NY, the Democrat stronghold, shows the future.

[Sharon_]

Both of those statements are untrue.

I, too, have noticed he's not real big on that whole "facts" thing.

I doona thin it means what he thin it means.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Americans down on the U.S. health-care system Dutch rate theirs most favorably of 10

As far as socialized medicine is concerned, all of the systems you are holding up as models are falling flat on their ass now. They don't work because they are built on the same premise as Social Security. Just another Ponzi scheme.

Ishmael

"SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- International comparisons of health-care systems can be tricky to tease out, but the Dutch appear most satisfied with their system and Americans the least satisfied, according to a new survey of 10 industrialized countries.
The Dutch system was most popular with its citizens while adults in the U.S. were itching for national reform the most, according to Harris Interactive, which cited three separate data sets."

marketwatch

 

[pigdog1977]

Unfortunately and sadly and undeniably true. It's the lower classes that need thinking about right now, but I don't recall Obama (nor any other candidate, Dem or Pub or third-party) saying much about them this election cycle.

Democrats=Champions of the lower class that is a drain on the public welfare system.

If you promise entitlements to people who'd rather do nothing and have no skills to do so if they wanted to, you get votes.

We do need to think about the lower classes right now. We should think about how much of a drain they are on govt. money. They put the least amount into the pot, yet get the biggest share of the soup.

M

 

[Sharon_]

"SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- International comparisons of health-care systems can be tricky to tease out, but the Dutch appear most satisfied with their system and Americans the least satisfied, according to a new survey of 10 industrialized countries.
The Dutch system was most popular with its citizens while adults in the U.S. were itching for national reform the most, according to Harris Interactive, which cited three separate data sets."

marketwatch

desire for reform != desire for nationalized healthcare

I desire reform--the insurance companies are ripping us off big time.
I do not desire nationalized healthcare...Congress as a group are incompetent at managing a dog kennel, let alone anything important like healthcare.


so...you failed to refute his point

 

[Sharon_]

Democrats=Champions of the lower class that is a drain on the public welfare system.

If you promise entitlements to people who'd rather do nothing and have no skills to do so if they wanted to, you get votes.

<sigh>
And again: not from them, because most of them don't vote.

We do need to think about the lower classes right now. We should think about how much of a drain they are on govt. money. They put the least amount into the pot, yet get the biggest share of the soup.
M

My state: If you get child support, you don't get welfare.

5 year lifetime cap on welfare, which I personally don't think is fair since they don't enforce child support orders. Fifteen years ago, daycare was about $100/week/child and minimum wage was about $3.45...tell me how a custodial parent with no skills is supposed to pay for child care *and* a roof making minimum wage.

So...one idea is to train them so they make more than minimum wage...but again, you have the child care issue. Most providers don't have care after 6pm, so how can a parent work full time, pay for child care, pay for a roof and then go to school in the evenings when no child care is available?

My solution is not my state's....when they /do/ hunt the deadbeats down, they throw them in jail and yank their driver's license. We don't have much public transportation if any, and they can't make money sitting in jail *and* it costs us an additional $120/day to house them.

I say stick their butts to work like the Class D felons....only pay them minimum wage and deduct their child support from that.

 

[Borscht]

I've often wondered about that. Back in the 80's a shit-load of, mostly white, well paid union factory workers in my home town voted en masse (and against their economic interest) for Reagan. I've never been able to fathom what they could have been thinking... but I bet their retirement isn't what they imagined that it would be during those 30 hellish years on the production line.

Maybe they voted for the good of the country instead of for their own narrow self interest.

 

[pigdog1977]

<sigh>
And again: not from them, because most of them don't vote.

The ones I know, do.

<
My state: If you get child support, you don't get welfare.

In my state (NY), child support doesn't matter (unless it goes over the max income threshold).

<
5 year lifetime cap on welfare, which I personally don't think is fair since they don't enforce child support orders. Fifteen years ago, daycare was about $100/week/child and minimum wage was about $3.45...tell me how a custodial parent with no skills is supposed to pay for child care *and* a roof making minimum wage.

Easily. Don't have kids. I can't afford them. I don't have any.

<
So...one idea is to train them so they make more than minimum wage...

And use the money that I earn to do it...

My wife has no college, no training, yet makes $12/hr as a housekeeper for the same hotel I work for. Why? Because she does her job, doesn't call in sick every week and shows up when they ask her to.

Trouble is, folks don't want to clean toilets when they can sit at home and collect.

<
but again, you have the child care issue. Most providers don't have care after 6pm, so how can a parent work full time, pay for child care, pay for a roof and then go to school in the evenings when no child care is available?

Easy. Don't get pregnant when you're single. Have enough marketability (work-wise) so that one of you can stay home and avoid child-care costs. Don't live beyond your means.



