PBS Poll: 95% Oppose Gun Control

[PoppingTom]

There's no way to get rid of all the guns in America

That's true, but that wasn't and will never be the goal on gun control.

People in Germany got weapons, too. We even had our school shootings (last one was 2009 in Winnenden).The gun control touches only the accessibility of guns, to prevent events like that. For example: at home, the gun and the ammo must be in different, separately closed lockers.

The point is, crooks steal their guns and will get them anyway regardless of law.

The thing is: with gun laws, police can take them.

 

[Sean Renaud]

There's no way to get rid of all the guns in America, nor would it be legal. The point is, crooks steal their guns and will get them anyway regardless of law.

We can make it legal with ease and as for getting rid of them why bother? Just make their use illegal and highly penalized and collect them as you come across them. No rush.

And crooks can't steal guns that aren't there.

 

[mikey2much]

If you need a gun to fight the law, you're fucked

There was a time when I'd say: You're American. You ARE paranoid. Look at all the countries with heavy gun restriction. They're much safer places than any place in the US. You are too selfish just thinking the government will take YOUR weapon instead of the much bigger one from the criminals. Some people I 'd claim to have a sane mind even think guns protect them from government. If that's not paranoid, I don't know. All I know is: weapon manufacturer profit from you paranoids.

Now I think a little bit different: you've got a shitty police. You always wanted them to be limited. You mistrust them, like you mistrust anything government, and the government behaves like that. I wouldn't say you need that self defense thing, but I understand you prefer it.

I still think most Americans still get something wrong: every of your solution against criminality is a solution the criminals got, too. Every, except one: you can call the police. They should have the power and the knowledge to act with criminals in a professional way.
Off course, this can't work if any shithole drug gangster got the ability to be armed 100 times better than the whole police of his county. I understand more and more why the police is acting with such brutality: there seems to be no other way to gain respect.

When I was in Venice, Italy last month, I've watched a gorgeous scene: 3 criminals running away from the police. Three (in words: THREE) policemen stopped them, with just holding their hands as a sign: you can't pass.

When I was in Munich a few days later, I've watched a scene much like the Eric Garner one: ten policemen try to arrest one black man who did.....well, they couldn't/wouldn't tell. He survived that, but people laughing their ass off because of incompetent police acting. (Munich police is known as the most wannabe-American in Germany. I never watched a scene like that in Berlin...)

Thing is: the Venice police got respect, as they REALLY got the monopoly on violence, as it should be, and can handle it professionally. Munich is known for having even private militias - off course, police must be more "police-like" to earn some respect.

I don't have guns in the hope of fighting off the forces of law and order. That is a battle that you cannot win. Think David Koresh and the Waco texas massacre.

But living out in the country like I do, I don't want to have to wait on the cops to come save me when I hear the glass in the door break.

And there is the fact that I live an illegal lifestyle. Cops in my house is the stuff of nightmares.

 

[Que]

We can make it legal with ease and as for getting rid of them why bother? Just make their use illegal and highly penalized and collect them as you come across them. No rush.

And crooks can't steal guns that aren't there.

You realize that most meth these days is imported from a violence and gun-filled country to the south that already has a virtual ban on private ownership of guns?

Until this administration decided to let straw purchases here and cross-border shipment hardly any of those guns came from the US. Because of the above very logical argument I just made above, the administration wanted to falsely claim that the violence in Mexico is imported from the US.

If guns are banned here, the same levels of violence will move the few miles north. Good people are defenseless in Mexico, and the Mexican gangs know that violence here will be met in kind so they do not wantonly take over entire towns here.

 

[Que]

That's true, but that wasn't and will never be the goal on gun control.

People in Germany got weapons, too. We even had our school shootings (last one was 2009 in Winnenden).The gun control touches only the accessibility of guns, to prevent events like that. For example: at home, the gun and the ammo must be in different, separately closed lockers.



The thing is: with gun laws, police can take them.

That is retarded. A gun cannot be used for home defense without bullets.

Police already can confiscate guns of criminals when and if they find them. Making citizens into criminals is stupid. Everywhere gun restrictions have been loosened all crime goes down.

