Opinions for a new writer, and an introduction.

[drksideofthemoon]

J.R.R. Tolkein was a little nonplussed that anyone wanted to read his personal fantasy pleasure writing to begin with.

Yes, that's quite true. He was definitely "one of a kind".

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

There was a challeng thread in the AH about a year ago that had the writers writing a short 300 word piece that discribed a celeb without naming him/her. It was interesting because everyone knew exactly most of the celebs.

However, if you go to the FanFic catagory and start reading, in most cases the celebs are some character with the same name as a celeb but have none of their attributes. Not many AH'rs write in that catagory.

 

[Sweetbrier]

However, if you go to the FanFic catagory and start reading, in most cases the celebs are some character with the same name as a celeb but have none of their attributes. Not many AH'rs write in that catagory.

This is precisely why I would never try to write one of the 'celeb' characters from the story. You'll not find Gandalf, Merry, Pippin, or even Tom making an appearance in the story as anything ever more than a cameo. For example, Butterbur would decidedly be in a story about the Prancing Pony, but never as more than the barkeep he is, and certainly not involved with any of the characters.

You may see my characters running from Fang and Farmer Maggot, but never involved in a three-way with either. Elrond may be encountered in a story in Rivendell, but certainly not involved in a sex scene. These characters are not mine to write, and I would include them as little as possible as I'm not certain I could capture their 'feel' properly anyway.

I, in general, loathe slash-fic, or characters from books being used in ways against their character and wholly inappropriately for who they were. The world I write in may be Master Tolkiens, but the characters I write *WITH* are my own, with Master Tolkiens characters appearing only where appropriate, and as little as possible.

While I know this doesn't make those who loathe fanfic in general feel any better, it is my own respect for Master Tolkien that makes me not include his character 'celebs'. They have their own stories, and these are mine.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

sweetbrier,

There is a serious point here about plagiarism that waving your arms about is not going to make go away. If the Tolkien estate is not going chasing not-for-profit (aka poor) thefts doesn't excuse you. You took someone else's ideas and hung on like a parasite. You have to respect a writer's ownership unless you can produce something original.

Why not create your own space?

 

[sr71plt]

sweetbrier,

There is a serious point here about plagiarism that waving your arms about is not going to make go away. If the Tolkien estate is not going chasing not-for-profit (aka poor) thefts doesn't excuse you. You took someone else's ideas and hung on like a parasite. You have to respect a writer's ownership unless you can produce something original.

Why not create your own space?

Alas, plagiarism isn't connect to other's ideas for created literary worlds. You can't protect claimed unique "ideas," and if you want to protect literary worlds you have to trademark them (which isn't easy; you have to demonstrate threat to proprietary commercial interest--which, as noted above, is never going to cover satire/parody). Plagiarism flips in by duplicating passages of text. You can make the identical argument someone else does, you just can't repeat large groups of their own published words in doing so and claim these are your own.

That said, I really can't conceive of taking a character created by someone like Tolkein from a world not intended to be erotic and moving that character into a pornagraphic situation as being in the least respectful of the original author's work. And if that character/world is trademarked, this would be one of the easiest areas for the trademark owner to establish damage and sustain a lawsuit.

 

[Sweetbrier]

And if that character/world is trademarked, this would be one of the easiest areas for the trademark owner to establish damage and sustain a lawsuit.

It may well be, but the Tolkien estate has a long history of having no desire to squash literary works set in Middle Earth by non-profit authors such as myself. In the event of one particular website I'm familiar with, the only time they got any issues from the Estate was when they were using the name 'Tolkien Online'. The only request from the estate was that they stop using that name, which they promptly complied with.

But thats not the point of this. The point of this is a matter of opinion, rather than fact or legislation or technicalities.

Some feel that writing in a world created by another is plagiarism, some don't. Whether it is or not is in the hands of the original author to decide when it comes down to grainy matters such as fan-fic. The Tolkien estate has determined that fan-fic is harmless provided no money is attempted to be made from the work, and that no association to the Estate is made. (Such as with the name 'Tolkien Online')

Ultimately, however, we are not going to agree on this point.

And the only answer I have to those who ask 'Why not create your own space?'.

Because I happen to like writing in Master Tolkien's, but don't presume I haven't done my own work or am incapable of it simply because I choose to write in a setting I fell in love with. I also don't consider it disrespectful.

If the Tolkien estate is not going chasing not-for-profit (aka poor) thefts doesn't excuse you.

Theft is only theft if the owner of said property says its theft, they don't, ergo, its not.

 

[sr71plt]

But thats not the point of this. The point of this is a matter of opinion, rather than fact or legislation or technicalities.

Right. And you asked for it, and you are getting it. Of course, if it includes references to legislation or technicalities, it's because writing about fantasy isn't fantasy itself.

 

[Sweetbrier]

Right. And you asked for it, and you are getting it. Of course, if it includes references to legislation or technicalities, it's because writing about fantasy isn't fantasy itself.

*chuckles* Point.. Point indeed.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Theft is only theft if the owner of said property says its theft, they don't, ergo, its not.

I disagree with your statement. Theft is the taking, or use of something without the rightful owner's implicit permission.

