real typography, you need to drop into a real package such as the Adobe products or Quark or the like. But don't knock Word: it does 95% of the work automatically.

My editor at the newspaper would grr at double spaces after a period. He said it wasted space .

 

[Sir_Winston54]

[/snip]Yours too, Sir Winston, but you can only quote once, as far as I know...[/snip]

You can quote as many times as you want, if ya know how. (See this post.)

So does that mean you'd rather have my brother here? I swear, I'm witty and acerbic too! I just suppress it here, only to unleash it in other places...

Don't know your brother, but we do know you, and are happy to have you here. I wonder why you feel a need to suppress your wit and acerbity here, though.

But then, I like my brother too.

I'm sure he's thrilled.

 

[Marquis]

I never said anything that should suggest that black kids shouldn't take pride in their culture and history. Black Americans have made tremendous contributions to the entire world, not just the United States, in areas ranging from the arts to politics. I'm not going to sit here and rattle off a laundry list of the swell stuff that blacks have accomplished, because to do so would necessarily miss a hundred more accomplishments than I have time, space, or experience to list.

But to equate the invention of jazz music or the civil rights movement with broken english is foolish and counter-productive. No one is suggesting promoting words like "ain't" and "your'n" and "y'all" to the status of a separate language called Crackerese, simply because Will Rogers and Chuck Yaeger were rednecks.

Poor command of the english language blocks success of people of all races and ethnicities in this country. Ebonics and "Crackerese" have very little to do with race, and almost everything to do with class. When was the last time you heard Oprah or Colin Powell "axe" someone a question? Is Bill Cosby's self-esteem damaged when he "asks" a question, instead? Is Tiger Woods any less black because he speaks American-standard english clearly and correctly?

Believe me when I tell you, I want every child in this country to have the same opportunity to succeed, regardless of which continent his ancestors were from, or what neighborhood he grew up in. But validating and encouraging uneducated, illiterate dialects--be they white, black, or chartreuse--is NOT the way to accomplish this.

There is a moment in the film "When We Were Kings" which is really significant. "When We Were Kings" is the documentary about the Ali-Foreman heavyweight championship, which took place in Africa. Ali is on a plane, and he discovers that not only are the pilot AND the co-pilot black, but they speak FIVE languages each. He's amazed, and encouraged, and says something to the effect that American blacks can only speak one language, and they don't speak it well. (Mind you, this is Muhammed Ali speaking, NOT me!) One of the most important themes of that movie is the evolution of Ali's conviction that one of the keys to black advancement is taking genuine pride in things done well, rather than taking passive-aggressive pride in things done badly as a form of self-destructive resistance.

There is some truth in what you're saying, but you're missing a huge portion of the picture. Black Americans ARE a different culture in this country, and faulting them for not holding a better position in society is hypocracy at its best.

I'm not saying that black people shouldn't be taught the language used in business and formal communications in this country, but there isn't anything wrong with having their own dialect recognized as well. What Haitian Créole is to French and Jamaican Patois is to The Queen's English, Ebonics (or whatever you care to call it) is to the American Language, a dialect in and of itself.

From a very young age, black people in this country are socialized to believe that what they know and do, who they are is essentially wrong, like some big accident. The truth is, white culture is the majority in this land and in order to be succesful by the white man's standards you've got to play along and be a good house nigger.

We got Pepsi firing Ludacris as a spokesman for being too profane, to hire Ozzie Osbourne instead? Are you kidding me?