On Writing: Immersion

[BeechLeaf]

Once you have considered changes based on scores, or possible reaction from readers. You have changed your thought, you have altered the story you set out to tell.

Generally, I agree with you. And I write for myself. I couldn't possibly put in things that are popular to increase my score or views - mother/son or LW. If I eventually write incest, it'll be because that's what I want to explore, not how I want to attract readers. My style is a very niche one, it'll always be low-viewership and never achieve high scores.

However... I disagree with your conflation here of going for scores with merely considering reader reaction. From the get-go, 95% of readers who click on my story will (I hope) quickly find it boring and click out. My story is literary and slow and a bit intellectual - all turn-offs. Good, I've got rid of those unwanted readers. Now, of those who remain, who find the writing interesting enough to continue with, I do want to attract and ensnare them. I want my writing, what I enjoy writing, to also appeal to this secret coterie of readers who enjoy the delicacy and literacy I try to achieve. For them, not for the drooling masses, I consider: what wording would work? what imagery would appeal? At this point, having winnowed out the 95%, I and my readers can cooperate. And I do write with them in mind: of course I have only my own opinions to judge by. It sounds good to me, so I hope a few like-minded people will agree, in part. I want those few to like it, and I try to draw them in.

(This sounds terribly arrogant when I re-read it. Oh wait, I've just worked out the reason why.)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm sorry, but I disagree, not entirely, but with a small part of your statement...
I (and this is only my opinion) Don't believe you can write for yourself, and an audience synchronically.
The very first time you change what you wrote because you considered other people's response to it. You have stopped writing for yourself.
If you have altered what you were about to write because you thought about how it might impact your score... You have stopped writing solely for yourself.
If you are actually writing for an audience, because it pays the bills, then yes. Those things are important.
But, I Do not believe the two can run concurrently...

If you aren't "writing for an audience" why are you bothering to publish it in the first place?

Also, there is a huge difference between considering your audience and worrying about a score.

 

[StillStunned]

Perhaps we should set up Writing Exercises as companions to these "theory" threads. For this one, maybe something like writing the same scene twice: once as immersive as you can, and one to keep the reading experience shallow.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Generally, I agree with you. And I write for myself. I couldn't possibly put in things that are popular to increase my score or views - mother/son or LW. If I eventually write incest, it'll be because that's what I want to explore, not how I want to attract readers. My style is a very niche one, it'll always be low-viewership and never achieve high scores.

I want my stories to be read and I want people to love them. But what I want is for the things that I write purely to amuse myself (or to set myself a challenge) to then be appreciated by others.

I cannot think of a single occasion in which I have thought to myself what would my readers want?* It’s what do I want? What do I find beautiful or funny or even occasionally elegant?

Writing is a complicated and stimulating game to me. One I love and which provides endless entertainment to me. But any success I have had is because the decisions I made for me then resonated with others. Not because I actively planned for them to resonate.

—

* Actualy I started writing Jacob’s Progress with the aim of seeing if I could write a ‘typical’ LW story. But that quickly went out of the window and I was back in the milieu of my normal themes and preoccupations.

 

[EmilyMiller]

once as immersive as you can

What is immersive for one reader will be shallow for another and vice versa.

 

[crookedletter]

I think we're stuck on an issue of semantics. Calling one style of writing "immersive" -- generally considered a good thing, regardless of your style -- by implication is kind of a dig on contrary styles.

Maybe spare vs lyrical?

 

[StillStunned]

What is immersive for one reader will be shallow for another and vice versa.

Obviously. That's why only a fraction of clicks lead to votes, and even fewer lead to comments.

But taking that as a given - i.e. that not everyone will react the same way - we can always show how we go about trying to achieve the effect. Assume your ideal reader, or maybe what style you would find immersive yourself.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

People seem to be misunderstanding the concept of considering the audience. It doesn't mean writing a story that panders to someone, or attempts to check boxes to get a good score.
I'm not just trying to tell a story, I want to have an emotional impact on my readers, I want them to feel the story viscerally. To stop and think about it after they finish reading it.
None of that is possible if you don't consider your audience, how they will react to your word choice, your sentence structure. Will they evoke the reaction you are trying to achieve?

