Literotica censorship

[Bramblethorn]

Heck, they get the sex stories in school these days.

I went to a staid religious-affiliated private school some decades ago, the kind where sex-ed was mostly "don't have sex before marriage".

In seventh grade English class we studied John Donne's "The Flea", where Donne attempts to convince his would-be girlfriend that since they've both been bitten by the same insect, a little more penetration couldn't hurt.

Not long after we studied Chaucer, including the Miller's Tale (adultery and a poker up the bum), the Reeve's Tale (two students revenge themselves on a dishonest miller by raping his wife and daughter, who falls in love with her rapist), and the Wife of Bath's Tale, where a knight is sent on a quest as penance for rape.

From there we progressed to several of Shakespeare's plays, encountering metaphors such as "he plowed her, and she cropped". Somewhere around grade eleven or twelve, we did a more contemporary story with a fairly explicit scene involving under-18 characters.

Meanwhile, the library had plenty of sexual content for those willing to explore, including a lot of Piers Anthony's YA and adult fiction; I remember one of my friends describing a scene where the hero is practising for some sort of event where he has to publicly rape the woman he's trying to marry.

"Sex stories in school" isn't a new thing. But none of those stories that I can recall involved queer sexuality, or trans characters. Coincidentally, nobody had an issue with all the frequently-rapey-sex that we were exposed to in high school English.

 

[SimonDoom]

I went to a staid religious-affiliated private school some decades ago, the kind where sex-ed was mostly "don't have sex before marriage".

In seventh grade English class we studied John Donne's "The Flea", where Donne attempts to convince his would-be girlfriend that since they've both been bitten by the same insect, a little more penetration couldn't hurt.

Not long after we studied Chaucer, including the Miller's Tale (adultery and a poker up the bum), the Reeve's Tale (two students revenge themselves on a dishonest miller by raping his wife and daughter, who falls in love with her rapist), and the Wife of Bath's Tale, where a knight is sent on a quest as penance for rape.

From there we progressed to several of Shakespeare's plays, encountering metaphors such as "he plowed her, and she cropped". Somewhere around grade eleven or twelve, we did a more contemporary story with a fairly explicit scene involving under-18 characters.

Meanwhile, the library had plenty of sexual content for those willing to explore, including a lot of Piers Anthony's YA and adult fiction; I remember one of my friends describing a scene where the hero is practising for some sort of event where he has to publicly rape the woman he's trying to marry.

"Sex stories in school" isn't a new thing. But none of those stories that I can recall involved queer sexuality, or trans characters. Coincidentally, nobody had an issue with all the frequently-rapey-sex that we were exposed to in high school English.

My take on this:

Sex in literature is nothing new. It's always been with us. It's always been a lot kinkier and weirder than some would like to admit.

And that's a good thing.

I'm impressed/startled that you read The Flea in 7th grade. I'm trying to imagine what the 7th grade English teacher would tell his/her class about that poem. I wrote an essay about that poem, but it was as a college sophomore, not a 7th grader.

 

[ElectricBlue]

In seventh grade English class we studied John Donne's "The Flea", where Donne attempts to convince his would-be girlfriend that since they've both been bitten by the same insect, a little more penetration couldn't hurt.

What country was that, Bramble?

I think I did Donne (including The Flea) in Year 11 (Fifth Form, as it was then) in NSW.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Similar to Bramble, we did Unman, Wittering & Zigo in second year (ie age 12-13, Y8), where schoolboys murder a teacher; our teacher showed us the 18-rated film where they also rape the teacher's wife (the play implies it might have happened). No Chaucer until A-level (age 16-18), but GCSE years (13-16) included Hardy (plenty of rape, forced marriage, etc), and Shakespeare, where if you don't think there's queer content you haven't looked properly.

My first piece of slash fiction was Antonio/Bassanio from Merchant of Venice, submitted as GCSE coursework, but Mercutio/Tybalt was also suggested as topic by our teacher. There's a play about them coming out which I want to see.

