On writing: plotting, planning and pantsing

[StillStunned]

This is a topic that we all deal with as soon as we write our first words. Do we work according to an outline, or do we just have a vague idea and start typing?

I was always told that stories had to be plotted out meticulously. Maybe it was the general mindset when I was younger, or maybe just the people around me, but it seemed that "making it up as you go along" was worthy of derision. It killed any ambitions I had for years, though luckily not my desire to write.

Even now, with pantsing being an acceptable approach, there still seems to be a heavy emphasis on plotting. And people have been theorising about plot for thousands of years, going back at least to the Greek playwrights. More recently there's the Hero's Journey and the Freytag Pyramid, and even more recently Save the Cat, and probably several dozen others that I can't be arsed to recall just now.

I've read several books on plotting, and they all seem to look down on pantsing. They might not say it outright, but there's generally a few lines of "Even if you're a pantser, you'll find this information useful for when you inevitably get bogged down and realise you need someone to come and rescue you." I suppose they need to sell books.

I've tried plotting. I really have. I've even tried to apply the Five-Room Dungeon concept to fiction writing because none of the other approaches worked. The thing is, I lose interest. I lose interest in the story even before I've finished plotting. As a teenager I devoured Terry Brooks's Shannara series, and his advice was "outline, outline, outline", adding more and more detail until the story is there. Alright, so he had a bad experience with pantsing and had to be rescued by Lester del Rey. And most plotters probably don't go to such extreme lengths. But I'd go absolutely crazy writing bits of story if I knew where it started and where it will end, and what happens next.

I suppose it's not strange that there don't seem to be any guides to pantsing. Or maybe there are, and I just haven't found them. What would they say, after all? "Have an idea. Open your laptop. Start writing until you're done."

It's not that simple, of course. I doubt even the most ardent veterans of the Pantser Brigade actually write like that. We *do* plot - or at least plan. We have ideas, and - speaking for myself - type towards those ideas. And then go back and mould what we've written into the correct shape. Not exactly "making it up as we go along," but planning as we go along, in reaction to what we've already written.

So where do you stand? Do you habitually make notes saying "Rising Action starts here", or "Dark Night of the Soul - remember to hint at death"? Do you start with nothing but a single scene in your head and think, "Now how do we get there?"

If you were asked to contribute to a "Pantser's Guide to Finishing Your Damn Story", what advice would you give? Or would you just say, "Try plotting, you hippy"?

If you've had success with both plotting and pantsing, or something in between, what worked best, what did you enjoy most, and why? What would you recommend to beginning writers? Have you ever written a long forum post and not known how to end it on a satisfying note?

 

[BeechLeaf]

Joyce Grenfell was once asked where she got her ideas from. She replied, 'If I knew that, I'd go there again.'

This is a bit like that. If I had any idea how I worked out a story, I could do it again. I remember gradually moving pieces around, and adding details, and other low-level things, but I wish I knew how to begin a new one.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Sometimes, I just write out the scenes as I go. I have an idea as to where I'm going, sometimes a fairly firm idea of what'll along the way.

Other times, I have an idea, and I feel the need to slap it all down at once. When that happens I either wind up with a very rough draft with bits of scene and dialog thrown in here and there, that needs just a little bit of work to stretch out. Or I wind up with an outline.

With both of them, I underline the whole document before getting to work on them, so I know what I've worked on and haven't. With the outline though, I'm more likely to reach a spot, and realize something needs to happen here, but I don't know what, and put in a note such as, "Need slice of life scene here" and then put it down while I think about it.

Not sure how pantsy my outlines are though.

 

[yowser]

So on this theme I've got myself into a disorienting quandary for an entry for the Ogg Heroism event.

Normally on the Plantser Scale Index (a linear ten-point scale which ranges from 0=Pure Plotter [Crystalline Story Vision, carefully controlled and executed prose] to 10=Pure Pantser [No-idea-of-what-the-story-is-about-until-I-start-writing) I am usually a 3, with occasional forays into 7-8 territory.

For this story I have a couple dozen scenes (too many), with a strong beginning and end, and need to stitch the appropriate pieces into place, without a perfect story arc vision. I feel like I am making a collage or doing a puzzle, pushing scenes around (all of which make sense to me, illuminate character or show movement) so that the whole thing works. But it's a mess right now, although better than a week ago, and while determined to finish it, I am highly doubtful whether it will work to my satisfaction.

