Zeb_Carter
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What's stopping you?flavortang said:
On Fascism: For Your Consideration.
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Zeb_Carter
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Oh Rob...I don't really have a card. It's a figure of speech. I am a member of the Libertarian party or should I say I contribute a sum of money each year to the party so they can get the word out. I hold with all the planks of the party except two. That is National Defense and Border Control. I believe they are to lax in their policies on both.rgraham666 said:How can you be a Libertarian and have a card saying so? Isn't the point of libertarianism that you are an individual unattached to any group, completely free of outside influences?
Anyway Libertarianism is just anarchy remarketed with a catchy new product name. Anarchy, like rapeseed, can't be used any more because of bad connotations. So it was renamed libertarianism because who can be against liberty?
As far as politics goes I use Jefferson to divide the various facets of it up. There are "those who distrust the people and so seek to gather all power to themselves. And those who trust the people and regard them as the most honest, if not always the most wise protectors of the body politic."
He was talking about white men with money and/or land of course, but the idea holds as far as I'm concerened.
Pure
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Follow up on al Arian.
Al Arian was arrested and faced 51 charges related to terrorism. He eventually pleaded guilty to one, in a plea bargain, and agreed to be deported. It certainly appears the the US gov went 'all out,' in this prosecution, and, as is the case with so many prosecutions of 'terrorist conspirators', most of the case did not fly, and most charges vanished
(See the Padilla case.)
[from the Wikipedia article]
Arrest
On February 20, 2003, the FBI arrested Al-Arian after indicting him and seven others on 50 charges including some related to terrorism. United States Attorney General John Ashcroft alleged at a press conference that Al-Arian was the North American head of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), and the secretary of the PIJ's international organization. His trial was set for May 16, 2005. Al-Arian's lawyers stated that the delay between arrest and trial constitutes a violation of Al-Arian's right under the United States Constitution to a speedy trial. In response, Judge James Moody cited what he believed to be the complexity and uniqueness of the case as reasons for setting the trial in 2005.
On February 26, Genshaft announced that Al-Arian had been fired on the basis that his non-academic activities created a conflict of interest with the university. Allegations from his indictment were also cited.
Trial
Al-Arian's Federal District Court trial in Tampa commenced in June, 2005. He was tried along with Ghassan Ballut, Hatim Fariz and Sameeh Hammoudeh.[6] At trial, FBI agent Kerry Myers testified that the Palestinian Islamic Jihad had planned an attack inside the United States but said all information about the plot was classified and he could not discuss it.[6] Under cross-examination, Myers admitted that Palestinian Islamic Jihad had never carried out an attack outside Israel and the "occupied territories."[6]
Agent Myers also testified that during its 10-year investigation of Al-Arian and his three co-defendants, the FBI intercepted 472,239 telephone calls on 18 tapped lines but none involved any discussion of an attack against the United States or show advanced knowledge of any attacks in the Middle East.[6] Furthermore, the conversations occurred before Palestinian Islamic Jihad was designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization in 1995.[7][8]
The six-month trial featured more than 80 witnesses and 400 transcripts of intercepted phone conversations and faxes.[7] At the end of the prosecution's case, Al-Arian's attorneys rested without offering a defense.[7] On December 6, 2005, after 13 days of deliberations, the jury acquitted him on eight of 17 counts, while remaining deadlocked 10-2 in favor of acquittal on the other nine.[7] Of fifty-one charges against the four men, not one resulted in a conviction; Ballut and Hammoudeh were acquitted on all charges.[7]
Plea agreement
On March 2, 2006, Al-Arian pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy "to make or receive contributions of funds, goods or services to or for the benefit of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a Specially Designated Terrorist [sic], in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371."[3] In return, the U.S. Attorney agreed to dismiss the other eight remaining charges in the superseding indictment, agreed not to charge Al-Arian with any other crimes, entered no recommendation of a fine, and recommended "that the defendant receive a sentence at the low end of the applicable guideline."[4] As part of the deal, Al-Arian agreed to expedited deportation.[5] The plea agreement was unsealed and accepted by Judge James S. Moody on April 17, 2006.[6] Al-Arian's sentencing was scheduled for May 1, 2006.[7] Al-Arian remained in custody pending his sentencing and deportation.