Eliminate all suicides and gang related crimes and your chance of being killed by a gun in America is nil. Most first degree, premeditated homicides in America is committed by someone already prohibited from owning a firearm do to their previous criminal record. Murder is not most peoples first crime. Guns are used in crimes of passion (usually 2nd degree homicides) but a knife or a club is just as effective and probably more satisfying.

 

[Sean Renaud]

You realize that most meth these days is imported from a violence and gun-filled country to the south that already has a virtual ban on private ownership of guns?

Until this administration decided to let straw purchases here and cross-border shipment hardly any of those guns came from the US. Because of the above very logical argument I just made above, the administration wanted to falsely claim that the violence in Mexico is imported from the US.

If guns are banned here, the same levels of violence will move the few miles north. Good people are defenseless in Mexico, and the Mexican gangs know that violence here will be met in kind so they do not wantonly take over entire towns here.

This president didn't allow anything that was completely legal always had been. The idea that hardly any of those guns came from the US is just Bullshit, what percentage is debatable but lets say for the sake of argument that your right.

Mexico is a hair shy of a failed state the government is not in control in any true sense of the word. That doesn't negate Canada and Europe and Japan and China and Australia so on and so forth.

And that's before we admit what the American War on Drugs has done to them and why those drug cartels exist in the first fucking place.

Tell me again about how many nukes Iran has again?

 

[Que]

This president didn't allow anything that was completely legal always had been. The idea that hardly any of those guns came from the US is just Bullshit, what percentage is debatable but lets say for the sake of argument that your right.

Mexico is a hair shy of a failed state the government is not in control in any true sense of the word. That doesn't negate Canada and Europe and Japan and China and Australia so on and so forth.

Of course he did. Why do you think they are stonewalling document production? When and if that linkage is ever shown you going to denounce him for the deaths of Mexican Citizens with US gov't provided guns? These agents were not rogue. They were complaining long and loudly about the obvious stupidity of the operation that could not possibly have had any law enforcement rationale.

I happen to know about gun purchases. I know of an individual that would like to get his hands on US guns for shipment there. Since the government quit asking law-abiding gun-shop owners to look the other way, his sources have dried up. Guns are still imported from other countries, SKS and Ak47 and AK74s mostly. They would rather have Ar15s. You think criminals cannot get guns from the armories of other failed narco states?

Crime in Australia is up, just not with guns. Who cares if you are beaten to death stabbed or shot. I do care if I can shoot my assailant.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Sure, but no link will ever be found because Second Amendment baby. It's already perfectly legal. I didn't say the agents were rogue, I don't believe for a second they were or that they weren't acting under the administrations orders. They thought they had a plan that might work and they apparently did not. It's a simple as that.

I think a sufficiently determined criminal may be able to get his hands on weapons yes. I think you can make it extremely difficult and not worth it for them to do it. Assuming you're government is actually in charge of your country.

I care if I'm beaten or shot. My chances of out running you are a lot better than my chances of out running a bullet. My chances of surviving a beating are better than my chances of surviving a shooting as well.

I do like having the option open to shoot the other guy and if Americans would be like you and just admit we aren't safer we just want to play cowboy consequences be damned I'd be right there cheerleading. Because I agree with that.

 

[PoppingTom]

You realize that most meth these days is imported from a violence and gun-filled country to the south that already has a virtual ban on private ownership of guns?

C'mon, you can be more American Stupid™ like that. Just say: the narco business in Mexico was made out of a virtual ban on private gun possesions.

If guns are banned here, the same levels of violence will move the few miles north. Good people are defenseless in Mexico, and the Mexican gangs know that violence here will be met in kind so they do not wantonly take over entire towns here.

The main reason the same level of violence isn't happen a few miles north from Mexico is simply the border. And American society isn't that corrupt like the Mexican.

But narco cartels could easily bring the same level of violence to the states if they wanted to. Not only with weapons. But with making people believe that the government is their real enemy.

 

[PoppingTom]

Crime in Australia is up, just not with guns. Who cares if you are beaten to death stabbed or shot. I do care if I can shoot my assailant.