Our English teacher pointed out that Section 28 banned mention of "homosexuality as part of a pretended family relationship", not in general.

I can't recall whether there's any sex in Lord of the Flies, but we certainly discussed the chances of it not happening.

 

[Bramblethorn]

What country was that, Bramble?

Australia. Oh, and we also watched Polanski's Macbeth - I don't recall actual sex in that one, but significant nudity and a lot of violence.

Similar to Bramble, we did Unman, Wittering & Zigo in second year (ie age 12-13, Y8), where schoolboys murder a teacher; our teacher showed us the 18-rated film where they also rape the teacher's wife (the play implies it might have happened). No Chaucer until A-level (age 16-18), but GCSE years (13-16) included Hardy (plenty of rape, forced marriage, etc), and Shakespeare, where if you don't think there's queer content you haven't looked properly.

Definitely queer content in Shakespeare, but not a lot that I recall in the specific plays we studied, and none that our teachers called our attention to...

I can't recall whether there's any sex in Lord of the Flies, but we certainly discussed the chances of it not happening.

No sex that I can recall, but apparently Simon is queer coded (I missed it at the time, but that doesn't mean much).

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Australia. Oh, and we also watched Polanski's Macbeth - I don't recall actual sex in that one, but significant nudity and a lot of violence.



Definitely queer content in Shakespeare, but not a lot that I recall in the specific plays we studied, and none that our teachers called our attention to...



No sex that I can recall, but apparently Simon is queer coded (I missed it at the time, but that doesn't mean much).

Ah, the classic 'not like the rest of the boys', which could mean anything from preferring individual sports to rugby, liking reading, being lower class, to being gay.

Nowadays could mean almost anything (though probably queer, genderqueer, and/or neurodiverse) - I remember getting to Australia's (terrible) song in Eurovision this year when yet another sad boy ballad had sad boy whining about not being like the other boys, and all boyfriend and I could say was "oh, get a room with the last four who said that"...

I can't recall queer subtext in Macbeth but I'm sure there is some - I'll have to ask my friend who teaches that era of lit.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Ah, the classic 'not like the rest of the boys', which could mean anything from preferring individual sports to rugby, liking reading, being lower class, to being gay.

Nowadays could mean almost anything (though probably queer, genderqueer, and/or neurodiverse) - I remember getting to Australia's (terrible) song in Eurovision this year when yet another sad boy ballad had sad boy whining about not being like the other boys, and all boyfriend and I could say was "oh, get a room with the last four who said that"...

I didn't hate it, but it wasn't a Eurovision song for me, and it was one of three like that in the Australian qualifiers. I preferred this one which came top of the popular vote by a mile but didn't grab the jury, for whatever reason.

I can't recall queer subtext in Macbeth but I'm sure there is some - I'll have to ask my friend who teaches that era of lit.

Let me know, I'm keen to hear what I missed!

 

[SimonDoom]

I can't recall queer subtext in Macbeth but I'm sure there is some - I'll have to ask my friend who teaches that era of lit.

I'm not so sure. There's plenty of queer subtext in Shakespeare plays if one wants to look for it (part of what I like so much about Shakespeare is that his writing allows for an almost infinite variety of interpretation). Hamlet, of course. Twelfth Night. Othello, perhaps. But I don't see it in MacBeth. It's got a "straight guy" vibe to me.

 

[oggbashan]

I'm not so sure. There's plenty of queer subtext in Shakespeare plays if one wants to look for it (part of what I like so much about Shakespeare is that his writing allows for an almost infinite variety of interpretation). Hamlet, of course. Twelfth Night. Othello, perhaps. But I don't see it in MacBeth. It's got a "straight guy" vibe to me.

I went to an Australian production of Macbeth that was awful. It was a production for school kids who were studying Macbeth for the year before University.

We all knew the play inside out - the actors didn't and fluffed their lines and were prompted loudly from the front stalls.