The deal came after 11 years of FBI investigations, wiretaps and searches, three years of trial preparation by federal prosecutors and a six-month trial, during which time Al-Arian has spent more than three years in jail, most of it in solitary confinement.[8] Amnesty International said Al-Arian's pre-trial detention conditions "appeared to be 'gratuitously punitive' " and stated "the restrictions imposed on Dr Al-Arian appeared to go beyond what were necessary on security grounds and were inconsistent with international standards for humane treatment."[9]
At the plea agreement hearing, U.S. Magistrate Thomas B. McCoun said, "... if you're satisfied you're guilty or you believe it's in your best interest to plead guilty ... let me know that." Al-Arian replied, "I believe it's in my best interest to enter a plea."[9]
Al-Arian admitted that he raised money for the Islamic Jihad and conspired to hide the identities of other members of the terrorist organization, including his brother-in-law, Mazen Al-Najjar. He also admitted knowing "that the PIJ achieved its objectives by, among other means, acts of violence." [10]
For its part, the government acknowledged that Al-Arian's activities were non-violent and that there were no victims to the charge in the plea agreement. Later that day, supporters of Al-Arian stated that the agreement was reached in part to end the suffering of the family and to reunite them in freedom.[10][10][11]
Sentencing
U.S. District Judge James Moody sentenced al-Arian to the maximum 57 months in prison and gave him credit for time served. He will serve the balance of 19 months and then be deported, prosecutors said. In his ruling, Moody harshly criticized al-Arian for doing nothing to stop bombings perpetrated by Islamic Jihad. "You lifted not one finger. To the contrary, you laughed when you heard of the bombings," he said. "You are a master manipulator. The evidence is clear in this case. You were a leader of the PIJ." [11]
Al Arian was arrested and faced 51 charges related to terrorism. He eventually pleaded guilty to one, in a plea bargain, and agreed to be deported. It certainly appears the the US gov went 'all out,' in this prosecution, and, as is the case with so many prosecutions of 'terrorist conspirators', most of the case did not fly, and most charges vanished
(See the Padilla case.)
[from the Wikipedia article]
Arrest
On February 20, 2003, the FBI arrested Al-Arian after indicting him and seven others on 50 charges including some related to terrorism. United States Attorney General John Ashcroft alleged at a press conference that Al-Arian was the North American head of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), and the secretary of the PIJ's international organization. His trial was set for May 16, 2005. Al-Arian's lawyers stated that the delay between arrest and trial constitutes a violation of Al-Arian's right under the United States Constitution to a speedy trial. In response, Judge James Moody cited what he believed to be the complexity and uniqueness of the case as reasons for setting the trial in 2005.
On February 26, Genshaft announced that Al-Arian had been fired on the basis that his non-academic activities created a conflict of interest with the university. Allegations from his indictment were also cited.
Trial
Al-Arian's Federal District Court trial in Tampa commenced in June, 2005. He was tried along with Ghassan Ballut, Hatim Fariz and Sameeh Hammoudeh.[6] At trial, FBI agent Kerry Myers testified that the Palestinian Islamic Jihad had planned an attack inside the United States but said all information about the plot was classified and he could not discuss it.[6] Under cross-examination, Myers admitted that Palestinian Islamic Jihad had never carried out an attack outside Israel and the "occupied territories."[6]
Agent Myers also testified that during its 10-year investigation of Al-Arian and his three co-defendants, the FBI intercepted 472,239 telephone calls on 18 tapped lines but none involved any discussion of an attack against the United States or show advanced knowledge of any attacks in the Middle East.[6] Furthermore, the conversations occurred before Palestinian Islamic Jihad was designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization in 1995.[7][8]
The six-month trial featured more than 80 witnesses and 400 transcripts of intercepted phone conversations and faxes.[7] At the end of the prosecution's case, Al-Arian's attorneys rested without offering a defense.[7] On December 6, 2005, after 13 days of deliberations, the jury acquitted him on eight of 17 counts, while remaining deadlocked 10-2 in favor of acquittal on the other nine.[7] Of fifty-one charges against the four men, not one resulted in a conviction; Ballut and Hammoudeh were acquitted on all charges.[7]
Plea agreement
On March 2, 2006, Al-Arian pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy "to make or receive contributions of funds, goods or services to or for the benefit of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a Specially Designated Terrorist [sic], in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371."[3] In return, the U.S. Attorney agreed to dismiss the other eight remaining charges in the superseding indictment, agreed not to charge Al-Arian with any other crimes, entered no recommendation of a fine, and recommended "that the defendant receive a sentence at the low end of the applicable guideline."[4] As part of the deal, Al-Arian agreed to expedited deportation.[5] The plea agreement was unsealed and accepted by Judge James S. Moody on April 17, 2006.[6] Al-Arian's sentencing was scheduled for May 1, 2006.[7] Al-Arian remained in custody pending his sentencing and deportation.