Crime in Australia is on the same level like UK, even Ireland is worse.

And I care if a drunken aggressive weirdo has a gun and can shoot me from the other street side.

 

[PoppingTom]

But living out in the country like I do, I don't want to have to wait on the cops to come save me when I hear the glass in the door break.

And there is the fact that I live an illegal lifestyle. Cops in my house is the stuff of nightmares.

Well, we've got people living in the country, too. Maybe not that big distances like your countrysides, but enough the police needs hours to get there. The more paranoid of them have very agressive dogs.

I understand that you've got guns, as the whole country is gun nuts and you feel better to have the same level of power. Because that's the real goal on weapons: not security, but power. Thinking power provides security.

 

[Bad_Doggie]

The point is, crooks steal their guns and will get them anyway regardless of law.

In all other westernised countries the vast majority of crooks don't have guns.

The crooks can't steal guns. There's a surprise huh!

The death rates for fire arms are extremely low.

And yet other methods of murder are no higher.

To you this is an unsolvable rubik's cube, the the rest of the western world has figured it out.

Sad.

Woof!

 

[Bad_Doggie]

Eliminate all suicides and gang related crimes and your chance of being killed by a gun in America is nil.

http://www.tribunact.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/SANDY-HOOK-ELEMENTARY-VICTIMS-730x365.jpg

Where are they now then???

Woof!

 

[Que]

Where are they now then???

Woof!

Always better to appeal to emotion than logic, isn't it?

Next post a montage of every child that tragically died in a swimming pool, bathtub or bucket of water.

#banswimmingpoolsnow

 

[Bad_Doggie]

Always better to appeal to emotion than logic, isn't it?

Next post a montage of every child that tragically died in a swimming pool, bathtub or bucket of water.

#banswimmingpoolsnow

It isn't an appeal to emotion; it shows your previous comment was incorrect; a lie even.

Eliminate all suicides and gang related crimes and your chance of being killed by a gun in America is nil.

Then you wanna get all emotional and introduce a string of red herrings, how honest and logical is that?

Woof!

 

[Bad_Doggie]

(snip....)So I grab a graph and have an "oops" moment when it supports his view. I then have to evaluate my own position, look at the graph and figure out how the graph was tortured to produce results that just cannot be (according to my view of the matter.)

It's a good exercise, intellectually.

It's an intellectually bankrupt way of doing things....just like the above.

Look at the evidence, all of the evidence and then form your views.

Not form your views and then figure out how to discredit the evidence that doesn't support your views.

Woof!

 

[RobDownSouth]

It's an intellectually bankrupt way of doing things....just like the above.

Look at the evidence, all of the evidence and then form your views.

Not form your views and then figure out how to discredit the evidence that doesn't support your views.

Woof!

Queerbait tries so hard. So very hard.

 

[Que]

It's an intellectually bankrupt way of doing things....just like the above.

Look at the evidence, all of the evidence and then form your views.

Not form your views and then figure out how to discredit the evidence that doesn't support your views.

Woof!

Actually that is exactly what all the anti-gun nuts in America do, not the other way around. I have seen all of the statistics. I am at nearly zero risk of being harmed by a firearm. Based on where I live, what sort of crime is in the area. I have a better chance of being killed by a cow or a deer.

 

[Bad_Doggie]

Actually that is exactly what all the anti-gun nuts in America do, not the other way around.

Not the other way round?

Surely you jest sir? This is most AJ-esque!

On this very page, a few posts up, you have a crystal clear example of someone posting;

Misrepresented facts

A lie about those facts

Two attempts at obfuscation and the above is now the third.

Your posts I believe.

Then to top it all off you post your mo, which is to have a predetermined conclusion and admit to preferring data which fits that predetermined conclusion; everyone can see, that’s exactly what you did here.

And another thing….

Eliminate all suicides and gang related crimes and your chance of being killed by a gun in America is nil.

You don’t get to hand wave away, data just because it’s inconvenient to your preconceived conclusion.

I have seen all of the statistics. I am at nearly zero risk of being harmed by a firearm. Based on where I live, what sort of crime is in the area. I have a better chance of being killed by a cow or a deer.

