Listen Up! a.k.a. Is there something I'm missing?

[sexycaz22]

I love reading about other relationships, especially these like Catalina or Evil_Geoff. I have high respect for them, and while I truly don't know if I could handle being in these relationships, I know from their posts, if you read behind the lines, I could see how much love there is in their relationships with their SOs.

Personally, for me, I am very very new to the BDSM, and I am still struggling and learning where on the BDSM spectrum I belong to.

Awhile I am in a casual relationship with my partner, where he spanks me, I feel there is something missing from the relationship, as it is more a spanking relationship for both of us, but I LOVE it and is learning how to handle the tawses, tennis bats etc....(I love table tennis paddles!)

Re: something missing, I don't know what it is, and I guess I will have to explore other things and with different Doms and seeing what is missing from my life.

Recently, I began to have fantasises where I would be a Switch, where I would be a Domme outside the bedroom, and getting my male submissive kneeling in front of me, and me giving him tasks / chores etc and in the bedroom, he would be a Dom and taking control sexually.

Again, like I say, I am still learning and where I am on the BDSM spectrum, I don't know yet, but I am enjoying exploring!

Each relationship is unique to individuals and what works for them is for them ONLY.

 

[intothewoods]

LOL, well I live a 'no limits' relationship and I'm afraid (and a little embarrassed to admit at times) I often do not appear enthusiastically consenting. The fantasy and ideal is that one can and will obey blindly with nothing but their Owner's pleasure and happiness in mind. I don't know about everyone else, but there are days when that is far from my thought waves and it is not so easy to just go there when ordered for any variety of reasons. Yes, I know, it is not how the stories and fantasies portray it, but it is reality unless you have an Owner who only asks of you those things you like and/or find a breeze and that is not what I entered this lifestyle to have...I need to be challenged even when I am kicking and screaming or trying to talk him out of his ideas...it keeps me alive.

Catalina

Just as an aside, the key here is that you are self-aware.

 

[Shankara20]

Just as an aside, the key here is that you are self-aware.

Just as an aside to your aside - self-awareness is the key to it all...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Just as an aside, the key here is that you are self-aware.

That is why I caution those who seem to be jumping into a similar situation with rose coloured glasses on, and/or those who are very young and have not even begun to find who they are as an adult. Often it is taken the wrong way, but knowing how difficult it is, I feel the risk to be disliked in the interests of helping them think carefully is worth it.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

I fully understand that every relationship is different, and everyone has a right to be in the kind of relationship that they choose to be in.

I could not be in a M/s relationship. I will admit that after reading some posts from some people I don't understand how they could be in the relationship that they are. It does sound abusive to me. I also have seen enough relationships where the woman puts up with the abuse because of financial reasons, or embarrassment, or fear of being on their own.

I ask with all seriousness--how do we tell the difference? WHen I see a post like that I just keep quiet and tell myself--she (or he) is happy it is what they want, it's their life. But for those of you who have been on this board forever or been out in the BDSM community how do you tell the difference between a strict M/s relationship and abuse? ANd if you suspet abuse what do you do about it?

Please, I don't mean to offend anyone. I just would hate to see someone really get harmed or be in a true abusive relationship and I ignore their veiled cries for help because I was trying to respect their relationship choice.

These are excellent questions, and well worth asking.

The ideal, of course, is: rational, fully informed, consenting adults engaged in a mutually satisfying relationship. Unfortunately, reality is often far from ideal - and that is true for all types and flavors of relationships, including kinky ones.

Some people define BDSM in terms of the ideal, but I do not.

My answer to your question about how to identify abuse is to say that I consider abuse to be defined by the impact on the one being abused.

If both parties in a relationship are thriving overall, productive at school or work, engaged and responsible in interacting with family and friends, etc., then regardless of how extreme the details of the intimate relationship may seem, it will be difficult for me to consider it to be abusive.

In contrast, if one party is suffering material and sustained physical or psychological harm as a result of the intimate relationship, then abuse, as I would define it, is taking place. This is true regardless of whether or not consent was given, and may occur even with activities that are relatively moderate or even mild on the scale of relative kink.

What to do about abuse can be a very sticky question. It is difficult to give a meaningful response without specifics or at least a more focused context.

 

[ecstaticsub]

These are excellent questions, and well worth asking.

The ideal, of course, is: rational, fully informed, consenting adults engaged in a mutually satisfying relationship. Unfortunately, reality is often far from ideal - and that is true for all types and flavors of relationships, including kinky ones.