The deal came after 11 years of FBI investigations, wiretaps and searches, three years of trial preparation by federal prosecutors and a six-month trial, during which time Al-Arian has spent more than three years in jail, most of it in solitary confinement.[8] Amnesty International said Al-Arian's pre-trial detention conditions "appeared to be 'gratuitously punitive' " and stated "the restrictions imposed on Dr Al-Arian appeared to go beyond what were necessary on security grounds and were inconsistent with international standards for humane treatment."[9]
At the plea agreement hearing, U.S. Magistrate Thomas B. McCoun said, "... if you're satisfied you're guilty or you believe it's in your best interest to plead guilty ... let me know that." Al-Arian replied, "I believe it's in my best interest to enter a plea."[9]
Al-Arian admitted that he raised money for the Islamic Jihad and conspired to hide the identities of other members of the terrorist organization, including his brother-in-law, Mazen Al-Najjar. He also admitted knowing "that the PIJ achieved its objectives by, among other means, acts of violence." [10]
For its part, the government acknowledged that Al-Arian's activities were non-violent and that there were no victims to the charge in the plea agreement. Later that day, supporters of Al-Arian stated that the agreement was reached in part to end the suffering of the family and to reunite them in freedom.[10][10][11]
Sentencing
U.S. District Judge James Moody sentenced al-Arian to the maximum 57 months in prison and gave him credit for time served. He will serve the balance of 19 months and then be deported, prosecutors said. In his ruling, Moody harshly criticized al-Arian for doing nothing to stop bombings perpetrated by Islamic Jihad. "You lifted not one finger. To the contrary, you laughed when you heard of the bombings," he said. "You are a master manipulator. The evidence is clear in this case. You were a leader of the PIJ." [11]
Boxlicker101
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Huckleman2000 said:
I'm all for academic freedom, within certain limits, as well as freedom of speech. I don't see a lot of conflict between them. If Professor A makes a statement, and somebody expresses disagreement, no freedoms have been violated. And, I would hardly describe an expression of disagreement as "harassment".
As for the "Bong Hits" ruling, this involves a teenaged high school student, not a professor. At a school function, he and some others unfurled a banner advocating the use of drugs. Whether you agree with his opinion or not, this is totally contrary to the mission of the school, and he was disclipined. And, lets face it. You know as well as I do what is meant by "bong hits".
As for the corporations, they have a right to lobby and campaign, just as everybody else has. The college Republicans and creationist groups have as much right to advocate their opinions as anybody else. I am inclined to disagree with what they are propounding, pub it we were to stifle their right to dissent, that would put us on the road to Fascism.
flavortang
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Zeb_Carter said:
Nothing. I plan to register as such.
Zeb_Carter
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Go fer it!flavortang said:
Boxlicker101
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Pure said:
I won't respond to this for the same reason I would not respond to a letter from the KKK describing why some races are inferior to the Aryan one. I don't know how much truth there was, or how much truth there would be in the KKK letter, but I suspect there would be some, but that it would have been cherry-picked from a lot of contradictions.
SlickTony
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Stella_Omega said:
I'm beginning to think that it's not outside the realm of possibility that it might. The other day I read an article by Hal Crowther that said that the country was starting to turn and inch leftward; that people were fed up with Republican flimflam, and had realized that the people in power don't even pretend anymore to care about the American people. But they haven't been voted out yet...and when people with such a great, strong love of power see the danger of losing their grip on it, they get desperate.
rgraham666
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Not sure they could pull off a coup though, Tony.
They'd need armed power to do such a thing. I don't believe the Armed Forces would go along with such an action, for the most part.
