No Recidivism

[R. Richard]

And vigilantes always rush to their judgement. Ask American Blacks what they think of vigilante justice. The court system may fare no better; take a look at all the wrongful convictions that have been uncovered in recent years.
I'm sympathetic to your feelings on such criminal acts, but I've too often seen the innocent convicted to accept quick judgements of guilt.
Public execution may seem to offer some deterrence, but a look at the record shows it never has.

The final judgement was delivered by a cassation court. As I pointed out before, a cassation court is the third judicial level. The judgement of guilt wasn't a quick, single thing. There were at least two reviews of the first judgement.

If you want a quick judgement, look at the three-year-old child who was abandoned to die in the desert, with no practical appeal possible.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I was addressing Bianca, but your point is well-taken. Still, there is the question of the nature of the judicial system itself - there may be many levels of appeal, but that doesn't ensure the correct decision. North American systems even have difficulties since they're based on adversarial approaches: the prosecution attempts to prove guilt while the defence attempts to confound that. Neither side looks for the truth; the system presumes it will arise out of the oppositional arguments. It doesn't, and so we have wrongful convictions that may take decades to undo, if they are undone. With capital punishment, any uncovering of wrongful conviction becomes a moot point.
I have no sympathy for those who actually do commit such a crime, but I do want to be sure I don't become like them. But then, I think life imprisonment, without luxuries, would be an acceptable punishment; unfortunately our "life sentences" all too often last less than 25 years. I'm no more in favour of "freeing the guilty" than I am of "imprisoning the innocent."

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

And vigilantes always rush to their judgement. Ask American Blacks what they think of vigilante justice. The court system may fare no better; take a look at all the wrongful convictions that have been uncovered in recent years.
I'm sympathetic to your feelings on such criminal acts, but I've too often seen the innocent convicted to accept quick judgements of guilt.
Public execution may seem to offer some deterrence, but a look at the record shows it never has.

What happened to American Blacks wasn't vigilante 'Justice' IMO. I'm talking about situations where there is no doubt to guilt, such as this case or many other's.

I'm wondering, if there's no chance of deterance or rehabilitation why the hell are they ever let out of prison. Sure someone could bring up the facts on repeat offenders.

Not bad enough they brutalized children in the first place. Let's let them out so they can do it again.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Good idea, Bianca. Rehabilitation is overwhelmingly a farce. It might be appropriate to let a sentence stand rather than always reduce it.
The variable sentence, by the way, was introduced on the basis of work by Caesare Lombroso in the 19th Century. He believed that there were two kinds of criminals: ggod people who occasionally did bad things, and people who were inherently bad. He proposed that it was unfair to punish "good" people to the same extent as "bad" people, and so we have the variable sentence. If you can prove, with a good lawyer, that you're good (read rich and powerful), you should get a sentence at the lower end of the range.
Parole comes under a different rubric, and it tests a convict's ability to convince an appointed board of experts that he's really a good person now. Note, not be a "good" person, but convince someone that he is.
Consider also that the country that is the centre of this thread also beheads people for adultery and premarital sex. And it would award several lashes at best to even the most reserved of the women on Lit. And for most of them, if their husbands, brothers, fathers, uncles, became aware of what they were writing here (and with men!), and murdered them for the dishonor of sexuality, the justice system would praise those men, not punish them.

 

[Boxlicker101]

If these people can't control themselves, how might capital punishment deter them?

You people are pathologically distrustful of government to make any decision, yet you enthusiastically hand it the power of life and death when it comes to the systems of justice.

It's all just blood sport.

It isn't the government who determines guilt or lack of same. It is a jury, 12 private citizens who are chosen by lot. In most places, I believe, the jury also decides on the death sentence or not. The state does no more than carry out the decision of the private citizens who sat on the jury.

Hanging and modern methods of extermination are not bloody, and they are no more sport than killing a mad dog or a man-eating tiger is sport. It's just a matter of the citizenry disposing of a menace to the common welfare.

 

[cloudy]

It isn't the government who determines guilt or lack of same. It is a jury, 12 private citizens who are chosen by lot. In most places, I believe, the jury also decides on the death sentence or not. The state does no more than carry out the decision of the private citizens who sat on the jury.

