Literotica censorship

[andibob69]

Thank you for correcting my grammar, sir.

 

[SimonDoom]

Thank you for correcting my grammar, sir.

No problem.

I'm a former English teacher. I make grammar, punctuation, and spelling mistakes all the time. I appreciate every single time that someone tells me I got it wrong. I don't take it personally and I don't get insulted. Every time someone points out my mistake it makes it less likely the mistake will happen again.

 

[Voboy]

I was trying to help you, OP, but I’m not sure I’m interested in doing that anymore. You’re very disagreeable, whether or not you realize it.

Read my previous post. It worked for me in the same situation. If you’d rather spurn my help, well, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[SimonDoom]

My point is that everyone blamed me for not following a process I did not know existed, and one that is not readily apparent. The other assumption is that I did not try to remedy the issue before venting. I appreciate the advice, but I don’t appreciate the suggestion that I should have done something I had no idea was a thing.

Also, if one looks at my initial post, I wasn’t even being an asshole about it. I stated the situation is I knew it to be, and even said I can’t really say they are violating my free speech rights.

Why don't we reset this? Nobody is accusing you of being an A-hole. I'm not. You were frustrated. You and every other Literotica author, at one point or another. We've all experienced situations where we squinted at stuff that we saw and said, "Huh?" I have. Just be patient and ask questions and search the forums for answers. It's like what Mulder said in the X Files: The truth is out there. It's not always obvious, and it may take some searching to find it, but it's there.

 

[oggbashan]

It's here in the stickys at the top of the AH:

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/simple-answer-to-queries-about-lits-under-18-rule.1545753/

 

[Handley_Page]

My point is that everyone blamed me for not following a process I did not know existed, and one that is not readily apparent. The other assumption is that I did not try to remedy the issue before venting. I appreciate the advice, but I don’t appreciate the suggestion that I should have done something I had no idea was a thing.

Also, if one looks at my initial post, I wasn’t even being an asshole about it. I stated the situation is I knew it to be, and even said I can’t really say they are violating my free speech rights.

You might care to check on the 'stickys'; there's one in particular on the subject of youthful
doings .

 

[LdyHoneybee]

First, i will say that this ”authors’ hangout” forum is actually my favorite thing about this site. That’s right. The regular posters here are almost universally helpful and encouraging. I have been so impressed with the courteous, honest, and helpful answers I have been given here.

Second, i have only been here for a very short time. I still have many questions, but I think I get this under age 18 rule, and I bet you all do too. But maybe it would help if somebody said it.

This site is, presumably, headquartered in the US, right? In the US, the age of majority is 18, and the authorities have no patience with violations. An 18 year old who has sex with a 17 year old can really be convicted of statutory rape if anyone decides to take it there. Considering the content that is published here, if the site were perceived by those authorities as consistently allowing erotica involving underage participants, the site could be closed down and the owners prosecuted, fined and/or sent to jail. Same for bestiality because animal abuse is, in many states, a felony here in the US. Same with hardcore NC and anything else that might be actually viewed as illegal activity.

I don’t know Laurel, but I suspect that she and whoever she works with are trying to guess what the authorities might view as illegal and err on the side of caution to protect the site and themselves. I am betting that is also the reason that selections can be removed based on complaints. If enough people on a site like this say it is underage porn, it at the least can end up as a court case, and I am sure that one person’s hurt feelings or outrage just does not matter in that larger picture. I don’t think she/they are arbitrary or self centered; I think they are trying to guess at legal limits. .

Just tryin’ to save somebody anguish.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Second, i have only been here for a very short time. I still have many questions, but I think I get this under age 18 rule, and I bet you all do too. But maybe it would help if somebody said it.

This site is, presumably, headquartered in the US, right? In the US, the age of majority is 18, and the authorities have no patience with violations. An 18 year old who has sex with a 17 year old can really be convicted of statutory rape if anyone decides to take it there.

You're confusing a couple of different things here.

"Age of majority" is not the same thing as "age of sexual consent", and neither of them are uniformly 18 across the USA. For instance, in Mississippi the age of majority is 21 but the age of sexual consent is 16. In addition, many states have "close-in-age exceptions", so an 18-17 relationship might not be treated the same way as 25-17.

