Men, I'm dissapointed

[Doog_kuron]

X2

Assholes are assholes, no matter how well mannered they are, how well dressed they may be, no matter how "good" or "nice" they say they are. You have to take into account not only what you are attracted to as a woman, but what you attract to yourself by your own attire and attitude.

BTW, your short list? Isn't that the definition of a "nice guy"? If he isn't, at the very least, those things, then how can he be considered nice?

I'm with you on this one. A lot of those 'basic' points list doesn't necessarily mean that this will give you a man who will make you happy and satisfy you. Men are not all one generic group that can be pigeon holed, any more than women can be. There's diversity out there. If you find yourself meeting the same sort of men that you despise then, as others have said, your clearly looking in the wrong area.

I myself have met women who have given me nothing but misery, just as I have met women who have been nothing but joy for me. Baffles me that people can just generalise as much as they have.

 

[Tsotha]

I'm with you on this one. A lot of those 'basic' points list doesn't necessarily mean that this will give you a man who will make you happy and satisfy you. Men are not all one generic group that can be pigeon holed, any more than women can be. There's diversity out there. If you find yourself meeting the same sort of men that you despise then, as others have said, your clearly looking in the wrong area.

I myself have met women who have given me nothing but misery, just as I have met women who have been nothing but joy for me. Baffles me that people can just generalise as much as they have.

She isn't saying all men are like that, she is saying that she meets men with those characteristics too often. The reasonable response to her "issue" is Rainshine's post on page 1, I think. Sure, some men are disgusting, but there should be plenty of acceptable specimens out there, given her short list of preferences.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Looks like the OP is changing her tactics.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D9F6tpLpESk/T9R0XrNxdhI/AAAAAAAACtw/-WgsS4a77g4/s1600/photo%2B%284%29.JPG

 

[tattedreader]

Your rant is like saying "I wonder how many of those people who complain about how hard it is to afford a boat have considered how difficult it is to find a yacht that has teak that doesn't need to be refinished; not to mention staterooms where the carpeting doesn't have to be replaced. And don't get me started on the cost of a good captain!"

Exactly.

 

[tattedreader]

Greetings,

A friend of mine once pointed out that women are like cats and men are more like dogs.
My friend is a guy and it is not intended as an insult. Just a distinction.

I can't speak for all women of course but people seem to have forgotten the sensual and just jump to the sex.

You never heard two cats fucking? There's two in my neighborhood going at it for the past week. Doesn't sound all that sensual to me!

 

[policywank]

I agree with Sheena.

She sure has stirred up some issues, but I really don't think the pile on is fair.

Here you have a woman saying she wants sex and is prepared to give a man consideration if he is presentable and doesn't behave like an asshole - hardly seems like an unreasonable ask.

However, I would say to both genders that if we took half as much time trying to understand the other as we do in trying to reinforce our own pre-existing biases everyone would be getting a lot more action.

As a relatively promiscuous woman I would say the following to men:
- women who enjoy sex have fucked other guys, get over it
- being sex positive does not in any way mean I am open to being used or abused
- I will never forfeit my right to choose my sexual partners - the notion that a "slut" will fuck anybody or is somehow less selective is beyond stupid
- sexual attraction is deeper than the physical and when the connection is wrong it may have nothing to do with your prowess
- regardless of how far I let you go you are not entitled to anything - if I shut you down as you are trying to slide into home its because I am not prepared to go there or you have done something to turn me off, its not because I just decided to be arbitrarily cruel
- your buddies don't know anymore about women than you do, especially the ones that think they do
- physical violence is a huge concern, there is nothing you can say in a single conversation to make this concern go away for a woman half your size who knows sex is one of the most potent motivators for a man

And to women I would say:
- no means no always - but using that as cover to treat men like play things then cut them loose when you are done playing is a bitchy thing to do
- putting oneself out there to be judged by women is very hard, often demoralizing and generally makes things easier on us - think about how many dumb things you would say if you always had to take the initiative and be nice when you turn a man down
- the stereotypes you apply to men are no more accurate than the ones they apply to you
- your girlfriends don't know anymore about men than you do, especially the ones that think they do
- don't go to a bar in a mini skirt looking for a husband anymore than you would go to an auto shop looking for groceries
- faint praise or condescension is transparently offensive - a man would far rather be slapped than called cute
- listen to what was said not what you heard - "cunt" is universally offensive, "pussy" is not - its actually the most inoffensive non-clinical reference to the vagina - there are lots of scenarios where discussion of your pussy is offside, but if you are unable to discuss it at all.....well grow up

 

[Blase]

I agree with Sheena.