This whole writing thing is enough to drive you nuts, you think you have a system or at least know what works best for you, and then it all gets blurry and confusing in your face.

 

[TheLobster]

I suppose it's not strange that there don't seem to be any guides to pantsing. Or maybe there are, and I just haven't found them.

For what it’s worth, here’s a rather detailed breakdown of the writing process by a self-described pantser. I personally found it quite enlightening, perhaps because her approach seems to be very similar to mine

 

[sijopunk]

So where do you stand? Do you habitually make notes saying "Rising Action starts here", or "Dark Night of the Soul - remember to hint at death"? Do you start with nothing but a single scene in your head and think, "Now how do we get there?"

I prefer the term "discovery writing" to "pantsing" because it makes it seem like I have a plan when I'm writing. I usually do (although it rarely turns out that way in the early versions). I don't like to outline because I often uncover the heart of the story during the drafting and revision/rewriting phases, so I end up having to iterate over the story several times.

The first draft is pure discovery, and if there's something there worth keeping then I rewrite, remove, or tweak the parts that don't end up supporting "the thing worth keeping."

It's becoming a process, although by "process" I just mean "a containment area for the detonation of chaos" that happens during drafting/pantsing/discovery writing.

 

[Bamagan]

I'm skeptical that there's really much difference between pantsing and plotting. Both 'types' start with an idea or collection of ideas which they intend to bind together and embellish and polish into what they hope will be a satisfying story. Writing isn't like math, where there's an order of operations that has to be followed to get consistent results (and the order we use is mostly arbitrary). For that matter, getting consistent results isn't even a goal for most writers, who generally aspire to some kind of uniqueness and novelty (pun intended).

Outline or no outline, almost all of the connective tissue is being made up as you go along, some writers just like having more waypoints to aim for. I think it's mostly a matter of how much it aligns on the first pass versus how much one has to go back and tighten things up so that it doesn't meander too far from the clearest version possible.

 

[Writer61]

I like to think of myself as a planner, but in reality, I am a pantser when it comes to writing. That said, I like constructing series, so there is planning involved, even though I don't plot the exact arc of an individual story.

 

[Bazzle]

If you plot to the nth degree. Your characters can't make decisions?

I tend to have an ending in my mind, I don't really care how I get there.

 

[MK_Whimsy]

I'm more of a pantser, though my stories are often relatively thin on plot anyway. I like the spontaneity involved in writing more on the fly.

Though speaking of which as a pantser, it does make me wonder--if I were struggling to write this way for some reason, would that mean my fly is down?

 

[anthrodisiac]

I'll kinda have an idea where I want a story to go sometimes, but I keep it vague to allow for the meanders to override that silly plotting nonsense when I realize it's totally wrong for the story and characters. I tried plotting initially, but every time the story would veer away from the outline and I gave up. The most I've done recently is figure out which anthros the MC of my series encounters and what lessons he should learn from that encounter, and everything else is just "well, time to find out what's going on" by rolling in the trenches with the characters and story.

My approach is one of path of least resistance. What feels the most natural and obvious and easy for the story and characters, and go with that. If I butt up against writing that feels like I have to grind through it or it's just not coming to me, it usually means I'm doing something wrong and I need to adjust my approach until it flows more readily.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I write scenes, and then fill in the blanks to bring all the scenes together into something comprehensible. I consider myself an organized pantser.

What I actually do is comparable to story boarding. I use an Excel spreadsheet to log ideas, characters, and scene elements as they come to me. Then I work on the timeline in which I envision the scenes unfolding. So, things are somewhat organized in that I have a foundation and the pieces to build from largely identified, but not cast in concrete.

I do developmental and line editing as I go, without too much worry about typos or other mistakes that will be found later. I don't determine where section or chapter breaks will go until the story is complete and then fit them in to match the desired flow.

 

[Rob_Royale]

With all of my stories 30k words or less, I can outline in my mind. This happens and then this and this until finally, that. Like starting work with a skeleton of a story like an artist starts with a line drawing to draw a figure. Sometimes I'll jot down a few notes, things I've thought of that I don't want to forget.
As I start writing, I'm adding muscle and sinew. That becomes the first draft.
Then I go back through it, adding skin and hair until like an artist, I have something that looks and sounds like what I've imagined.
Then the editing, which is the final polish where she gets an alluring smile and a gleam in her eye.
Having said that, if I was planning a novel length story, I'd be outlining my ass off.