Considering the content that is published here, if the site were perceived by those authorities as consistently allowing erotica involving underage participants, the site could be closed down and the owners prosecuted, fined and/or sent to jail. Same for bestiality because animal abuse is, in many states, a felony here in the US. Same with hardcore NC and anything else that might be actually viewed as illegal activity.

These things are illegal to do but that doesn't make it illegal to write about them. Murdering people is illegal but it's perfectly legal to write crime thrillers.

There are some laws specifically for film/photo porn which require actors/models to be over 18, but those laws aren't relevant to text fiction.

By default, fiction is covered by First Amendment protections. The exception is where that fiction is judged to be "obscene". There have been a couple of recent cases where erotic story sites were busted for obscenity, but both of those were niche sites involving extreme content e.g. rape of five-year-olds. There's no legal precedent to suggest that writing about sex with minors is automatically illegal, and plenty of mainstream published books contain under-age sex e.g. Nabokov's "Lolita", King's "IT", Bradley's "The Mists of Avalon", and Piers Anthony's "Firefly".

I do need to caveat this with the observation that the US courts are currently more than usually willing to overturn precedent, and there's an obscenity case currently in Virginia courts that bears watching. So things could change. But as it stands, the law doesn't ban fiction about 17-year-olds having sex - and if it did change, there's no guarantee that an 18+ restriction would be enough to protect Literotica.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

You're confusing a couple of different things here.

"Age of majority" is not the same thing as "age of sexual consent", and neither of them are uniformly 18 across the USA. For instance, in Mississippi the age of majority is 21 but the age of sexual consent is 16. In addition, many states have "close-in-age exceptions", so an 18-17 relationship might not be treated the same way as 25-17.



These things are illegal to do but that doesn't make it illegal to write about them. Murdering people is illegal but it's perfectly legal to write crime thrillers.

There are some laws specifically for film/photo porn which require actors/models to be over 18, but those laws aren't relevant to text fiction.

By default, fiction is covered by First Amendment protections. The exception is where that fiction is judged to be "obscene". There have been a couple of recent cases where erotic story sites were busted for obscenity, but both of those were niche sites involving extreme content e.g. rape of five-year-olds. There's no legal precedent to suggest that writing about sex with minors is automatically illegal, and plenty of mainstream published books contain under-age sex e.g. Nabokov's "Lolita", King's "IT", Bradley's "The Mists of Avalon", and Piers Anthony's "Firefly".

I do need to caveat this with the observation that the US courts are currently more than usually willing to overturn precedent, and there's an obscenity case currently in Virginia courts that bears watching. So things could change. But as it stands, the law doesn't ban fiction about 17-year-olds having sex - and if it did change, there's no guarantee that an 18+ restriction would be enough to protect Literotica.

Okay, I see that. Do you know what the law is in the state where the server is located? I have kind of a hard time not thinking that there is a legal element involved. There is an age requirement for admission but I am not sure how it would be enforced. Some of the “chatters” who have pmed me sound pretty young.

 

[XerXesXu]

I do need to caveat this with the observation that the US courts are currently more than usually willing to overturn precedent, and there's an obscenity case currently in Virginia courts that bears watching. So things could change. But as it stands, the law doesn't ban fiction about 17-year-olds having sex - and if it did change, there's no guarantee that an 18+ restriction would be enough to protect Literotica.

An interesting case, no doubt culture-war related. It's not about the age of the persons depicted, it's about specifically targeting material for a YA (children) audience including placement in school libraries. The assertion is that the community standard of obscenity is different and lesser for minors, and books which are legal to possess and sell to adults can be inhibited in their marketing and placement in respect of minors. Lit is an 18+ platform.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Okay, I see that. Do you know what the law is in the state where the server is located? I have kind of a hard time not thinking that there is a legal element involved.

I don't know where Literotica keeps its servers, but it doesn't much matter. Distributing obscene material (including online) is a federal offense. IIRC one of the sites that got busted recently had its servers in the Netherlands, or somewhere else outside the USA, and that didn't help them.

I would expect there are legal considerations influencing the site's policies, just that it's not quite as cut-and-dried as "stories about minors would be illegal". Part of the definition of obscenity is that the material transgresses against "contemporary adult community standards" and the more extreme the material is (age or otherwise) the easier it is to make a case that it does. There is also the risk that laws might change. Still, different sites have made different decisions about this - there are others which set their cutoff at 16, or don't have a cutoff at all.