Welfare is a broad term. In my area, the economy sucks. I work a seasonal job, make less than $21k/year, no benefits. But I've managed to buy a house, have cable TV, care for 3 dogs and 3 cats, and keep me in $ for my hobby. I had to retire from my chosen profession, making 2-3x as much, because of health issues. What did I do? I left where I lived (AK) because it was too expensive to live at a lower income.

But folks here cry poverty, get Medicaid to pay for their doctor bills, never take overtime (1.5x) when offered, leave work early every chance they get, but dammit they always have beer and cigarette money...

If you think about it, I'd benefit quite well from socialist govt, but I vote Republican (or CCNY if it's on the ballot) because of moral/social issues as well as 2nd amendment issues.

M

 

[The_Trouvere]

Maybe they voted for the good of the country instead of for their own narrow self interest.

Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt. How was that good for the country?

 

[pigdog1977]

Maybe they voted for the good of the country instead of for their own narrow self interest.

Amazing concept...

M

 

[incubus666]

I say stick their butts to work like the Class D felons....only pay them minimum wage and deduct their child support from that.

Thankfully some understands what the system SHOULD work like.
What I would like to see is perhaps free evening care for people who are trying to improve themselves and their living conditions. I also advocate reduced tuition on the same basis. Perhaps the tuition could be a no interest loan to be paid back over say 10 years after getting into the workforce. I firmly believe in a hand up. I am just as firmly opposed to hand outs. There are some who are disabled and need the help. I do not believe if you are a junky or a drunk my tax dollars should be used to enable you and your problem.

As far as people voting for "Republican thinking they are going to automatically get rich.

That may be true and I to some extent blame the public school system most of us went to. I never had a single required or elective H.S. course available concerning finance. How and why to save money. What the stock market is and how it works. Compound interest and how it works for you and against you. (Think credit cards)

Things are a little different now. My Ex wife worked for Motorola for about maybe 15 years. She had a 401k which she contributed the max into. When she quit she had over $100K which we never missed as we made the deposits.

I learned about the stock market because I had to . In the very late '70s I had a bunch of money, Not much by todays standards but a lot then, and I bought a some stock. I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I had over 2 years salary invested in something I didn't understand. So I went to the library and started reading. It really wasn't hard. More learning the buzz words at least at the time. Then I started trading slowly. I say trading and what I really mean is investing in companies that I understood. The mail man on the ship hated me I used to get bundled of prospectus all the time.

I learned about diversification, about dividends, cash flows, cash on hand, free cash flows, DRIPs, etc.
I wasn't perfect. I lost some but the winners were better then the losers.

Were I the Secretary of HEW. I would require every HS freshman. to take a course in finance. To understand compound interest. That when you buy stocks are and that when you buy them you are buying a piece of a company. They would be required to maintane a portfolio of stocks and any trades they would make for the next 3 years. Then in their last year explain their trades and why their portfolio had ether gained or lost over the years. Final grade based not on how their portfolios performed but, on what their reasons were for the trades they made.

My point is most of today's HS graduates are financial illiterates. It is not just HS grads ether. I have read stories about college grads with $80+ in student loans when the jobs they are qualified for pay $30K. One Had a MA in music and he owed $125K in student loans ant the best job he could get payed about $45K.

Should you think me wrong. Assume $5,000 credit card debt, 15% intrest rate, 2.5% min payment. How long will it take you to pay the card off and how much interest will you pay?

Don't look it up, answers off the top of your head.

 

[KingOrfeo]

We do need to think about the lower classes right now. We should think about how much of a drain they are on govt. money.

About 1% of the budget.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Maybe they voted for the good of the country instead of for their own narrow self interest.

"Narrow self interest"? We're talking about the heart and hands and and backbone of American society here. How can what is bad for these millions of factory workers Hooper_X is talking about possibly be good for the country? They are the country.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Maybe they voted for the good of the country instead of for their own narrow self interest.

The rich voted for their "narrow self interest." In addition to tax cuts they got a government that weakened labor unions and opposed leftist governments that might have nationalized their overseas holdings.

 

[incubus666]

I, too, have noticed he's not real big on that whole "facts" thing.

I doona thin it means what he thin it means.

You are correct. Most will ether not read the facts or ignore them because the facts do not agree with their preconceived ideas.

A simple fact from the study. The average poor in America have a better standard of living then the average, not poor but average, citizen of Paris, London, Vienna, Athens and other cities in Europe. .

 

[incubus666]

The facts have all been posted before. Even the stats on charitable giving in the country. Even how the US stacks up against the rest of the world when it comes to charity. All to no avail. Idiots, like the one you're posting to, are driven by 'feelings' and 'beliefs', fuck the facts.