She sure has stirred up some issues, but I really don't think the pile on is fair.

Here you have a woman saying she wants sex and is prepared to give a man consideration if he is presentable and doesn't behave like an asshole - hardly seems like an unreasonable ask.

I think that some of the "pile on" - some of the repeated criticisms - that you refer to happened because people made points that Sheana didn't really seem to address.

Before anyone raises their voice to rebut me, let me quickly say that some of the people making critical comments had a similar problem: They were criticizing things that Sheana hadn't actually said.

To wit, the people who said "Don't look for Mr. Right in a bar". That's probably pretty sound advice, but Sheana never said she was looking for a life partner. From her profile and her posts, it appears that she already has a female significant other and several male friends with benefits. She just feels that she'd like to find some more quality friends with benefits and was lamenting the fact that the process is so laborious and fraught with dangers such as being called a bitch by entitled men.

One problem that many readers have with the above is that Sheana is already enjoying a level of success beyond what most people will ever experience. To them, her complaint essentially reads as whining.

There were, however, some people who tried to address the substance of what she said. A few suggested that she seemed to be meeting men in the wrong places (likely in clubs, given the culture she describes) and suggested that she should reconsider her choice of venue. I, for example, suggested that looking for partners in clubs increases the risk of being called a bitch by rejected suitors, and that there might be places to look where the culture is such that one is much less likely to be called a bitch by the amorously unsuccessful. Sheana's response was that she had "given up" on the thread. In other words, she apparently thought my input was absurd.

But why? I can't read her mind, but I'm guessing she thinks that, as difficult as she may find it to meet quality men and avoid jerks in nightspots, she feels that she'd have an even more difficult time finding suitable partners in other venues, like the charity fundraisers that I mentioned in passing.

Now, I didn't mention charity fundraisers because I think they're spectacularly well suited to partner prospecting, but they are one example of a venue where the men you meet are both less likely to call you a bitch and also, by the way, less likely to have alcohol problems (Compared to the general population, alcoholics are over-represented in bars. And as a corollary, I'd bet good money that men who call women nasty names upon finding themselves rejected are over-represented among alcoholics). Sheana might respond that it's silly to look for partners at fundraisers because people don't go to fundraisers to find partners, but she seems to be overlooking something: Being a young, attractive female gives her such a powerful advantage that she unquestionably should be able to be more successful in just about any social environment than the average person, male or female. She already is in her preferred environments, after all.

So my critique of Sheana's rant boils down to this: You appear to be complaining about meeting too many obnoxious guys in an environment where you're more likely to meet obnoxious guys. If you feel that this negative is offset by the sheer numbers of available guys who are present, then it sounds like you have a pretty good tradeoff. If, however, you feel that you do not, it sounds like you are, quite simply, attractive enough to do fairly well even in less target-rich environments where the majority of people would do less well, if they didn't fail entirely.

How much better do you feel you should have it?

And, yes, I get that you're saying that things would be better for members of both genders if the legions of slovenly, ill-mannered cads would man up and get with the program. But I'd seriously advise you to focus more on the things that are within your control.

 

[Sheana_V]

I think that some of the "pile on" - some of the repeated criticisms - that you refer to happened because people made points that Sheana didn't really seem to address.

Before anyone raises their voice to rebut me, let me quickly say that some of the people making critical comments had a similar problem: They were criticizing things that Sheana hadn't actually said.

To wit, the people who said "Don't look for Mr. Right in a bar". That's probably pretty sound advice, but Sheana never said she was looking for a life partner. From her profile and her posts, it appears that she already has a female significant other and several male friends with benefits. She just feels that she'd like to find some more quality friends with benefits and was lamenting the fact that the process is so laborious and fraught with dangers such as being called a bitch by entitled men.

One problem that many readers have with the above is that Sheana is already enjoying a level of success beyond what most people will ever experience. To them, her complaint essentially reads as whining.

There were, however, some people who tried to address the substance of what she said. A few suggested that she seemed to be meeting men in the wrong places (likely in clubs, given the culture she describes) and suggested that she should reconsider her choice of venue. I, for example, suggested that looking for partners in clubs increases the risk of being called a bitch by rejected suitors, and that there might be places to look where the culture is such that one is much less likely to be called a bitch by the amorously unsuccessful. Sheana's response was that she had "given up" on the thread. In other words, she apparently thought my input was absurd.

But why? I can't read her mind, but I'm guessing she thinks that, as difficult as she may find it to meet quality men and avoid jerks in nightspots, she feels that she'd have an even more difficult time finding suitable partners in other venues, like the charity fundraisers that I mentioned in passing.