 

[Bramblethorn]

An interesting case, no doubt culture-war related. It's not about the age of the persons depicted, it's about specifically targeting material for a YA (children) audience including placement in school libraries. The assertion is that the community standard of obscenity is different and lesser for minors, and books which are legal to possess and sell to adults can be inhibited in their marketing and placement in respect of minors. Lit is an 18+ platform.

School libraries are the excuse, but the case could go beyond that. The plaintiffs are seeking an injunction not only against school libraries but also against Barnes and Noble. Note this bit from the page I linked to:

"The judge has ordered the authors and publishers of the books to present more evidence so that she can make a final decision regarding whether the books may be sold or possessed in Virginia, by either minors or adults."

 

[XerXesXu]

School libraries are the excuse, but the case could go beyond that. The plaintiffs are seeking an injunction not only against school libraries but also against Barnes and Noble. Note this bit from the page I linked to:

"The judge has ordered the authors and publishers of the books to present more evidence so that she can make a final decision regarding whether the books may be sold or possessed in Virginia, by either minors or adults."

The order must be drawn in that form, see S7 and 18.2-384. The argument is that these books are not obscene for adults ie: can be lawfully possessed and sold by adults but not targeted at children. Bear in mind, in Virginia, the judges are elected by the legislature - they're politicians. She's retired and it may be that she's been 'balloted' as politically sympathetic to the politician making the application. Another judge will hear the response to the 'show cause why not' order, and this is a state court of 1st instance. It could run and run, it raises so many issues. Community standards determined by a judge sitting alone?

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter8/section18.2-384/

PS: She's not balloted, she's not the equivalent of a High Court judge, she's a Magistrate, her jurisdiction is geographical, you only need to find a book in her jurisdiction.

 

[Defluer]

I will say that I got a story stuck in submission too, it made me wonder what I did wrong but it was just missed. I think I added something to the notes like "Is there something I need to change or is this a oops?", and resubmitted and it went through.

I am not accusing OP of this, but I have come across stories here that say "High School Senior(s)" or "High School" and somehow magically people in higher grades are older but lower grades are younger are still over eighteen. I really avoid High School altogether in my stories. I like to draw the line loud and clear, graduated and over eighteen. That's me though. I'm getting older and older and "barely legal" just seems... Like something I should avoid.

But still I have a complaint that I never got out anywhere. My Sky Bus story clearly was all over eighteens. During the course of the story a Character says something like, "I've wanted to do this since Freshman year." when he finally has sex with his crush that he met at the beginning of high school. That got the story sent back. I was a little baffled because... It's almost like I have to go as far as saying nobody had any sexual thoughts until they were legal, it was frustrating and annoying but I just fixed it. I think the line is, "I've wanted to do this forever." now, which passed. With that "infraction" in mind I've just given up on a lot of stories (which isn't saying too much as I've got hundreds that I've done that to for various reasons) because I can no longer include that ANYTHING happened when the characters were younger. I wouldn't ever go into details but summer vacation flings, exes, and all that are something that I now avoid entirely. I can't build a history if it's inclusion is important and going to get the story slapped down. BUT, it's something you just deal with and write on. I haven't really looked hard but it doesn't seem like there is many sites like this one, so I'll take what I can get.

 

[oggbashan]

There are groups of people in the US who call out obscenity, particularly in relation to children.

Lit's rule is its own - it doesn't matter about laws of consent.

It helps them avoid the accusations from the anti-porn groups because Lit is supposed to be accessed by over 18s only and NO story should (but some do!) involve anyone under 18.

But arguing against the rule is pointless. It exists. We have to live with it.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Defleur,

I would have to take a look at the story in question to be sure, but it strikes me that something went sideways. You can certainly talk about things happening before characters turn 18. You just cannot have any element of sexuality in that discussion.

What might get you in trouble would be I'd wanted her in my bed since we met in high school. While that doesn't say that anything actually happened, it still includes an element of under-18 sexuality and could be enough to bounce the tale.

A second example. I got a peek into the girl's change room in high school. The memory of her perky tits filled my dreams until we were both 19 years old and I was finally able to kiss them for the first time. The actual sexual activity there is clearly post-18, but his having both seen and thought about her breasts as an under-18 would almost certainly cause the story to be rejected.

Needless to say, She and I were humping like bunnies since we were 15 years old has zero chance of being posted.

