NY, the Democrat stronghold, shows the future.

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

What you are saying is that folks' hearts are black and the poor won't be helped unless folks are compelled to help under penalty of law.

I'd hate to be looking in he/she/its moanin' mirror...

 

[Saint Peter]

Lennon didn't leave NYC!!!

fast enough

 

[The_Trouvere]

Well sparky, a careful reading of my post might indicate that what I'm asking for is a rational argument, not based on any religious concept, which gives the right to any individual, or group, the right to forcibly take from one to give to another?

Ishmael

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare [emphasis mine] of the United States."

Article 1, Section 8 of The Constitution of the United States


That clearly reads like an authorization of the welfare state. All taxation takes from some to give to others. It does so forcibly. A government cannot operate on voluntary contributions.

 

[Sharon_]

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare [emphasis mine] of the United States."

Article 1, Section 8 of The Constitution of the United States


That clearly reads like an authorization of the welfare state. All taxation takes from some to give to others. It does so forcibly. A government cannot operate on voluntary contributions.

Um. Last I looked I don't have "property of the US Government" stamped on my forehead thus don't fall under "general welfare of the United States".

YMMV

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Again, you're not looking in the same mirror, or you'd see it...





Heil Speigel!

 

[Ishmael]

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare [emphasis mine] of the United States."

Article 1, Section 8 of The Constitution of the United States


That clearly reads like an authorization of the welfare state. All taxation takes from some to give to others. It does so forcibly. A government cannot operate on voluntary contributions.

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated. ... A wise and frugal government...shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned." --Thomas Jefferson

"I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." --James Madison

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents...." --James Madison

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."
- Benjamin Franklin

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

“When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny.” - Samuel Adams

The 'general welfare' article of the constitution has been so stretched, and mangled, as to be virtually unrecognizable today. The clause has been perverted to justify the impoverishment of some to the benefit of others less industrious.

But you fail to address the issue. I didn't ask you under which perverted clause of the constitution the forcible removal of property from one to give to another is possible. I asked you to provide a rational argument as to why it should even be attempted?

Ishmael

 

[The_Trouvere]

But you fail to address the issue. I didn't ask you under which perverted clause of the constitution the forcible removal of property from one to give to another is possible. I asked you to provide a rational argument as to why it should even be attempted?

Ishmael

There is no point in trying to change your mind. Most Americans want the government to help them get through life. As long as this remains the case the government will, and it will do so consistently with the U.S. Constitution.

 

[off2bed]

I asked you to provide a rational argument as to why it should even be attempted?

Ishmael

They call it Social Justice these days. Or Social Engineering. Marx called it revolution.

 

[unregistered]

 

[off2bed]

There is no point in trying to change your mind. Most Americans want the government to help them get through life. As long as this remains the case the government will, and it will do so consistently with the U.S. Constitution.

Most Americans would probably like to eat ice cream all day and not work. Does that make it right? You can't just throw away the Constitution just because a lot of voters are ignorant and irresponsible. If we do that, no nation will survive.

What about those Americans who don't want government to help them get through life? Why should they be ignored?

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

The truth is closer to most Americans, understranding that religion is under assault, feel the government should be there to help some nebulous unfortunate, but they don't think they should pay for it or have to suffer with it and mostly think they are voting for the former, since they don't understand the press's role as champion of the state, and hence don't understand why they keep getting stuck with the latter...






... which is why government suffers such low approval ratings; Obama's will soon be there too...

We NEED more religion in our public lives and less government.

Signed,
The Community Athiest

 

[The_Trouvere]

What about those Americans who don't want government to help them get through life? Why should they be ignored?

They should not be ignored, but their votes should be counted and compared with the much larger number of votes of the majority.

 

[off2bed]

America's "general welfare" is best served by having as little power in government's hands as possible.

 

[off2bed]

They should not be ignored, but their votes should be counted and compared with the much larger number of votes of the majority.

Like the sheep and two wolves voting on what's for dinner. Nice.

 

[Ishmael]

There is no point in trying to change your mind. Most Americans want the government to help them get through life. As long as this remains the case the government will, and it will do so consistently with the U.S. Constitution.

Which is why the government is going to fail. I suspect that failure will be in the form of a military coup. Regardless of the form of what replaces the current constitution, it will be a tyranny and in that respect will make little difference overall. The people will be left with the freedom to fuck whoever they please, and that's going to be about the sum of the freedoms except for the elite, and there will be an elite. Different names to be sure, but like the poor, they'll always be with us. The only difference being is that they'll still be enjoying the benefits of a great deal of liberty while the rest of the population is assigned various tasks. Jobs you won't be able to quit even if you wanted to.

We are now at the point where you can't take advantage of public transportation without "Papers Please." We are only one step away from that same principle being applied to private transportation. Rather than inconvenince (restrict) the few, we've decided to inconvenience (restrict) everyone.

Marvelous.

And I have to assume that you've abandoned the discussion because you have no rational argument to offer.

Ishmael

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

They should not be ignored, but their votes should be counted and compared with the much larger number of votes of the majority.

The problem is, in these State where we are in the majority, we have the Majority in the bigger States thrusting their failed way of life upon us and thus we resent, even hate them at times and their federal government too!

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Elite = Caroline Kennedy






Case in point.

 

[off2bed]

I think it'll be secession of some states, rather than a military coup.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Which is why the government is going to fail. I suspect that failure will be in the form of a military coup. Regardless of the form of what replaces the current constitution, it will be a tyranny and in that respect will make little difference overall. The people will be left with the freedom to fuck whoever they please, and that's going to be about the sum of the freedoms except for the elite, and there will be an elite. Different names to be sure, but like the poor, they'll always be with us. The only difference being is that they'll still be enjoying the benefits of a great deal of liberty while the rest of the population is assigned various tasks. Jobs you won't be able to quit even if you wanted to.

We are now at the point where you can't take advantage of public transportation without "Papers Please." We are only one step away from that same principle being applied to private transportation. Rather than inconvenince (restrict) the few, we've decided to inconvenience (restrict) everyone.

Marvelous.

And I have to assume that you've abandoned the discussion because you have no rational argument to offer.

Ishmael

Do you think that is a rational argument? It is nothing but paranoid delusions.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Strong Man; Hugo Chavez model as per Alinsky, from within and with the accolades of the Elite and its fawning press...






Bread and circuses...

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Do you think that is a rational argument? It is nothing but paranoid delusions.

Do you think this is a rational reply? It's nothing but ad hominem...

 

[Sharon_]

The problem is, in these State where we are in the majority, we have the Majority in the bigger States thrusting their failed way of life upon us and thus we resent, even hate them at times and their federal government too!

Detroit bailout case in point.

Kentuckians here at the Toyota factory are doing just fine...until the feds give their competitors billions of dollars thus stabbing my entire state right in the back.

...and the irony of ironies: they're making us borrow the money to pay for the knife they stab us with.

[count me in as one who does *not* want government to help me thru life, I want government *out* of my life]

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

AMEN and pass the plate Sistah Sharon_...






I want to make CHANGE.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I find it amazing that the 'intelligentsia' will defend Darwin tooth and nail until those very same natural rules are applied to their own species. If you are an animal, derived from animals, and destined to be returned to dust, what justification can be applied to demand that society as a whole be required to take responsibility for those animals not of their own immediate family? The only arguments I know of for that particular activity are based in religious belief and we all know that religion is nothing more than a crutch invented by mere animals.

Ishmael

FYI, not all systems of ethics are based on divine revelation.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

FYI, not all systems of ethics are based on divine revelation.

You forgot "Neo-CONfucius says..."