Now, I didn't mention charity fundraisers because I think they're spectacularly well suited to partner prospecting, but they are one example of a venue where the men you meet are both less likely to call you a bitch and also, by the way, less likely to have alcohol problems (Compared to the general population, alcoholics are over-represented in bars. And as a corollary, I'd bet good money that men who call women nasty names upon finding themselves rejected are over-represented among alcoholics). Sheana might respond that it's silly to look for partners at fundraisers because people don't go to fundraisers to find partners, but she seems to be overlooking something: Being a young, attractive female gives her such a powerful advantage that she unquestionably should be able to be more successful in just about any social environment than the average person, male or female. She already is in her preferred environments, after all.

So my critique of Sheana's rant boils down to this: You appear to be complaining about meeting too many obnoxious guys in an environment where you're more likely to meet obnoxious guys. If you feel that this negative is offset by the sheer numbers of available guys who are present, then it sounds like you have a pretty good tradeoff. If, however, you feel that you do not, it sounds like you are, quite simply, attractive enough to do fairly well even in less target-rich environments where the majority of people would do less well, if they didn't fail entirely.

How much better do you feel you should have it?

And, yes, I get that you're saying that things would be better for members of both genders if the legions of slovenly, ill-mannered cads would man up and get with the program. But I'd seriously advise you to focus more on the things that are within your control.

I got burned out on the thread because separating the wheat from the chaff was too difficult. And I realized my thesis was more about how some men seem to make shit way harder for all men.

 

[Blase]

I got burned out on the thread because separating the wheat from the chaff was too difficult. And I realized my thesis was more about how some men seem to make shit way harder for all men.

Then I guess we're not really disagreeing.

I'm afraid the problem you've identified is a pretty intractable one, though. Certainly worth discussing, but essentially the problem is how to change the culture... of a culture.

 

[NippleMuncher]

I got burned out on the thread because separating the wheat from the chaff was too difficult. And I realized my thesis was more about how some men seem to make shit way harder for all men.

Now see, if you'd have led with this, you'd have gotten a much better response from all. Most of us would agree that it is ALWAYS the few who fuck it up for the rest, regardless of gender, race, creed, etc.

 

[john415]

To all the " nice guys"
Dudes, stop putting every woman you met into the girlfriend zone.

 

[policywank]

As pointed out, our culture is what it is - we can discuss and lament, but we can't really change it.

However, as with anything in our culture we can do our part to be different. More importantly we can negotiate our way through life a lot easier if we understand where other people are coming from.

That is why I say things like the risk of assault is a very real thing for women. We can't know which men are a risk and the ones that say they aren't sound the most risky. Don't waste energy telling her not to be worried, conduct yourself in a manner as to ensure she isn't worried which includes respecting boundaries.

Likewise I say to women, a lot of the smarmy things guys do is at least partially the result of the way they are treated by women. Whether or not you are a bitch when you turn them down a lot of women are. That is no excuse for them being rude, but when you decide how to interact with them consider that they have already taken a lot of shit. From a guy's point of view the way a lot of women turn them down is much more offensive than simply being called a bad name.

I know this is politically incorrect but if a guy calls you a bitch or a girl calls you an asshole, consider for a moment what you did to get that reaction.

If it post marriage break-up and he tells everyone he dumped you because your a bitch, well that is just nasty. However, if you are living in the house he paid for and banging his best friend while he lives in a bachelor pad just getting by......well maybe you are a bitch.

 

[Marci_M]

Hmmm... that's probably a good idea. Though I haven't thought a ton about it. It's always easier to point out what is frustrating than to think of what you'd ideally like. It's also hard, because even the ideal man would not be someone I'd know was ideal at first. So the general behavior of men still creates a barrier.

Minimum requirements:
- Clean and well groomed
- Dressed with at least some sense that they paid attention to their clothes.
- Respectful of boundaries
- Able to communicate effectively

That would be my short list.

Ok, I agree, but I'll add to this list:

- Well employed
- Not living with parents
- And not very overweight, a sure turn-off

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I agree with Sheena.

She sure has stirred up some issues, but I really don't think the pile on is fair.

Here you have a woman saying she wants sex and is prepared to give a man consideration if he is presentable and doesn't behave like an asshole - hardly seems like an unreasonable ask.

However, I would say to both genders that if we took half as much time trying to understand the other as we do in trying to reinforce our own pre-existing biases everyone would be getting a lot more action.