It is always Laurel's call. She owns the place, she sets the standards and she can grant minor exemptions. It is suspected, given the number of stories posted each day, is that a computer algorithm is used for preliminary screening. You can always resubmit a story unchanged, but with a note to the Administrator on the submission page explaining why you think it doesn't violate the undr-18 rule. Laurel is a reasonable person.

 

[Defluer]

TarnishedPenny,

I get your examples, even before publishing I changed my Fucking Magic story to try and steer well clear of them. Because of details of the MC's ex-girlfriend relationship that seemed okay at writing but were too close to call during editing. Maybe flagging it was a mistake of the algorithm, I don't know. But I'm 89% certain it was "I've wanted to do this since freshman year." As a laughing reply to somebody else.

There are "examples" of the line in the submissions information but for me, I guess I'm to a point where I have enough story ideas that I can stay well away from it. If a guy does his friend's mom, the crush either just started or I vague things out as much as possible when I write it, vague it out more in editing. Did he have a crush on her since his friend and him first became friends? Or just two weeks ago? I'll try and make it vague enough that the reader will have to answer that question themselves.

 

[SimonDoom]

I do need to caveat this with the observation that the US courts are currently more than usually willing to overturn precedent, and there's an obscenity case currently in Virginia courts that bears watching. So things could change. But as it stands, the law doesn't ban fiction about 17-year-olds having sex - and if it did change, there's no guarantee that an 18+ restriction would be enough to protect Literotica.

It's very difficult to predict what American courts will do, because of our decentralized system. The definition of "obscenity" itself is remarkably opaque and lends itself to variation from one jurisdiction to the next. To this day, in the US, a work is "obscene" and therefore not protected under the First Amendment, according to the United States Court in Miller v. California, a decision that was issued 49 years ago, based on a three-prong test:

(1) whether the average person applying contemporary community standards would find the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;
(2) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and
(3) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

It's a ridiculously vague test, but the US Supreme Court hasn't changed it since then, so it's still the law throughout the land. It means you probably can get away with things in California that you cannot get away with in Mississippi.

But you're absolutely right that people here often make the mistake of thinking you can't write about things that are illegal. That obviously is false. You can't legally murder people, but it seems like half of TV programming is about people murdering people. There are plenty of mainstream movies and TV shows that depict conduct among under-18 people that would be barred at Literotica. It's not illegal to write stories about people under 18 having sex or engaging in sexual behavior.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Defleur,

The line is truly fuzzy at times. I could see including I thought she was hot since the first time we met, especially if you then made it clear that nothing happened until all were 18+. Were I to be submitting a tale with that sort of backplay, I would porbably include a note to the Admin when submitting it, pointing out that nothing happens. If much hung on that fact, if it was critical to the story, I might PM Laurel in advance, explain your concepts and thoughts and get what amounts to preliminary approval.

Good luck.

 

[PennameWombat]

Defleur,

The line is truly fuzzy at times. I could see including I thought she was hot since the first time we met, especially if you then made it clear that nothing happened until all were 18+. Were I to be submitting a tale with that sort of backplay, I would porbably include a note to the Admin when submitting it, pointing out that nothing happens. If much hung on that fact, if it was critical to the story, I might PM Laurel in advance, explain your concepts and thoughts and get what amounts to preliminary approval.

Good luck.

I had a story rejected because of a short passage where a mother (over 18) flirted with a guy (already made clear he was 18) at the public swimming pool where he worked while her two children, and a few other children, played in the kiddy pool. I‘ve had a fair number of children appearing in other stories, and never had an issue.

I modified it so the children were with their grandmother that day and the mother was at the adult pool with a friend. Done. (The mother was a cousin to the guy’s new girlfriend, and she wanted to stir the pot a bit.)

In another story, my female MC said to the male MC (paraphrase), “if we’d met when I was younger, you’d be in prison now.” It was clear they’d never met and nothing had happened, but if it had, well. I included a note with the submission highlighting that passage and it passed.

 

[KeithD]

I had a story rejected because of a short passage where a mother (over 18) flirted with a guy (already made clear he was 18) at the public swimming pool where he worked while her two children, and a few other children, played in the kiddy pool. I‘ve had a fair number of children appearing in other stories, and never had an issue.

I modified it so the children were with their grandmother that day and the mother was at the adult pool with a friend. Done. (The mother was a cousin to the guy’s new girlfriend, and she wanted to stir the pot a bit.)