One of the 'sons' who was killed was a very buxom Australian actress famed for her love affairs. The killing on stage was more like a rape than murder and attracted derision..

 

[pink_silk_glove]

We're getting off topic here but I don't think that we can have a discussion of queer subtext without mentioning Moby Dick - a bunch of able seamen together on a ship for three years, excited to hunt down sperm whales. Even after the opening scene of Ishmael waking up in bed with the savage Queequeg, there's the Pip character (little subby cabin boy), the 'gam' event, and that whole 'squeeze of the hand' chapter that flat out mentions lonely men at sea.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

I will say that I got a story stuck in submission too, it made me wonder what I did wrong but it was just missed. I think I added something to the notes like "Is there something I need to change or is this a oops?", and resubmitted and it went through.

I am not accusing OP of this, but I have come across stories here that say "High School Senior(s)" or "High School" and somehow magically people in higher grades are older but lower grades are younger are still over eighteen. I really avoid High School altogether in my stories. I like to draw the line loud and clear, graduated and over eighteen. That's me though. I'm getting older and older and "barely legal" just seems... Like something I should avoid.

But still I have a complaint that I never got out anywhere. My Sky Bus story clearly was all over eighteens. During the course of the story a Character says something like, "I've wanted to do this since Freshman year." when he finally has sex with his crush that he met at the beginning of high school. That got the story sent back. I was a little baffled because... It's almost like I have to go as far as saying nobody had any sexual thoughts until they were legal, it was frustrating and annoying but I just fixed it. I think the line is, "I've wanted to do this forever." now, which passed. With that "infraction" in mind I've just given up on a lot of stories (which isn't saying too much as I've got hundreds that I've done that to for various reasons) because I can no longer include that ANYTHING happened when the characters were younger. I wouldn't ever go into details but summer vacation flings, exes, and all that are something that I now avoid entirely. I can't build a history if it's inclusion is important and going to get the story slapped down. BUT, it's something you just deal with and write on. I haven't really looked hard but it doesn't seem like there is many sites like this one, so I'll take what I can get.

That is weird. It has never been illegal for two minors to have sex, so it is “forbidden” to write about two minors having or thinking about having sex? How do they feel about “Romeo and Juliet” or “Grease” I wonder.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

That is weird. It has never been illegal for two minors to have sex, so it is “forbidden” to write about two minors having or thinking about having sex? How do they feel about “Romeo and Juliet” or “Grease” I wonder.

The point has been made more than once. The only possible response is that it’s immaterial, that Shakespeare isn’t approaching Lit with his new play. It’s a private site, with the right to set Amy rules they wish.

You’re not wrong, in other words, just not yet…

assimilated.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

Oh sorry. Didn’t mean to beat a dead horse. But it does make it a little hard to guess what is going to be okay and what is not. I had a snake for a while in the story I am working on finishing. I wrote a little note to the admins when I submitted the episode it was in offering to edit it out if it was not okay to have it as a minor part of the action. They cleared it, so i guess it was.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Oh sorry. Didn’t mean to beat a dead horse. But it does make it a little hard to guess what is going to be okay and what is not. I had a snake for a while in the story I am working on finishing. I wrote a little note to the admins when I submitted the episode it was in offering to edit it out if it was not okay to have it as a minor part of the action. They cleared it, so i guess it was.

Providing the snake isn't inserted, you're going to be fine. And if it's Eve's snake, it's not bestial, it's Satan, and he's fine in stories too.

It's just the "no sex under eighteen" bit you have to get right, and really, that's not a hard concept to grasp. Why do you think so many people have just turned eighteen in these stories? To really avoid the dilemma, just write about adults having sexual encounters, and leave teenagers to their own devices.

 

[windar]

That is weird. It has never been illegal for two minors to have sex, so it is “forbidden” to write about two minors having or thinking about having sex? How do they feel about “Romeo and Juliet” or “Grease” I wonder.

Well, they're have been times and places where it's illegal for anyone except married, straight couples to have sex. Even today, in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, among others...