As a relatively promiscuous woman I would say the following to men:
- women who enjoy sex have fucked other guys, get over it
- being sex positive does not in any way mean I am open to being used or abused
- I will never forfeit my right to choose my sexual partners - the notion that a "slut" will fuck anybody or is somehow less selective is beyond stupid
- sexual attraction is deeper than the physical and when the connection is wrong it may have nothing to do with your prowess
- regardless of how far I let you go you are not entitled to anything - if I shut you down as you are trying to slide into home its because I am not prepared to go there or you have done something to turn me off, its not because I just decided to be arbitrarily cruel
- your buddies don't know anymore about women than you do, especially the ones that think they do
- physical violence is a huge concern, there is nothing you can say in a single conversation to make this concern go away for a woman half your size who knows sex is one of the most potent motivators for a man

And to women I would say:
- no means no always - but using that as cover to treat men like play things then cut them loose when you are done playing is a bitchy thing to do
- putting oneself out there to be judged by women is very hard, often demoralizing and generally makes things easier on us - think about how many dumb things you would say if you always had to take the initiative and be nice when you turn a man down
- the stereotypes you apply to men are no more accurate than the ones they apply to you
- your girlfriends don't know anymore about men than you do, especially the ones that think they do
- don't go to a bar in a mini skirt looking for a husband anymore than you would go to an auto shop looking for groceries
- faint praise or condescension is transparently offensive - a man would far rather be slapped than called cute
- listen to what was said not what you heard - "cunt" is universally offensive, "pussy" is not - its actually the most inoffensive non-clinical reference to the vagina - there are lots of scenarios where discussion of your pussy is offside, but if you are unable to discuss it at all.....well grow up

On the whole I think your advice is a crock of shit and a prescription for disaster, though I agree with you on some particulars.

 

[October46]

Hmmm... that's probably a good idea. Though I haven't thought a ton about it. It's always easier to point out what is frustrating than to think of what you'd ideally like. It's also hard, because even the ideal man would not be someone I'd know was ideal at first. So the general behavior of men still creates a barrier.

Minimum requirements:
- Clean and well groomed
- Dressed with at least some sense that they paid attention to their clothes.
- Respectful of boundaries
- Able to communicate effectively

That would be my short list.

Great short list!

 

[Tsotha]

The amount of stupidity and prejudice in this thread is unbelievable.

 

[ZiggyTheHutt]

The amount of stupidity and prejudice in this thread is unbelievable.

Take heart that the vocal minority does not represent the viewpoint of every person.

You can mud-wrestle with pigs all day long, but you'll only get dirty and the pig will enjoy it far more than you will, irrespective of which side eventually wins. The pig is also too stupid to understand that he just lost.

Normal people don't have the time or inclination to wrestle with a drove of internet pigs. Just because you hear a lot of oinking and squealing, that doesn't mean all men are pigs.

 

[Tsotha]

Take heart that the vocal minority does not represent the viewpoint of every person.

You can mud-wrestle with pigs all day long, but you'll only get dirty and the pig will enjoy it far more than you will, irrespective of which side eventually wins. The pig is also too stupid to understand that he just lost.

Normal people don't have the time or inclination to wrestle with a drove of internet pigs. Just because you hear a lot of oinking and squealing, that doesn't mean all men are pigs.

Funny, I was actually talking about discrimination against men and all these notions about what men are or should be. In any case, your advice still applies. I obviously shouldn't judge ALL women because of a few.

 

[ZiggyTheHutt]

Funny, I was actually talking about discrimination against men and all these notions about what men are or should be. In any case, your advice still applies. I obviously shouldn't judge ALL women because of a few.

What you'll notice is that each side considers the other to be the side that needs to work on how they treat others.

I'm a guy, I'm offended by certain ideas and expectations about me, just because I'm male.

I don't subscribe to the notion that it is okay to physically or verbally abuse me just because I'm a guy and I'm supposed to be tough enough to just deal with it. So? I still don't want to be mistreated just because of some sexist double standard.

I don't subscribe to the notion that I owe you anything if we end a relationship. This is the modern age where you have the same capability of getting a job that I have. Only in the case of a child we made together do I feel I owe you my assistance.

That being said, a lot of the complaints I hear from women about men are entirely valid. Some men don't care about how bad their breath stinks, or whether their nuts have been washed recently, or how they dress, and expect to only date the most attractive airbrushed models that are half silicone, when they can barely run a comb through their hair.

Some men believe they're entitled to a date, and that if they get turned down, they're entitled to be insulting toward this other person. Some men believe they are owed something if they offer to take someone out to dinner and a movie. Some don't respect personal space, and so on and so forth. You also have your straight-up misogynists who think women are lesser people to be owned and possessed and treated however they please.