And the current administration doesn't have its own armed group like the SA of the Nazis or the Blackshirts of Mussolini.
Unless that is what Blackwater is for.
They'd need armed power to do such a thing. I don't believe the Armed Forces would go along with such an action, for the most part.
And the current administration doesn't have its own armed group like the SA of the Nazis or the Blackshirts of Mussolini.
Unless that is what Blackwater is for.
Pure
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well, rg, if you have the CIA,
the CIA blackops, and
Blackwater [and others]
why the 'shirts'?
besides, as you see from my posting yesterday #50, the right wing radio hosts can do lots of dirty work;
then a raft of charges--see the second al arian posting #53-- with the prospect of a zillion years in prison, a plea bargain/deportation agreement.
problem solved. no castor oil needed. (note, however lots of death threats *which help provide a basis for firing*, i.e., al arian's presence made things unsafe at SFU.)
---
PS i think this is the sort of thing lesbia was referring to; also her point that the tactics of fascism, of repression, differ according to situation and historical context.
the CIA blackops, and
Blackwater [and others]
why the 'shirts'?
besides, as you see from my posting yesterday #50, the right wing radio hosts can do lots of dirty work;
then a raft of charges--see the second al arian posting #53-- with the prospect of a zillion years in prison, a plea bargain/deportation agreement.
problem solved. no castor oil needed. (note, however lots of death threats *which help provide a basis for firing*, i.e., al arian's presence made things unsafe at SFU.)
---
PS i think this is the sort of thing lesbia was referring to; also her point that the tactics of fascism, of repression, differ according to situation and historical context.
Last edited:
Boxlicker101
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Pure said:
You know wikipedia is not all tht accurate. People post info there, which may or may not be correct. From your post, this is what he admitted to:
Al-Arian admitted that he raised money for the Islamic Jihad and conspired to hide the identities of other members of the terrorist organization, including his brother-in-law, Mazen Al-Najjar. He also admitted knowing "that the PIJ achieved its objectives by, among other means, acts of violence." [10]
For its part, the government acknowledged that Al-Arian's activities were non-violent and that there were no victims to the charge in the plea agreement. Later that day, supporters of Al-Arian stated that the agreement was reached in part to end the suffering of the family and to reunite them in freedom.[10][10][11]
As for Tariq Ramadan:
A visa to enter the US is supposed to be a privilege, not a right. and can be denied or canceled after certain info comes to light. He admitted to support of a terrorist organization (Hamas) and to expressing hatred of the US. That should be enough. If he dislikes the US so much, why does he want to come here.
Pure
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box,
i've posted a st petersburg newspaper accoutn (see#50) which makes clear that the suspension of al arian was just after his appearance on the O Reilly show.
i find it amazing that a talk show host can get a prof suspended *without a hearing*.
i know you and dick cheney will say everything's fine. go ahead. as someone pointed out, the 'common man' has the unfortunate tendency to 'go along with' fascistic and other authoritarian measures because he's sold on the idea of a threat to the nation.
i've posted a st petersburg newspaper accoutn (see#50) which makes clear that the suspension of al arian was just after his appearance on the O Reilly show.
i find it amazing that a talk show host can get a prof suspended *without a hearing*.
i know you and dick cheney will say everything's fine. go ahead. as someone pointed out, the 'common man' has the unfortunate tendency to 'go along with' fascistic and other authoritarian measures because he's sold on the idea of a threat to the nation.
Boxlicker101
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Pure said:i've posted a st petersburg newspaper accoutn (see#50) which makes clear that the suspension of al arian was just after his appearance on the O Reilly show.
i find it amazing that a talk show host can get a prof suspended *without a hearing*.
i know you and dick cheney will say everything's fine. go ahead. as someone pointed out, the 'common man' has the unfortunate tendency to 'go along with' fascistic and other authoritarian measures because he's sold on the idea of a threat to the nation.
I would find it amazing also. According to the news item,O'Reilly disagreed with the firing.
On his show Wednesday night, Bill O'Reilly criticized Genshaft's decision to fire Al-Arian, calling it "cowardly." Although he said in September that federal agents should follow Al-Arian wherever he goes, O'Reilly said he did not think the professor's alleged terrorist ties were grounds for dismissal.
-- Times staff writers Babita Persaud and Mary Jacoby contributed to this report.