An interesting legal point-say two sixteen year olds have sex. Not illegal in Western countries. But if they film it, it's child porn and very illegal...

None of which is relevant to the policies that web sites adopt. I have to say that high school was the most miserable, boring time in my life and I suspect that was true for many others. So my interest in writing about is ZERO.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

+1 on high school, Windar.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

I'm not so sure. There's plenty of queer subtext in Shakespeare plays if one wants to look for it (part of what I like so much about Shakespeare is that his writing allows for an almost infinite variety of interpretation). Hamlet, of course. Twelfth Night. Othello, perhaps. But I don't see it in MacBeth. It's got a "straight guy" vibe to me.

You gotta remember that, Gwyneth Paltrow notwithstanding, all of Shakespeare’s actors were male perforce. There is some unsubstantiated suspicion that the queen might have acted in a play or two in private but that is completely legendary.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

+1 on high school, Windar.

8th grade was the worst year of my life back then.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

You gotta remember that, Gwyneth Paltrow notwithstanding, all of Shakespeare’s actors were male perforce.

And Willy had a man playing Rosalind in ‘As You Like It’. A man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man…

And making it work, too!

 

[TheRedChamber]

You gotta remember that, Gwyneth Paltrow notwithstanding, all of Shakespeare’s actors were male perforce. There is some unsubstantiated suspicion that the queen might have acted in a play or two in private but that is completely legendary.

It is completely false that the Queen would act in a play while stressing in proclamations every night the importance of ordinary female citizens abstaining from any theatrical performances. It goes without saying that all guidelines on performing arts were followed to the letter within Hampton Court.

…

It may be the case that, during a private gathering, the Queen did maybe utter a few lines from Shakespeare and maybe tried on a costume or two on a couple of occasions, but we deny catagorically rumours of whole soliloquies. The lines uttered did not represent a performance per se, but merely served to highlight, for her Majesty, the way in which the theatre works. We should definitely wait for the results of the Essex Report before jumping to any conclusions in this matter.

…

You may have heard from the town-crier today that Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth (the First of Her Name) was fined 10 guineas by the Metropolitan Police for her performance as Falstaff in Henry IV Part One, Henry IV Part Two and the Merry Wives of Windsor. I wish to stress that Her Majesty has now paid these fines in full. With rumours of an Armada gathering in Spain, this is not the time for national disunity, and as a result we should all now move on from this matter. No further questions on this matter will be answered.

 

[purvis2]

I had one story rejected for using a commercial product in a sexy way. I rewrote it as a generic product but there is only one company that makes it. It passed but only survived a month before someone reported it. It has now gone and I won't try editing and resubmitting. I can't get around the problem that only one company makes it and I was using it inappropriately.

I wonder if "that company" made legal threats that forced its removal?

 

[KeithD]

I wonder if "that company" made legal threats that forced its removal?

Not if they had their lawyer look at it. Taking it up would be a financial loss for the company for a multitude of blind alley reasons.

 

[Defluer]

Not if they had their lawyer look at it. Taking it up would be a financial loss for the company for a multitude of blind alley reasons.

But something happened to get that story rejected and then pulled. Possibly a company with previous history of chasing in here? Because, as I've said before, I have a certain large chain store in one of my stories. The sex takes place in the store. How is that any different from whatever was happening in oggbashan's story? If write sex happening in the store it's okay, but if a character uses telekinetic powers to fuck a giant with the store that's bad?

 

[oggbashan]

Not if they had their lawyer look at it. Taking it up would be a financial loss for the company for a multitude of blind alley reasons.

But a simple letter or email would be enough to get the story pulled.

 

[SimonDoom]

8th grade was the worst year of my life back then.

That's probably a common experience. 8th grade might be the most awkward year of one's life. Puberty hits, but it hits everybody differently. I was a late bloomer, so I spent much of that time wondering if I would always be shorter than the other boys. That feeling didn't go away until 9th grade, when I grew about six inches and passed most of them. Of course, then I got acne.