There's also a ridiculous double standard that men can fuck anyone they want, and that's supposed to be okay, but if women do the same, they are sluts and whores. In every instance, the man is wanting behavior from the woman that they are not willing to produce themselves.

That points to men being selfish, arrogant, and unpleasant in general. And you'd have to look very hard for someone who isn't that way, or put up with it, in order to have sex, if you're someone who wants to have sex with men.

Whereas men don't have to look very hard to find a woman who actually tries to look her best.

 

[Tsotha]

What you'll notice is that each side considers the other to be the side that needs to work on how they treat others.

I'm a guy, I'm offended by certain ideas and expectations about me, just because I'm male.

I don't subscribe to the notion that it is okay to physically or verbally abuse me just because I'm a guy and I'm supposed to be tough enough to just deal with it. So? I still don't want to be mistreated just because of some sexist double standard.

I don't subscribe to the notion that I owe you anything if we end a relationship. This is the modern age where you have the same capability of getting a job that I have. Only in the case of a child we made together do I feel I owe you my assistance.

That being said, a lot of the complaints I hear from women about men are entirely valid. Some men don't care about how bad their breath stinks, or whether their nuts have been washed recently, or how they dress, and expect to only date the most attractive airbrushed models that are half silicone, when they can barely run a comb through their hair.

Some men believe they're entitled to a date, and that if they get turned down, they're entitled to be insulting toward this other person. Some men believe they are owed something if they offer to take someone out to dinner and a movie. Some don't respect personal space, and so on and so forth. You also have your straight-up misogynists who think women are lesser people to be owned and possessed and treated however they please.

There's also a ridiculous double standard that men can fuck anyone they want, and that's supposed to be okay, but if women do the same, they are sluts and whores. In every instance, the man is wanting behavior from the woman that they are not willing to produce themselves.

That points to men being selfish, arrogant, and unpleasant in general. And you'd have to look very hard for someone who isn't that way, or put up with it, in order to have sex, if you're someone who wants to have sex with men.

Some men "this and that", so this points to men being selfish, arrogant and unpleasant? If I come up with my own list of "this and that" about women, do I also get to say that it points to women being unpleasant in general?

Whereas men don't have to look very hard to find a woman who actually tries to look her best.

Women "in general" aren't selfish, arrogant and unpleasant, then, in your opinion?

 

[Tsotha]

The entire human race is made up of pathetic creatures who have little or no empathy and feel entitled to things. That is just how we are built, physically. However, what specific personality traits one receives (arrogant, entitled, selfish, unpleasant, and all other traits) isn't so much a matter of gender, but of what kind of education and life experiences people get.

It's unfortunate that what gender you're born with (and skin color, and nationality) determines so much about what you're allowed in life, and what experiences you're more likely to go through. It's not easy for any human being to navigate the maze. However, it still doesn't change that this entire thread is about prejudice. I have plenty of examples of disgusting females in my head, and disgusting "female behavior" (which isn't female behavior, just the behavior some women present as a result of their upbringing) but I'm not about to start citing them here just to get the "pleasure" (???) of attacking the female gender "in general".

As I said before, can't find what you're looking for? Tough luck. Join the club. Look elsewhere.

 

[BiTodd]

Maybe the good ones are taken.

 

[QuantumJumping]

The amount of stupidity and prejudice in this thread is unbelievable.

Oh, I believe it.

 

[QuantumJumping]

I think you may be the first to address that part of the OP's problem. Meeting guys in venues where you often get called a bitch for rejecting their advances (I'm guessing that *most* of these encounters have not occurred at, say, charitable fundraisers) is sort of like walking down dark alleys at night and complaining that one is likely to get robbed.

Do you have a right to walk down dark alleys at night? Yes.

If someone robs you, are they in the wrong, despite your presence in a secluded spot at a late hour? Absolutely.

Should you have known better...?

HEY! You're using common sense on Lit! What are you thinking? LMAO

 

[panty_aussie]

hey

well men and women never will agree , unless that guy is gay

I agree should be minmum standards but the probelm saying guys should be well dressed.

What is well dressed to one women is completly different to another

also well alot of girls want that pretty boy 6 pack problem is that guy spends more time looking at mirror than you do

I know i like minmum standard women is that she is friendly and can have a conversation more than just about what shoes she bought.

Also i know but a women who dosent dress slutty tits popping out and arss showing is good for one night stand but not for dating

So i know there is good women to date but they are few and far between

I have met quite a few women but most were dressed like looking for one night stand than anything else