Of course, if you are writing silly little strokers, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, then none of that matters. But let's not pretend that considering the audience somehow compromises one's artistic integrity.

 

[EmilyMiller]

what style you would find immersive yourself.

That I can get behind. I want to love what o write. Others doing so is very validating, but I don’t write for that validation, I write what amuses or moves or delights me.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That I can get behind. I want to love what o write. Others doing so is very validating, but I don’t write for that validation, I write what amuses or moves or delights me.

That's got to be the funniest thing I've ever read on the AH.

 

[crookedletter]

People seem to be misunderstanding the concept of considering the audience. It doesn't mean writing a story that panders to someone, or attempts to check boxes to get a good score.
I'm not just trying to tell a story, I want to have an emotional impact on my readers, I want them to feel the story viscerally. To stop and think about it after they finish reading it.
None of that is possible if you don't consider your audience, how they will react to your word choice, your sentence structure. Will they evoke the reaction you are trying to achieve?

Of course, if you are writing silly little strokers, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, then none of that matters. But let's not pretend that considering the audience somehow compromises one's artistic integrity.

That's all well and good. But while you may be holding in your mind some shadowy idea of a stranger that will be reading your story, I'm just looking at my story and trying to determine if it works for me.

I think that's often what people mean when they say they're writing for themselves. I'm the audience. And when I decide what I've written is working for me, and it's done and I send it out there, I'm hoping that shadowy idea of a stranger will read it and agree.

It's, again, semantics. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I don't think writers considering the audience are compromising their artistic integrity. But there's a frequent knee-jerk reaction around here when someone says they're writing for themselves, as if the very idea is preposterous. It's not preposterous. I've been doing it for years.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think we're stuck on an issue of semantics. Calling one style of writing "immersive" -- generally considered a good thing, regardless of your style -- by implication is kind of a dig on contrary styles.

Merely calling one style something isn't a dig at another style - surely it's just saying, oh, two different styles?

Although this thread, I admit, has fallen into some bullshit theorising with not a great deal of substance. There aren't many examples of what people think is "immersive" and what isn't.

Maybe spare vs lyrical?

Both can be immersive, in terms of engaging an audience.

It's starting to sound like the old porn versus erotica debate, stroker versus literary, etc etc. People are reacting to the discussion as if it's binary, but nothing to do with writing is binary. The notion of immersive plot versus immersive craft is nonsense, frankly. You can't have one without the other.

It's almost as if folk are saying a rainbow is red or it's violet, but forgetting the bits in between.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That's all well and good. But while you may be holding in your mind some shadowy idea of a stranger that will be reading your story, I'm just looking at my story and trying to determine if it works for me.

I think that's often what people mean when they say they're writing for themselves. I'm the audience. And when I decide what I've written is working for me, and it's done and I send it out there, I'm hoping that shadowy idea of a stranger will read it and agree.

It's, again, semantics. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I don't think writers considering the audience are compromising their artistic integrity. But there's a frequent knee-jerk reaction around here when someone says they're writing for themselves, as if the very idea is preposterous. It's not preposterous. I've been doing it for years.

Perhaps the "knee jerk reaction" is a counter to all the "You're just pandering to the audience for your scores" nonsense that gets thrown out by the "i write for myself" crowd.

It isn't a "shadowy idea of a stranger" its not hard to understand a target audience. It is a well accepted concept in the entertainment world.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think that's often what people mean when they say they're writing for themselves. I'm the audience. And when I decide what I've written is working for me, and it's done and I send it out there, I'm hoping that shadowy idea of a stranger will read it and agree.

This

 

[crookedletter]

Perhaps the "knee jerk reaction" is a counter to all the "You're just pandering to the audience for your scores" nonsense that gets thrown out by the "i write for myself" crowd.

It isn't a "shadowy idea of a stranger" its not hard to understand a target audience. It is a well accepted concept in the entertainment world.

Okay, granted: it's not hard to understand a target audience. I've never had an issue understanding when people write with an audience in mind. Nor have I accused anyone -- ever -- of "pandering."

Now it's your turn to return the courtesy and acknowledge that other conceptions of who writers write for, and why, are possible.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Okay, granted: it's not hard to understand a target audience. I've never had an issue understanding when people write with an audience in mind. Nor have I accused anyone -- ever -- of "pandering."