In another story, my female MC said to the male MC (paraphrase), “if we’d met when I was younger, you’d be in prison now.” It was clear they’d never met and nothing had happened, but if it had, well. I included a note with the submission highlighting that passage and it passed.

While the kids were in the kiddy pool, they weren't written as ever checking out what their mother was doing with the guy, right? If not, did you try refiling with the note that there was no underage sex in it and get rejected again?

This may have been a case of a hypersensitive program rejecting what Laurel won't reject. I've had stories rejected by the scanning program for underage but when I've pressed, I've never had to change a word on such a story for Laurel to pass it. I think too many underage rejections here are erroneous by the scanning program and folks just aren't pinning down the issue with Laurel.

 

[windar]

It's very difficult to predict what American courts will do, because of our decentralized system. The definition of "obscenity" itself is remarkably opaque and lends itself to variation from one jurisdiction to the next. To this day, in the US, a work is "obscene" and therefore not protected under the First Amendment, according to the United States Court in Miller v. California, a decision that was issued 49 years ago, based on a three-prong test:

(1) whether the average person applying contemporary community standards would find the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;
(2) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and
(3) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

One could argue that, if not the majority, then a fairly significant number of stories here actually violate that test.

I would also note that while Lit does a semi-effective job of banning the depiction of minors, they effectively do nothing to stop minors from reading stories here (or even posting them for that matter). And they are not alone in that of course. Sites ask "Are you 18 or over? Yes or no." and that's the extent of it. And realistically how much more would be feasible? There was a proposal in the UK for age verification, but I think it died for lack of any good way to implement it.

 

[ChloeTzang]

My point is that everyone blamed me for not following a process I did not know existed, and one that is not readily apparent. The other assumption is that I did not try to remedy the issue before venting. I appreciate the advice, but I don’t appreciate the suggestion that I should have done something I had no idea was a thing.

Also, if one looks at my initial post, I wasn’t even being an asshole about it. I stated the situation is I knew it to be, and even said I can’t really say they are violating my free speech rights.

No, no blame there. The process is totally obscure until you have it explained, and the same thing that's happened to you has happened to a lot of other writers here, including me (yeah, my first story on Literotica got reported and taken down for the exact same reasons, and a high school setting LOL). And I was totally confused as to why it'd happened at the time - and I wasn't aware of the Authors Hangout back then, so I had to figure it out on my own, which I did. Took me about 6 resubmissions before my story went thru - I'm surprised Laurel didn't get sick of my attempts, but I perservered, and here I am, 7 years and 70 stories later. So you are definitely not alone.

The main thing is to understand the reason why, and work around that. I've written quite a few stories where the main character is in her last year at high school, so Ialways very explicitly work into the story, early on, that the character is, or has recently turne, 18. I always stay away from any references to sex before the story, except in the most general comments, and often implied to the reader rather than stated outright. Never had a problem since my first story, so as long as you understand the rules, you'll be able to work with them.

Don't try and get round that under-18 rule - Laurel has been doing this for years and that's one of the things she's a stickler for. Just make sure your story complies, and even if its a bit awkward, work in some very clear statement on the age thing. I always use a birthday party, or a comment from the character, her friends or her parents. "You're eighteen! Don't act like a child". Easy peasy.

 

[SimonDoom]

One could argue that, if not the majority, then a fairly significant number of stories here actually violate that test.

I would also note that while Lit does a semi-effective job of banning the depiction of minors, they effectively do nothing to stop minors from reading stories here (or even posting them for that matter). And they are not alone in that of course. Sites ask "Are you 18 or over? Yes or no." and that's the extent of it. And realistically how much more would be feasible? There was a proposal in the UK for age verification, but I think it died for lack of any good way to implement it.

You're right. One COULD argue that. I don't think most courts would hold that Literotica content is obscene, because as a practical matter the standard for what counts as obscene has risen over the years. You can go on Pornhub or any of hundreds of sites and see content that would have been regarded as obscene five decades ago. If it's OK to make a video of it, then it's certainly OK to write a story about it. But the standard is so vague that it's not hard to imagine a rogue court in a conservative jurisdiction slamming an author for obscenity.

Shielding kids from sex stories is a lost cause, IMO. Put up a barrier and the kids will get around it in five minutes. It's hopeless.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Heck, they get the sex stories in school these days.