 

[Bodington]

My contributions to Literotica have been mostly in the novels and novellas category. Incidentally, I define a novel as a work of fiction which consists of at least 100 K words. I understand the publishing world would define a novel as one with as little as 40 K words, but I think such a short novel cheats the reader who expects a more complete and compelling story. I believe most of the acknowledged great novels exceed 100 K words.

Anyway, I most certainly adhere to the pantsing method in plotting my novels. That is that I get an idea for a scene which I find compelling and decide to incorporate it into a full length story. Sometimes I have an ending in mind and it is just a matter of filling in the details to arrive at the predetermined conclusion. Sometimes I don’t even have that as I plod long in my story based on suggesting natural consequences as a result of what has occurred.

My best example is my novel titled Vivian Laaning which is the name of my main character. The idea for my novel stems from the fact that when I was in college I took an English literature course which comprised of studying twelve prominent English novels. One of the novels was “Tess of the d’Urbervilles” by Thomas Hardy published in 1892. In that novel there is a scene where the heroine is hand milking a cow in such a way that her seducer gets aroused which leads him to take her sexually. Bear in mind this novel was written during the prudish Victorian area and as a result is devoid of any graphic description as would be prevalent in current novels. Nevertheless, I’ve always viewed this scene as one of the most erotic and stimulating scenes I’ve ever encountered in literature.

So that was my idea to construct a story with my starting point to replicate that scene, but of course, including more graphic details. Since Wisconsin is the state most renowned for its dairy industry that provided for the locale of my novel. Since modern dairy farms utilize machines to milk their cows, I had to come up with a plausible reason why my heroine is hand milking a cow. I trust my explanation was reasonable, and so I was off to the races. I had no idea how my novel would end as it all depended on how the story unfolded.

I was not going to set the story as a rural saga. I had my heroine attend the University of Wisconsin which gave me the opportunity for descriptions of some varied sex scenes. Then I had her going on to study law at the University of Chicago and eventually become a lawyer in the windy city. Finally I was able to bring the story to a final conclusion.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Shannara had a detailed plot outline in advance? That's the best argument for pantsing I've ever heard...

I often start with pure winging it. Describe a character. They speak to another character. What's their relationship like? What are they doing?

Once I've written a bunch of that, then a story may become obvious. How did they get from meeting to fucking? Or how is one of them adjusting to changing circumstances? What would happen if they knew a bank robber? Whatever. Then some plotting might happen. Happy ending. Before that, Plan Succeeds. A realises they can enjoy something they never did before. Before that, need Conversation about desires and fears, couched in banter. Luckily, that's probably where I started.

Then fill in the gaps. Re-read and see where it hiccups. Polish until smooth.

 

[dirk2024]

For me...it varies.

Mostly I do a combination of plotting and pantsing.

On the story I am currently working on, I decided how long - chronologically - the story would take. I wrote the beginning and a vague notion of how I wanted it to end. Then I broke down the three weeks into one week sections, with action happening on various days within those weeks. I did this to be sure that I drew the story out into a plausible time frame, not wishing to either rush it or drag it out.

Then I pantsed the scenes within those time marks. Some I had to move around as new ideas popped into my head. I shared a snippet or two with @NuclearFairy who gave me some input that added color and another scene. I have one last scene to write, then let the whole thing marinate for a few days to a week, before editing some more. (I often edit as I go along, addressing earlier pantsing to improve the story progression).

We'll see how well it comes out in August when I submit it for the coming Music challenge.

 

[AStrangeDesire]

I try planning, but then I find that what I had detailed--I tend to make bulleted lists and check items off once I've written them--isn't where the characters go.

I still do it, mind you, but not all the time. And when I head in a different direction, I don't let it bother me. I just keep going where the story and characters take me, because that typically makes more sense from the story perspective.

That said, I try to pick some major milestones, key events or turning points, and write to those. More like that distant 'goal post' that I'm heading towards. Sometimes that's the ending, where I want the characters to eventually land. Without that, I tend to think of more and more scenarios and the story meanders too much.

Plotting and planning appeal to me, I wish they worked on some level, but

 

[Rob_Royale]

Shannara had a detailed plot outline in advance? That's the best argument for pantsing I've ever heard...

Sure. It was called the Lord of the Rings.