Now it's your turn to return the courtesy and acknowledge that other conceptions of who writers write for, and why, are possible.

And I agree that you can certainly "write for yourself" or write for a variety of reasons. I simply take exception that there is somehow more merit or that it is somehow superior to do so.

 

[anthrodisiac]

I think it's helpful to make a distinction between considering a reader's experience and pandering to an audience. Most of us edit, do we not? We don't just puke out something onto a page and go "Well, good enough for me!" No, we want to craft the story, to make it something we, and hopefully others, want to read. That is what I mean, at least, when I talk about considering a reader's experience.

"Oh, I've used X word way too many times, I should use a different one."
"Does this word make sense in the context it's being used?"
"Am I staying true to the voice I'm trying to cultivate?"
"This is kinda clunky, maybe I can smooth this out a bit more."
"I should probably spell this word right."
"This is pretty repetitive, it's not really adding anything."
"Nah, I think this is a better word for the feeling I'm trying to convey."
And many more besides.

These are all things being done in service of improving the story for someone who's reading the story. Maybe it's just you, that's fine, but you're also trying to give the person reading it a good experience, because a poorly written story with tons of things that make someone stop, have to puzzle over, whatever that may be for that person, simply makes it harder for someone to enjoy the beautiful world you've constructed in your head. If you were simply coming up with a story for purely your own enjoyment, why bother writing it down? There's joy in sharing that with others who may find it and like it. On a site like this, the preponderance of readers will not care for your story, because it doesn't have the elements that they're seeking. This is true in any writing space. Most readers will not read, nor want to read, what you've written. Fewer still will want to do so if it's clunky and constantly making them stop in confusion. There are those who can put that aside in favor of a well-told story, and there are those who can't forgive grammatical mistakes, awkward phrasing, lackluster characters, and any number of things beyond those.

 

[liliput1]

• Parried
• Retorted
• Annunciated
• Intimated
• Divulged

Now that's tricky. I would use two, maybe three of these words in an conversation in a story but not in the narration. And I don't know exactly why that is. Possibly 1) honoring the 5th grade reading level rule and 2) maintaining character voice.

For example:

He divulged that they were sleeping together, shocking no-one.

"You told us you were sleeping with Sarah like you were divulging some big secret. WE KNOW. The walls here are pretty thin, Jacob, and she isn't... quiet."

Might have something to do with context. People can guess what 'divulging' means just from the second example. The first assumes, making an ass out of u and me.

 

[AStrangeDesire]

I think it's helpful to make a distinction between considering a reader's experience and pandering to an audience. <snip>
<snip>

I agree with most of what you said, but wanted to play devil's advocate on a couple of points. Re: the above, I don't know my audience or readers. I've certainly gotten feedback, but that's been varied of course, like everyone's.

When I write, I write what I think is hot. Then, sometimes, I think "If you're going to publish this, mixing up X,Y,Z fetishes or acts will make it hard for people unless they're literally _you_" and I adjust.

Sometimes. Other times, I do whatever the hell I want, because nobody's paying me to do this.

. If you were simply coming up with a story for purely your own enjoyment, why bother writing it down? There's joy in sharing that with others who may find it and like it. On a site like this, the preponderance of readers will not care for your story, because it doesn't have the elements that they're seeking. This is true in any writing space. Most readers will not read, nor want to read, what you've written. <snip>

I literally wrote for years decades with nobody reading it. Just for my own enjoyment. And I kept editing and tweaking my stories, just because I enjoyed re-reading them and wanted to keep improving them.

I'm probably a weirdo--aren't we all?-- but felt like that was a point worth making. Because I wonder if there are other people, similar to myself, who didn't start publishing anything until years after they started writing for themselves.

For completeness, I totally agree on the editing, and the questions and considerations you posed above.

 

[liliput1]

Perhaps we should set up Writing Exercises as companions to these "theory" threads. For this one, maybe something like writing the same scene twice: once as immersive as you can, and one to keep the reading experience shallow.

Could be interesting to write the same prompt with multiple voices, to see how much 'saying the same thing' isn't saying the same thing.

 

[XerXesXu]

. Possibly 1) honoring the 5th grade reading level rule

There's a rule below the 8th Grade rule? It's beyond 8th grade that you write at a literacy level above that of most (American) readers, and your potential readership falls off a cliff.