Pure
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O Reilly is a two faced SOB. after saying that Al Arian should be followed by federal agents {as a dangerous person}. after broadcasting alleged evidence of AA's links to terrorism.
it would be interesting to know OR's comments on the trial of AA after the firing, the 51 charges, etc.
it would be interesting to know OR's comments on the trial of AA after the firing, the 51 charges, etc.
lesbiaphrodite
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Orwellian
Though there have been many great writers who have expressed amazing thoughts on totalitarianism and individual liberty, one of my favorites is George Orwell.
"1984" was a book that changed my life. The ideas of that text are as topical now as ever, perhaps more so.
Here are some nice Orwell quotes:
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. "
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. "
"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."
Though there have been many great writers who have expressed amazing thoughts on totalitarianism and individual liberty, one of my favorites is George Orwell.
"1984" was a book that changed my life. The ideas of that text are as topical now as ever, perhaps more so.
Here are some nice Orwell quotes:
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. "
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. "
"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."
thebullet
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I don't believe that people are aware of the magnitude of disaster we are experiencing in America. In the last 30-40 years this country has been, as Ike predicted, taken over by the Military-Industrial Complex.
I, too, have wondered about the likelyhood of the current administration declaring marshal law and cancelling the next election based upon some terrorism-inspired pretext. But even that extreme isn't necessary given the current state of American society.
Our government is in thrall to the corporations, period. Conservative/liberal, Republican/Democrat makes no difference. We cannot correct things using the ballot because the outcome is already fixed. Our politicans are owned by Big Business. Every one of them is a whore - I'm willing to cnsider exceptions but not very willing.
We are stuck in a status civilization, a place where true movement between economic strata is almost impossible. We have an inferior healthcare system yet have been convinced by the powers-that-be that ours is the best system in the world. Our government is unreponsive to the needs of anyone but its corporate sponsers and yet we hear every day that ours is the greatest country in the world.
To me it is beyond bizarre that blue collar America supports right-wing government, the very government that is making their long-term existence miserable.
Mussolini called Fascism the marriage of government and business. What could be a more accurate description of 21st Century America? The goal of business is to maximize profits. The goal of our government is to help business maximize profits. That those profits are being maximized on the backs of the middle class means nothing to business or government.
It has reached the point, our Constitution has become so irrelevent, that we probably cannot dig ourselves out of this mess through normal channels any more.
I, too, have wondered about the likelyhood of the current administration declaring marshal law and cancelling the next election based upon some terrorism-inspired pretext. But even that extreme isn't necessary given the current state of American society.
Our government is in thrall to the corporations, period. Conservative/liberal, Republican/Democrat makes no difference. We cannot correct things using the ballot because the outcome is already fixed. Our politicans are owned by Big Business. Every one of them is a whore - I'm willing to cnsider exceptions but not very willing.
We are stuck in a status civilization, a place where true movement between economic strata is almost impossible. We have an inferior healthcare system yet have been convinced by the powers-that-be that ours is the best system in the world. Our government is unreponsive to the needs of anyone but its corporate sponsers and yet we hear every day that ours is the greatest country in the world.
To me it is beyond bizarre that blue collar America supports right-wing government, the very government that is making their long-term existence miserable.
Mussolini called Fascism the marriage of government and business. What could be a more accurate description of 21st Century America? The goal of business is to maximize profits. The goal of our government is to help business maximize profits. That those profits are being maximized on the backs of the middle class means nothing to business or government.
It has reached the point, our Constitution has become so irrelevent, that we probably cannot dig ourselves out of this mess through normal channels any more.
Pure
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lots of 'blue collar' Germans supported Hitler. what's the problem.
when people are convinced their nation is under mortal peril, they forget their (so called) class interests. likewise for moral perils, like--shudder-- the militant gay agenda. Rove has so far proven himself past master at knowing the buttons to push. I believe someone above quoted Goering to the same effect.
PS. But, the Bullet, i think you're generally right
when people are convinced their nation is under mortal peril, they forget their (so called) class interests. likewise for moral perils, like--shudder-- the militant gay agenda. Rove has so far proven himself past master at knowing the buttons to push. I believe someone above quoted Goering to the same effect.
PS. But, the Bullet, i think you're generally right
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