Some people define BDSM in terms of the ideal, but I do not.

My answer to your question about how to identify abuse is to say that I consider abuse to be defined by the impact on the one being abused.

If both parties in a relationship are thriving overall, productive at school or work, engaged and responsible in interacting with family and friends, etc., then regardless of how extreme the details of the intimate relationship may seem, it will be difficult for me to consider it to be abusive.

In contrast, if one party is suffering material and sustained physical or psychological harm as a result of the intimate relationship, then abuse, as I would define it, is taking place. This is true regardless of whether or not consent was given, and may occur even with activities that are relatively moderate or even mild on the scale of relative kink.

What to do about abuse can be a very sticky question. It is difficult to give a meaningful response without specifics or at least a more focused context.

Thank you so much for responding to my questions. It is greatly appreciated.

I am fighting my own internal struggles with this. Though I know BDSM relationships are for the most part not abusive, I am in one that is not abusive.....I can't get away from the thought in my head that I would not want my daughter or son to be a submissive. At least not until they were 40 lol (the age I was when I first met my Dom). From this mom's point of view it would be almost impossible to see it as anything but abusive. Even though I know better.

I do also recognize that my husband worries about my safety and though he tries to understand he still sees it as an abusive relationship. My sister worries about me also.

Thanks again for yor response, It will help me with conversation with both my husband and sister and my own internal struggles.

 

[Homburg]

I love reading about other relationships, especially these like Catalina or Evil_Geoff.

Catalina has almost single-handed changed how I perceive that particular area of the BDSM spectrum, so I understand what you mean.

No other serious comments here. What works for me and mine won't necessarily work for others. I don' tmind commenting on specific situations, but general stuff? *shrug* Dunno. Seems like there's an unfrotunate number of jerks that enjoy the leeway that their partners' submissive personalities give them in a relationship, and take advantage of that fact. That line is just as accurate to describe vanilla relationships though, so it isn't a comment on BDSM. It's just human nature. =(

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina has almost single-handed changed how I perceive that particular area of the BDSM spectrum, so I understand what you mean.

Ooops, I hope in a good way.

Catalina

 

[Homburg]

Ooops, I hope in a good way.

Catalina

Yes, quite so. It's not for me, at least not at this point, but it is eye-opening to see you share a glimpse into your life and F's. It basically presents things that exceed what I do, but describes them in such a way as to allow me to understand both the what's and why's, and to see it not as some insane practice, but just people that are a few steps further along the same path that I tread.

I read your posts with great interest, and have learned a good bit, both about what you do and about my own perceptions/interests.

I'd actually planned to send a "Thank you" PM at some point, but I guess this post is essentially doing the same thing. - Thank you for sharing these glimpses into your life and practices.

*bows*

 

[A Desert Rose]

Catalina has almost single-handed changed how I perceive that particular area of the BDSM spectrum, so I understand what you mean.

No other serious comments here. What works for me and mine won't necessarily work for others. I don' tmind commenting on specific situations, but general stuff? *shrug* Dunno. Seems like there's an unfrotunate number of jerks that enjoy the leeway that their partners' submissive personalities give them in a relationship, and take advantage of that fact. That line is just as accurate to describe vanilla relationships though, so it isn't a comment on BDSM. It's just human nature. =(

This, I think is so true. There's no corner on the market for abuse and abusive relationships. I've seen just as much if not more of it in traditional relationships.

And what constitutes abuse? Who decides what abuse is or isn't? For instance, I've seen lots of posters here, who claim to be submnissive, say that humiliation is a no-go for them because they find it abusive. On the other hand, others (like myself) relish the humiliation factor in a relationship. Am I being abused? No. Do I want to be abused? Maybe, to a degree, I do. I don't know. I don't care. I like what I'm doing and what's being done to me. I like how it feels.

I don't feel the need to explain to anyone how I conduct the intimate areas of my life. That's not anyone else's business. And it's because I don't feel abused. One person's definition of abuse is another's fruit salad.

If I were feeling truly abused by someone, I'm pretty sure I'd be asking for help, in some fashion.

As I said before, there are as many different ways to interact in a relationship as there are people on the planet. Making broad generalizations doesn't work. Without the details of a specific situation, as John said "It is difficult to give a meaningful response without specifics or at least a more focused context."

 

[Homburg]

And what constitutes abuse? Who decides what abuse is or isn't?

I think this is the core issue.