Who writes porn for 8-year-olds?

 

[anthrodisiac]

I agree with most of what you said, but wanted to play devil's advocate on a couple of points. Re: the above, I don't know my audience or readers. I've certainly gotten feedback, but that's been varied of course, like everyone's.

When I write, I write what I think is hot. Then, sometimes, I think "If you're going to publish this, mixing up X,Y,Z fetishes or acts will make it hard for people unless they're literally _you_" and I adjust.

Sometimes. Other times, I do whatever the hell I want, because nobody's paying me to do this.

I literally wrote for years decades with nobody reading it. Just for my own enjoyment. And I kept editing and tweaking my stories, just because I enjoyed re-reading them and wanted to keep improving them.

I'm probably a weirdo--aren't we all?-- but felt like that was a point worth making. Because I wonder if there are other people, similar to myself, who didn't start publishing anything until years after they started writing for themselves.

For completeness, I totally agree on the editing, and the questions and considerations you posed above.

Reader experience is one of those squishy topics that obviously can vary a lot based on who actually reads a story. But to distinguish it, once again, from knowing your audience, in this case I'm simply talking about how well a story reads for a reader. Making sure not to bore them by saying the same thing over and over again (repetition without purpose), clunky/awkward phrasing, confusing/unclear language, at least mild due diligence to spelling/grammar, things of that nature. These are distinct from the understanding the audience aspect: "Well, the T/I crowd generally likes it more than there's actual blood relation, rather than guardianship, even though both are taboo" or "Non-human prefers tentacle monster content to be TM x female human" or "Romance readers prefer slow burns."

Most of what I've written, I've done in private. I didn't publish anything for more than 10 years after I started writing, I just had ideas and thoughts and wanted to bring them to life. I did it out of compulsion, but also with the eventual desire to publish it some day. A lot of what I did was for the sake of improving my craft, because I know those early stories weren't good enough, that I sucked as a writer, and I didn't want to put out sub-par material. It's a common enough occurance, I think, inasmuch as someone can possibly know how many people don't publish something, but from many of the writers I've spoken with, a good chunk of them have done the same.

 

[NuclearFairy]

I think, immersion for me might look a bit different than for most people.

When I read, I don't hear the words, I see the shape of them, the beats of the tall letters, the short and the low hanging, are they pleasing to the eye? I look for that, I look for a nice rolling flow that will keep me going.

Also, I'm a very visual thinking, when writing I think in scenes, when my characters in my head speak, I feel it in meaning rather than hear it in words. So when I write, I seek to draw out that meaning, to get the outlines of the movements captured.

So, I need to find the right word, sometimes I know that the right word is "jimmy" but while I could remember that word an hour ago, I can't now, because words are hard, so I go searing for it using synonyms until I find that magical word.

I know for most of my readers it won't matter, but for the small handful like me, it does, because once that flow of words has drawn me in, then the meanings of the words start taking shape in my head. At first, it's not even pictures, it's concepts, and outlines, and meanings coming together to form that picture, and then I can see it.

Then I can see that, "Ilana liked to jimmy those locks open. She had no reason to, she just liked it." Too many shorts there, need to fix it. "Ilana liked to jimmy those locks open. She had nary a reason to, she just liked it." The low fixes it, and now that I'm not distracted by the flat line, I can see it, and feel it.

Like I said, most people, don't read like I do, so I've no clue if this'll even connect with anyone.

 

[Cagivagurl]

If you aren't "writing for an audience" why are you bothering to publish it in the first place?

Also, there is a huge difference between considering your audience and worrying about a score.

If you had read my post, you would understand. I am interested in seeing whether others found my story interesting. However, I don't write for them, I write for myself. As I said earlier, I do have an ego, and it is interesting to see if others enjoyed, or hated my story...
I do not post everything I write... I have as many finished but not posted as I do posted... If I am unhappy with the writing, I don't publish...

 

[liliput1]

There's a rule below the 8th Grade rule? It's beyond 8th grade that you write at a literacy level above that of most (American) readers, and your potential readership falls off a cliff.

Who writes porn for 8-year-olds?

Newspapers, reading level is not target audience, and check your math if you are going to do incredulous at me.