Example. A man enters an orchard without the owner's permission and takes an apple. Even though the owner of the orchard doesn't know the apple has been taken, the man has still committed "theft."

Unless you have implicit permission to use J.R.R. Tolkien's work, you are infringing on the copyright, and quite likely at this time, the trademark rights, by using Middle Earth, the Shire, and other characters and locations that were created by J.R.R. Tolkien.

 

[The_Fractal_King]

This comes directly from the Estate of JRR Tolkien:
http://www.tolkienestate.com/faq/p_2/

Can I / someone else write / complete / develop my / their own version of one of these unfinished tales ? (or any others)
The simple answer is NO.
You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction".
Also, in these days of the Internet, and privately produced collectors’ items for sale on eBay, we must make it as clear as possible that the Tolkien Estate never has, and never will authorize the commercialisation or distribution of any works of this type.
The Estate exists to defend the integrity of J.R.R. Tolkien’s writings. Christopher Tolkien's work as his father’s literary executor has always been to publish as faithfully and honestly as possible his father's completed and uncompleted works, without adaptation or embellishment.


It would seem that the use of Tolkien's world as a setting, without permission from the Estate, is questionable at best.

 

[Sweetbrier]

You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction".

I would say this statement backs up everything I had to say.. So long as its not for commercial gain, they just gave explicit permission to write as you will for fan-fiction.

It would seem that the use of Tolkien's world as a setting, without permission from the Estate, is questionable at best.

I don't see any other way to interpret that, so how is it questionable? I am not seeking to make any money, nor make any commercial venture, and by this statement, permission is granted to write fan-fiction.

I disagree with your statement. Theft is the taking, or use of something without the rightful owner's implicit permission.

Example. A man enters an orchard without the owner's permission and takes an apple. Even though the owner of the orchard doesn't know the apple has been taken, the man has still committed "theft."

Bad example, the owner of the field would most likely say that that was theft, and therefor, it would be, caught or not. The Tolkien Estate is intimately aware of the fact that there are entire forums and websites dedicated to the non-commercial writing of fan-fiction in Middle Earth, and do not say it is theft. Ergo, its not theft.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, that scotches posting such a story on Literotica. This is a commercial site, and the site owners are as bound by copyright and trademark law as an author is who submits stories to the site. Good luck in finding an Internet site that law won't define as commercial.

 

[Sweetbrier]

The people posting here are not posting with the intent to make money.

If the Tolkien estate does not consider sites such as 'www.theonering.com' as being a commercial site, I doubt they consider this one any more so. And let me implicitly state that they do *NOT* consider theonering.com as being either a violation of their copyright, nor the fiction written there, and are very much aware of its existence.

I would imagine Literotica falls under the same set of guidelines.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I would say this statement backs up everything I had to say.. So long as its not for commercial gain, they just gave explicit permission to write as you will for fan-fiction.

I would say the exact opposite. It says you can create what you want for your personal use, and that's it. It disallows the use of Tolkien's work for commercial purposes. This is a commericial website, its goal is to make money.

I don't see any other way to interpret that, so how is it questionable? I am not seeking to make any money, nor make any commercial venture, and by this statement, permission is granted to write fan-fiction.

Again, you read what you want into the statement, and not what it says. There is no permission granted for fan-fiction.

Bad example, the owner of the field would most likely say that that was theft, and therefor, it would be, caught or not. The Tolkien Estate is intimately aware of the fact that there are entire forums and websites dedicated to the non-commercial writing of fan-fiction in Middle Earth, and do not say it is theft. Ergo, its not theft.

No, it's a great example. The theft occurs when the man steals the apple, not when the owner discovers the missing apple.

Read the statement again.

Can I / someone else write / complete / develop my / their own version of one of these unfinished tales ? (or any others)
The simple answer is NO.
You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction".

What part of no do you not understand? It says you can create whatever you want for your personal use, but nothing else. There is no license granted for fan-fiction.

 

[Sweetbrier]

How skillfully you've completely ignored my comments about their treatment of fan sites dedicated to fan-fiction, and what this reflects of their opinion on it.

However, I figure we're simply going to have to agree to disagree, as was already stated. I won't be replying in this thread to this topic again.

 

[sr71plt]

The people posting here are not posting with the intent to make money.

If the Tolkien estate does not consider sites such as 'www.theonering.com' as being a commercial site, I doubt they consider this one any more so. And let me implicitly state that they do *NOT* consider theonering.com as being either a violation of their copyright, nor the fiction written there, and are very much aware of its existence.

I would imagine Literotica falls under the same set of guidelines.

Unfortunately what you imagine and what exists are two different things. You can't really make the rules to suit you about these things as you go along. This is a commercial site. Case closed.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

How skillfully you've completely ignored my comments about their treatment of fan sites dedicated to fan-fiction, and what this reflects of their opinion on it.

However, I figure we're simply going to have to agree to disagree, as was already stated. I won't be replying in this thread to this topic again.

Since none of us are privy to the workings of the Tolkien estate, it's tough for us to make any comment on it.

As SR71 stated, this is a commercial site. Posting your work here infringes on the copyright of J.R.R. Tolkien's work, and is implicitly disallowed by his estate.