Hanging and modern methods of extermination are not bloody, and they are no more sport than killing a mad dog or a man-eating tiger is sport. It's just a matter of the citizenry disposing of a menace to the common welfare.

And that jury system works so perfectly that OJ was acquitted.

 

[Boxlicker101]

And that jury system works so perfectly that OJ was acquitted.

Nothing works perfectly, and what goes around comes around. OJ is now in prison in NV and anybody who believes his earlier acquittal and his sentencing this time are not related probably also believes in The Easter Bunny.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Nothing works perfectly, and what goes around comes around. OJ is now in prison in NV and anybody who believes his earlier acquittal and his sentencing this time are not related probably also believes in The Easter Bunny.

http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-animal-044.gif

Is there another option? I'd hate to be seen as naive...but no Easter Bunny!

 

[Huckleman2000]

Nothing works perfectly, and what goes around comes around. OJ is now in prison in NV and anybody who believes his earlier acquittal and his sentencing this time are not related probably also believes in The Easter Bunny.

You're right enough that nothing works perfectly. So, what if he was an innocent man who was executed? What went around wouldn't have a chance to come around then, would it?

 

[cloudy]

You're right enough that nothing works perfectly. So, what if he was an innocent man who was executed? What went around wouldn't have a chance to come around then, would it?

I forget the guy's name (but could probably find it), but an innocent man was executed very recently. His name was cleared after the system killed him.

Yeah, I trust the justice system.

 

[Huckleman2000]

I forget the guy's name (but could probably find it), but an innocent man was executed very recently. His name was cleared after the system killed him.

Yeah, I trust the justice system.

I find it so odd that the same posters who consistently post anti-government screeds that venture well into the realm of paranoia, cheer the loudest when the very same government puts citizens to death. How can they trust so implicitly in executions, when they don't even trust the government to run the DMV?

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

I find it so odd that the same posters who consistently post anti-government screeds that venture well into the realm of paranoia, cheer the loudest when the very same government puts citizens to death. How can they trust so implicitly in executions, when they don't even trust the government to run the DMV?

This thread isn't about 'citizens' it's about a man who raped and killed children and the fact that some of us are grateful that justice was done and wish it could be done for other's like him.

I don't think anyone's mentioned trusting the government 'implicitly' to punish only the guilty. It's a pretty thought, would be a better world if the monsters could be identified easily and done away with. They can't be, and to protect those who may be innocent, the guilty often get away.

Not a system where the good of the many outweighs the good of the few but what can you do.

 

[BrazenFellow]

In relation to the original post:

Good. I do not like Saudi Arabia, I think Shari'a law is an abomination and I will never forget seeing Chechens who hate the Russians with a white-hot intensity cooperating with the Russian-backed Chechen government and fighting against the Islamists who had co-opted their nationalist fight after a couple years under Shari'a, but I hate paedophiles more. Righteous kill. Fucking child molesters.

This also isn't this inhumane; he's being decapitated (the norm) and then his corpse is being displayed. We did exactly the same thing (granted, the last time it happened, it would have been the early 1700s I think) where we'd execute some dipshit and then display his corpse in a gibbet or just leave them hanging in a gibbet to rot, we had quite a few variations. Spending any time in a Saudi prison isn't fun, but... you know the system isn't as lovey-dovey as the Canadian or American systems and thus you try to stay out of it. If you decide to do something that gets you sent in, well then.

As to the current topic with regards to equality of justice and comparisons to Western judicial systems etc, well, it's Saudi Arabia. They're useless bastards, if you think the American or Canadian (and the Canadian one is incredibly incompetent) systems are bad the Saudi - and any other area governed by a theocracy for that matter - system makes it look quite acceptable.

 

[R. Richard]

I find it so odd that the same posters who consistently post anti-government screeds that venture well into the realm of paranoia, cheer the loudest when the very same government puts citizens to death. How can they trust so implicitly in executions, when they don't even trust the government to run the DMV?

If you would be so kind as to cite specific, 'anti-government screeds that venture well into the realm of paranoia' and then also cite the cheers for 'the very same government,' it would help me evaluate your post.