Ishmael

Ish you are absolutely correct. I have posted these same bits of information on probably half a dozen threads. I usually get ignored or kill the thread. The "left" seem to be a lot less interested in facts then any idea that supports their position..

Another thing that seems to ignore reality is the fact people move both up and down in the IRS quartiles. Most peoples income is not static. That and the quintiles move up and also it tune with the economy.

So why do the number of poor seem to increase every year. Think about it this way. Every year we graduate more youngsters out of HS and into the economy. Many will have part time jobs. When their income meets certain levels they must file an IRS return. Even though mommy and daddy are paying their collage costs. Perhaps several thousnd dollars a year. Still by IRS standards they are poor.

Say a couple of years later they get a better job because of their education to date. because of their college load they may work fewer hours. They are still poor. When they graduate and get a job making entry pay say $30K. Now they are no longer poor. But, in the mean time there have been 4 more classes of kids who have graduated into the economy as poor. Some of course will not have jobs so they kinda fall off the charts.

Now our hero/heroine climbs the ladder. Making more money almost annually until he/she is in the upper quintile. The economy takes a down turn and our person gets layed off. He/she cant get a job for a year. Down a couple of quintiles. Our hero/heroine takes a job but it does not pay as much as their previous job but, now thy have moved up a quintile. Then our friend retires and the income decreases perhaps a quintile or even two.

The whole point of this exercise is that very few stay in the upper forever and many grow into the upper and drop down.

The same is true of the lower quintile. In the U.S. the key seems to be education. The more education one has the more likely one is to move into the higher income brackets. Still education is no guarantee. I saw a NYTimes article from a few years ago. It showed from their studies. 1% of those with only a HS degree moved onto the upper quintil. The study also showed 1% of those with Phd.s dropped in to the lower quintile.

The numbers are not static nore are the quintile numbers themselves.

For those who may be interested you may wish to read "Economic Facts and Fallacies" by Thomas Sewell Phd. Economics. For those who may not be able to purchase the book I suggest you local library. The library is payed for by taxes which I whole heartedly support.

So Ish I'm obviously trying to kill the thread.

Ish I knw I have said something about your attemots in the past to instruct some of those on this board and you said it was necessary. Tonight I agree with you. You just gotta try to larn 'em no matter how much they don wanna larn.

My wife just told me to get off the political threads and read some porn.

So off to porn I go, off to porn I go.

 

[tmleadr03]

Ish you are absolutely correct. I have posted these same bits of information on probably half a dozen threads. I usually get ignored or kill the thread. The "left" seem to be a lot less interested in facts then any idea that supports their position..

Another thing that seems to ignore reality is the fact people move both up and down in the IRS quartiles. Most peoples income is not static. That and the quintiles move up and also it tune with the economy.

So why do the number of poor seem to increase every year. Think about it this way. Every year we graduate more youngsters out of HS and into the economy. Many will have part time jobs. When their income meets certain levels they must file an IRS return. Even though mommy and daddy are paying their collage costs. Perhaps several thousnd dollars a year. Still by IRS standards they are poor.

Say a couple of years later they get a better job because of their education to date. because of their college load they may work fewer hours. They are still poor. When they graduate and get a job making entry pay say $30K. Now they are no longer poor. But, in the mean time there have been 4 more classes of kids who have graduated into the economy as poor. Some of course will not have jobs so they kinda fall off the charts.

Now our hero/heroine climbs the ladder. Making more money almost annually until he/she is in the upper quintile. The economy takes a down turn and our person gets layed off. He/she cant get a job for a year. Down a couple of quintiles. Our hero/heroine takes a job but it does not pay as much as their previous job but, now thy have moved up a quintile. Then our friend retires and the income decreases perhaps a quintile or even two.

The whole point of this exercise is that very few stay in the upper forever and many grow into the upper and drop down.

The same is true of the lower quintile. In the U.S. the key seems to be education. The more education one has the more likely one is to move into the higher income brackets. Still education is no guarantee. I saw a NYTimes article from a few years ago. It showed from their studies. 1% of those with only a HS degree moved onto the upper quintil. The study also showed 1% of those with Phd.s dropped in to the lower quintile.

The numbers are not static nore are the quintile numbers themselves.

For those who may be interested you may wish to read "Economic Facts and Fallacies" by Thomas Sewell Phd. Economics. For those who may not be able to purchase the book I suggest you local library. The library is payed for by taxes which I whole heartedly support.

So Ish I'm obviously trying to kill the thread.

Ish I knw I have said something about your attemots in the past to instruct some of those on this board and you said it was necessary. Tonight I agree with you. You just gotta try to larn 'em no matter how much they don wanna larn.

My wife just told me to get off the political threads and read some porn.

So off to porn I go, off to porn I go.