The blindfolded rope bondage that I did recently with "v" might be seen as abuse by some, but art by others, and the line would become more blurry were I to relate what I did to her after those photos.

*shrug* I don't own the definition for anything outside the reach of my arm.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I think this is the core issue.

The blindfolded rope bondage that I did recently with "v" might be seen as abuse by some, but art by others, and the line would become more blurry were I to relate what I did to her after those photos.

*shrug* I don't own the definition for anything outside the reach of my arm.

And to me that's even more of a core issue. What you define as okay in your life, or I define as is okay in mine, is really the only issue involved.

This particular topic has been discussed numerous times here and WD, I think made a real good point one time about it. To paraphrase him (or whoever said it)... If you step into a "scene" that appears abusive to you and the submissive beats the shit out of you, you know it's not abuse.

 

[sexycaz22]

Yes, quite so. It's not for me, at least not at this point, but it is eye-opening to see you share a glimpse into your life and F's. It basically presents things that exceed what I do, but describes them in such a way as to allow me to understand both the what's and why's, and to see it not as some insane practice, but just people that are a few steps further along the same path that I tread.

I read your posts with great interest, and have learned a good bit, both about what you do and about my own perceptions/interests.

I'd actually planned to send a "Thank you" PM at some point, but I guess this post is essentially doing the same thing. - Thank you for sharing these glimpses into your life and practices.

*bows*

I just wanted to get in here and thank you to Catalina, too. Whenever you make posts, I always read with interest and with respect, even if I don't always agree with them.

In fact, I want to go one step further and thank you, Catalina, for that you gave me a good piece of advice, when I first started out in the BDSM, and in one of my threads, I asked about meeting Doms either online or in real life, and you have made me think twice about rushing into things and I am now glad that I listened to your advice, so I thank you for that!

 

[intothewoods]

If I were feeling truly abused by someone, I'm pretty sure I'd be asking for help, in some fashion.

As I said before, there are as many different ways to interact in a relationship as there are people on the planet. Making broad generalizations doesn't work. Without the details of a specific situation, as John said "It is difficult to give a meaningful response without specifics or at least a more focused context."

Right, but not everyone in an abusive relationship can ask for help. By the same token, it's not anyone's right or responsibility to be the self-appointed abuse czar. Sure, broad generalizations don't work. But I do think some of us get something out of thinking about what is and isn't abuse. I don't think we should automatically shy away from the topic for fear of being a little bit "judgmental."

 

[A Desert Rose]

Right, but not everyone in an abusive relationship can ask for help. By the same token, it's not anyone's right or responsibility to be the self-appointed abuse czar. Sure, broad generalizations don't work. But I do think some of us get something out of thinking about what is and isn't abuse. I don't think we should automatically shy away from the topic for fear of being a little bit "judgmental."

Did I wrong you in a previous life?
Did I say any of that anywhere?
Did I say other people should shy away from discussing this topic or anyother?

Do I still have a right to MY opinions here?

 

[A Desert Rose]

Right, but not everyone in an abusive relationship can ask for help. By the same token, it's not anyone's right or responsibility to be the self-appointed abuse czar. Sure, broad generalizations don't work. But I do think some of us get something out of thinking about what is and isn't abuse. I don't think we should automatically shy away from the topic for fear of being a little bit "judgmental."

You know, you're absolutely right and I apologize for taking this personally.

I think you were right on the mark. And I'm not.

 

[intothewoods]

Did I wrong you in a previous life?
Did I say any of that anywhere?
Did I say other people should shy away from discussing this topic or anyother?

Do I still have a right to MY opinions here?

Uh...color me confused! I didn't mean to piss you off. I'm sorry.

Maybe I misunderstood your tone, and cat's as well from earlier posts, but my impression was that the OP said, there is some freaky shit in this lifestyle, stuff that looks like abuse, and you and cat seemed to both be saying, well, I'm not in an abusive situation, don't judge me. And I guess my thought was, well, sure, you two are okay, but how does that detract from the OP's point?

I guess that's why I kept coming back to you, and cat. No offense intended, and I apologize if I came off like I was attacking you. That wasn't my intention.

 

[intothewoods]

You know, you're absolutely right and I apologize for taking this personally.

I think you were right on the mark. And I'm not.

Well, now I'm completely lost. Cupcake?

 

[A Desert Rose]

Uh...color me confused! I didn't mean to piss you off. I'm sorry.