The government involved and the man executed are all Saudi. If you're a Saudi, it's the will of Allah, not the government, who decides your execution. You aren't by any chance criticizing Allah, are you?

 

[DeeZire]

I find it so odd that the same posters who consistently post anti-government screeds that venture well into the realm of paranoia, cheer the loudest when the very same government puts citizens to death. How can they trust so implicitly in executions, when they don't even trust the government to run the DMV?

Because they're basing their opinions on ideology, rather than logic.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I forget the guy's name (but could probably find it), but an innocent man was executed very recently. His name was cleared after the system killed him.

Yeah, I trust the justice system.

This is probably the case you are thinking of:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/1424...nnocent_man_could_turn_tide_on_death_penalty/

 

[Huckleman2000]

If you would be so kind as to cite specific, 'anti-government screeds that venture well into the realm of paranoia' and then also cite the cheers for 'the very same government,' it would help me evaluate your post.

The government involved and the man executed are all Saudi. If you're a Saudi, it's the will of Allah, not the government, who decides your execution. You aren't by any chance criticizing Allah, are you?

So, are you baiting for capital punishment, Libertarianism, or anti-Islam bigotry? Make up your mind, troll.

 

[cloudy]

This is probably the case you are thinking of:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/1424...nnocent_man_could_turn_tide_on_death_penalty/

Yep, that's it.

Perfect example of why I don't believe in the death penalty. If it results in even one innocent person dying, then it's wrong. Period.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
This is probably the case you are thinking of:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/14248...death_penalty/

Yep, that's it.

Perfect example of why I don't believe in the death penalty. If it results in even one innocent person dying, then it's wrong. Period.

From reading over the article and others, it's quite obvious that the publication is biased against the death penalty. They also claim they have "proof" but they don't. They have an anonymous "expert" who may or may not be qualified. They don't say. The expert who testified at the trial may be much more qualified than the one who is unnamed. They also mention somebody changing testimony, but give no details.

Since I know nothing about the original case, I don't have an opinion, one way or another. I will say, though, that you probably don't know much about it either.

 

[trysail]

Yep, that's it.

Perfect example of why I don't believe in the death penalty. If it results in even one innocent person dying, then it's wrong. Period.

Ummm, how 'bout if it prevents one innocent person from dying?

How 'bout if you happen to be that one particular innocent person who is saved from dying at the hands of a terrorist/serial killer/rapist?

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Ummm, how 'bout if it prevents one innocent person from dying?

How 'bout if you happen to be that one particular innocent person who is saved from dying at the hands of a terrorist/serial killer/rapist?

How about if you're the innocent person who gets convicted and executed for a crime you didn't commit?

 

[cloudy]

Ummm, how 'bout if it prevents one innocent person from dying?

How 'bout if you happen to be that one particular innocent person who is saved from dying at the hands of a terrorist/serial killer/rapist?

You could just as easily prevent your hypothetical innocent person from dying by imposing a sentence of life without parole. The death penalty isn't justice, its vengeance.

All you Christian types ever read a verse that says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."?

Romans 12:19-21 Just in case.

 

[trysail]

Ummm, how 'bout if it prevents one innocent person from dying?

How 'bout if you happen to be that one particular innocent person who is saved from dying at the hands of a terrorist/serial killer/rapist?

How about if you're the innocent person who gets convicted and executed for a crime you didn't commit?

These are obvious rhetorical questions. If I didn't ask it, someone else would have/should have. I'll tell you one thing, though, I really don't want to worry about being murdered by a sociopath— that's ( theoretically ) government's problem.

 

[trysail]

You could just as easily prevent your hypothetical innocent person from dying by imposing a sentence of life without parole. The death penalty isn't justice, its vengeance.

All you Christian types ever read a verse that says, "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord"?

As long as you're willing to foot the bill. The argument could just as easily be made that the death penalty is a prophylactic.

Eh? "Christian types?" Who are you talking to?

 

[Huckleman2000]

As long as you're willing to foot the bill. The argument could just as easily be made that the death penalty is a prophylactic.

Eh? "Christian types?" Who are you talking to?

So, you're looking for the cheapest justice? You're willing to put up with killing some innocent people, as long as it doesn't hit you, personally, too hard in the pocketbook?

What is it you believe in, other than your own money?