Facts are useless. All you have to do is FEEL the issues and you will know what is right.



This is probably going to be my next read:http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economi...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229647434&sr=8-1

I have already read Economic Facts and Fallacies. Very good, and very well written.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

When, and how did Barack Obama say he would not follow the Constitution?

I suggest you search on "constitution" in this forum because he is on record discussing this very issue about how he felt the Supreme Court has abdicated responsibility by not legislating socia policyl from the bench...

When he raises his hand and promises to protect and defend the Constitution, he will be lying. Like lavy, he's a one-worlder and thinks Kenyan law should be considered equally valid because great thinkers can be found under all sorts of rocks, like William Ayers...



King OH! If upward mobility is a myth how the fuck did slick Willie and now Obama get fucking rich?

Inheritance? Idiot...

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

The facts have all been posted before. Even the stats on charitable giving in the country. Even how the US stacks up against the rest of the world when it comes to charity. All to no avail. Idiots, like the one you're posting to, are driven by 'feelings' and 'beliefs', fuck the facts.

Ishmael

I've noticed that with this particular poster (KO too), you get the same response as with lavy, when you prove her wrong, or show her some facts, she leaves the discussion, but a week later, will come in and say the same damned dumbass thing, and no matter how many individual examples you provide to say this blanket statement is not true, they say, "Oh, but you know that's not true for "everybody" and I'm talking about "everybody" not you A_J; I don't give a fuck that you overcame race, drugs, abuse, and alchohol to make yourself rich, because you're a liar because you voted for Bush and against Obama..."

I voted agaist Obama because I didn't want Bush III. I lost...

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

The rich voted for their "narrow self interest." ...

AND THE POOR DIDN'T???

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

"SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- International comparisons of health-care systems can be tricky to tease out, but the Dutch appear most satisfied with their system and Americans the least satisfied, according to a new survey of 10 industrialized countries.
The Dutch system was most popular with its citizens while adults in the U.S. were itching for national reform the most, according to Harris Interactive, which cited three separate data sets."

marketwatch

There might be a very real reason the Dutch have lower expectations that are easier to meet since even our Founding Fathers banged on their attempts at Government as far back as Federalsit...

 

[The_Trouvere]

AND THE POOR DIDN'T???

Poor whites who vote Republican do not vote for their narrow self interest.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Poor whites who vote Republican do not vote for their narrow self interest.

Are you trying to tell me that when you go to the poll, you're voting for someone else's best interest?





When we voted Democrat for our Sheriff, it was 'cause he was kin...

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Let me tell you about the Bootheel, for just a second, a place where you can find all color of poor, white, black, charles...,





They have ONE thing in common. Their church. Oh, they're all sorts of denominations, but the main one is poor, but they are still rich with family and a bountiful land where they can eke out a living, for the most part. Here is what they want from their government: go away.

Leave me alone, especially Washington DC. These people won't even consider the notion of zoning. They want to be left alone to live and worship in private but the social crusaders for the state will simply not let them be nor tolorate their way of life while they are forced to endure having all sorts of monkey-crap thrown in their face by "a man with a gun in his hand."

Eventually, these people ARE going to start shooting and they are 90% of your national defense grid...

I was raised by crackers just like these.

Onward Christian Soldiers!
Marching on to War! (and yes, the put exclaimation marks at the end of every line because they mean it dumbass!)
With the Cross of Jesus!
Going off to War!

 

[tmleadr03]

Poor whites who vote Republican do not vote for their narrow self interest.

Didn't you say that the poor white Republicans are snookered into believing in upward mobility and that they believe the Republican party will help them in that. So when they vote for Republicans are they not voting for their upward mobility, in other words, for their narrow self interest?

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Let me tell you about the Bootheel, for just a second, a place where you can find all color of poor, white, black, charles...,





They have ONE thing in common. Their church. Oh, they're all sorts of denominations, but the main one is poor, but they are still rich with family and a bountiful land where they can eke out a living, for the most part. Here is what they want from their government: go away.

Leave me alone, especially Washington DC. These people won't even consider the notion of zoning. They want to be left alone to live and worship in private but the social crusaders for the state will simply not let them be nor tolorate their way of life while they are forced to endure having all sorts of monkey-crap thrown in their face by "a man with a gun in his hand."

Eventually, these people ARE going to start shooting and they are 90% of your national defense grid...

I was raised by crackers just like these.

Onward Christian Soldiers!
Marching on to War! (and yes, the put exclaimation marks at the end of every line because they mean it dumbass!)
With the Cross of Jesus!
Going off to War!

It shows, it really does.

The self-loathing is almost palpable every time you start talking about "homos". It's funny to listen to a self described atheist and "not Republican" constantly spewing the ideology of both Republicans and Christians.

You're just a huge fucking parody of yourself.