Maybe I misunderstood your tone, and cat's as well from earlier posts, but my impression was that the OP said, there is some freaky shit in this lifestyle, stuff that looks like abuse, and you and cat seemed to both be saying, well, I'm not in an abusive situation, don't judge me. And I guess my thought was, well, sure, you two are okay, but how does that detract from the OP's point?

I guess that's why I kept coming back to you, and cat. No offense intended, and I apologize if I came off like I was attacking you. That wasn't my intention.

me too. I misread your tone, as well. and as you see above, I too, apologized for that.

I see your point. in the previous post. And see that you're point was well made.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Well, now I'm completely lost. Cupcake?

Yea... one of those chocolate Hostess ones with the cream inside? Let's share that LOL

 

[DeservingBitch]

LOL, well I live a 'no limits' relationship and I'm afraid (and a little embarrassed to admit at times) I often do not appear enthusiastically consenting. The fantasy and ideal is that one can and will obey blindly with nothing but their Owner's pleasure and happiness in mind. I don't know about everyone else, but there are days when that is far from my thought waves and it is not so easy to just go there when ordered for any variety of reasons. Yes, I know, it is not how the stories and fantasies portray it, but it is reality unless you have an Owner who only asks of you those things you like and/or find a breeze and that is not what I entered this lifestyle to have...I need to be challenged even when I am kicking and screaming or trying to talk him out of his ideas...it keeps me alive.

Catalina

That's interesting Catalina. When writing and thinking about this post, I had actually you and your relationship with your PYL in mind as what appear to me as a healthy, 'enthusiastically consented to' relationship.

Yes, you've highlighted many times how your relationship is not fantasyland and that your submission is a lot of hard work. But it is also very clear from your post that this relationship is what you want/need and that you are a very active participant in sustaining its dynamic.

 

[intothewoods]

Yea... one of those chocolate Hostess ones with the cream inside? Let's share that LOL

sounds like a plan.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Uh...color me confused! I didn't mean to piss you off. I'm sorry.

Maybe I misunderstood your tone, and cat's as well from earlier posts, but my impression was that the OP said, there is some freaky shit in this lifestyle, stuff that looks like abuse, and you and cat seemed to both be saying, well, I'm not in an abusive situation, don't judge me. And I guess my thought was, well, sure, you two are okay, but how does that detract from the OP's point?

I guess that's why I kept coming back to you, and cat. No offense intended, and I apologize if I came off like I was attacking you. That wasn't my intention.

If that's the way I come off, then I apologize to you and anyone else who reads me that way. That is not at all what I intend to be saying. But I think that sometimes we (cat, me, et al concerned) might come across as though we are being a bit defensive. I don't think it's intentional. I don't think we miean to do that.

But as I said before, there are lots of people who don't understand that certain desires they might find abhorrant or abusive, are not to me or Catalina or someone else. I will never be able to be a slave, like Catalina is. It's not something that I can ever see myself doing. But I've learned a great deal from what and how she lives her life. She is very happy in her station. I am very happy in mine, as a submissive.

What I'm trying to say is that the line between what constitutes abuse to one person and what is desireous to another is kinda blurry.

That's all I was really trying to say. And I hope that I said it better this time. ;-)

So, what do you do if you truly in your heart believe that someone is being abused and won't ask for help or won't acknowledge that they need help? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe someone else does.

It's always an interesting discussion, though. ;-)

 

[sexycaz22]

*nods* I agree, Rose. It is an interesting discussion, and an interesting read.

Thank you to all who have shared a little about their relationships and given their thoughts, I found them really interesting!

(by the way, I know I am not the OP, but I just wanted to say thank you, also!)

 

[catalina_francisco]

Yes, quite so. It's not for me, at least not at this point, but it is eye-opening to see you share a glimpse into your life and F's. It basically presents things that exceed what I do, but describes them in such a way as to allow me to understand both the what's and why's, and to see it not as some insane practice, but just people that are a few steps further along the same path that I tread.

I read your posts with great interest, and have learned a good bit, both about what you do and about my own perceptions/interests.

I'd actually planned to send a "Thank you" PM at some point, but I guess this post is essentially doing the same thing. - Thank you for sharing these glimpses into your life and practices.

*bows*

Thanks. We have our ups and downs, and I often complain we are not practicing D/s anymore only to have it pointed out (when his patience wears thin), just how much we do practice it but because it has become so much a part of our life I sometimes forget it isn't how others live...then if I am lucky he turns the heat up for a bit. Still we do both work to make it right for both of us and I can understand it not being for everyone.

Catalina