 

[Britva415]

like math, where there's an order of operations that has to be followed to get consistent results (and the order we use is mostly arbitrary)

Was that supposed to be about the math or about the writing?

Math's OOO isn't arbitrary at all!

 

[Britva415]

If you plot to the nth degree. Your characters can't make decisions?

Of course they can. That IS plot!

If what you mean is along the lines of "it's the character, not the author, making the decision when you pants it," or "it's the author, not the character, making the decision when you over-plot it," well, one is failure to distinguish fiction from real life, and the other is failing to recognize the real-life processes which fiction emerges from.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I think I've said this before on the various plotting vs pantsing threads.

Writing prose is time-consuming, at the very least, it's slower than the speed of imagination. I do tend to be a concept-driven writer, which means that my initial spark or image can either suggest the start, middle or end of the story. Regardless, when I've got something that looks like it's worth fleshing out, I can do that way faster by imagining what's going to happen in my head than trying to capture it on the page. I never write a scene without knowing where the entry-points and ending-points are, and what other points I want to hit along the way. Having that clarity means that when I'm actually at the keyboard, I'm able to focus on expressing what I know happens in the best way possible - sexiest, funniest, most horrifying - depends on the genre. Sometimes, if I know it's going to be a talky scene, I start by writing movie script version first and get the dialogue right before going back and adding in tags, body language, description and inner monologue.

I used to plan all the way through. These days, if I've got enough of a feel for an individual scene that it seems to work on its own, I might spend an hour or two getting it on the page. Usually, this is for stuff where the details aren't going to change - for example, the inciting incident or fundamental setup.

 

[Bazzle]

Of course they can. That IS plot!

If what you mean is along the lines of "it's the character, not the author, making the decision when you pants it," or "it's the author, not the character, making the decision when you over-plot it," well, one is failure to distinguish fiction from real life, and the other is failing to recognize the real-life processes which fiction emerges from.

In my normally wrong opinion, when you plan and plot it all out, the author is making all the decisions.

When you Pants it, the characters will drive you along, their decisions will decide the route, and you the author will follow.

Which is why when Pantsing, you end up in cul de sacs of half baked stories...because the characters take it in the wrong direction.

 

[TheRedChamber]

@Bazzle

There's a danger of that. But generally when I'm plotting things like character, plot and setting are moving forward together. If you are working towards the hotness of the story, rather than the key image or idea being at the start, then what you are usually doing is starting with the question: what kind of person would get into this type of sexy situation? Then you can assign them some very basic personality traits or background points - if you are writing an exhibitionist story, then the fact that the heroine doesn't want her housemates to know she has (is on the way to getting) a lover could be important for why she decides to risk doing something outdoors. Then there's the fact that you want some dramatic tension, so you also need to address 'why wouldn't the main character usually do this? and why is it different today?

There is the risk of the tail wagging the dog with this, but as long as you don't make the requirements of getting into the sexy situation so outlandish that no person ever would want to do it or want to risk it, then you can build up a believable character who will eventually come to do the thing you want them to do.

And, as I always point out, if your character wants to do something else and that something else is better than what you originally had in your plan, let them. Usually my outline is only my way of convincing myself that there is one possible ending to the story.

 

[ElectricBlue]

When you Pants it, the characters will drive you along, their decisions will decide the route, and you the author will follow.

Not really, because you're still the author, and the characters are from your conscious or subconscious mind. They have no separate being. You're always writing them - it might seem like trying to keep up, at times, but the writer is still 100% in control.

Which is why when Pantsing, you end up in cul de sacs of half baked stories...because the characters take it in the wrong direction.

Not me. I've never had a story yet that's stalled. If something's not quite right, I keep writing, and it always turns out right in the end.

 

[Britva415]

When you Pants it, the characters will drive you along, their decisions will decide the route, and you the author will follow.

Which is why when Pantsing, you end up in cul de sacs of half baked stories

No, that's just ... Not right.

Pantsing for one thing does not mean the author can't course-correct during the writing.

For another, it doesn't mean the author can't revise something that's half baked or stuck in a cul de sac.

For another 'nother, many a plotter has finished a draft and recognized that it's half baked and stuck in a cul de sac. That's why it's called a draft.

You're using some definition of pantsing which is extremely black and white, robs the author of agency, and doesn't match a lot of the results of pantsing.

Now let's see if you move the goalposts by defining "course correction" and "revision" as "plotting."