Look dude, this is the internet, your personal circumstances are totally irrelevant to this or any other discussion, to say nothing of the above being an incredibly selfish attitude.

Yes I’ve also seen the stats and done the leg work to collate those stats….


The average American is far more likely to be;

Murdered in a mass shooting in a public place (school, Mall, cinema etc etc)
Murdered with a firearm
Injured with a firearm
Subjected to a crime involving a firearm
Accidentally killed with a firearm.
Your police officers are at least 10 times more likely to die as a result of a firearm related incident.
Than any other westernized nation and your stats are more like those of an African or South American nation.

And all that with no discernible reduction in crime rates against the person in general (robbery, rape etc etc.)

Woof!

 

[Bad_Doggie]

Crime in Australia is on the same level like UK, even Ireland is worse.

And this is another oft used meme.....

It is utterly pointless attempting to equate crime rates in general between countries.

Different countries have different laws and the recording is vastly different between countries.

The easiest crime to detect and compare is murder because someone is obviously dead and as such is a serious recordable crime. It is also relatively easy to determine the method.

Jaywalking, for example, is a crime in some countries, others not and in other not recorded. And after all who gives a shit about it anyway.

Woof!

 

[mikey2much]

I don't care too much about pistols

Well, we've got people living in the country, too. Maybe not that big distances like your countrysides, but enough the police needs hours to get there. The more paranoid of them have very agressive dogs.

I understand that you've got guns, as the whole country is gun nuts and you feel better to have the same level of power. Because that's the real goal on weapons: not security, but power. Thinking power provides security.

But for home protection a good dog and a twelve gauge shotgun is about as good as you need.

 

[Que]

Not the other way round?

Surely you jest sir? This is most AJ-esque!

On this very page, a few posts up, you have a crystal clear example of someone posting;

Misrepresented facts

A lie about those facts

Two attempts at obfuscation and the above is now the third.

Your posts I believe.

Then to top it all off you post your mo, which is to have a predetermined conclusion and admit to preferring data which fits that predetermined conclusion; everyone can see, that’s exactly what you did here.

And another thing….



You don’t get to hand wave away, data just because it’s inconvenient to your preconceived conclusion.



Look dude, this is the internet, your personal circumstances are totally irrelevant to this or any other discussion, to say nothing of the above being an incredibly selfish attitude.

Yes I’ve also seen the stats and done the leg work to collate those stats….


The average American is far more likely to be;

Murdered in a mass shooting in a public place (school, Mall, cinema etc etc)
Murdered with a firearm
Injured with a firearm
Subjected to a crime involving a firearm
Accidentally killed with a firearm.
Your police officers are at least 10 times more likely to die as a result of a firearm related incident.
Than any other westernized nation and your stats are more like those of an African or South American nation.

And all that with no discernible reduction in crime rates against the person in general (robbery, rape etc etc.)

Woof!

None of that is true if you are neither involved in drug trafficking or a gang member.

Mall shooting? Really, this is a concern? More people are killed by cows.

More Americans are killed by guns because we have more guns More Salvadorians are killed by machetes because they have no guns.

Not considering all of the crimes that did not occur or were interrupted by the presence of a firearm is incomplete. Comparing murder rates country to country is silly when as I said, if you are not a gang member it happens rarely in our armed society.

How about instead of comparing other countries to America, you compare America to America, or any location in America to itself.

Crime is demonstrably down as gun-ownership is up. There is no way to parse that into anything but what it is. More guns not only does not equal more violence, more guns happens to coincide with less violent though of course you cannot show that that correlation is causative.

Correlation is not causation, but complete lack of correlation proves the opposite. If there had been more guns and more crime it proves nothing, but more guns and less crime proves at a minimum that there is no correlation between increased gun ownership rates and increased crime.

Florida is the best example. Prior to passing concealed carry the crime rate was rising fast and was one of the more dangerous places int he nation. In close incidence with the passage of the law all sorts of crime, notably car-jacking waned noticeably.

You believe what you believe so you look for support by only cherry picking the crime stats (murder by gun) that suits you despite a huge difference in culture compared to the areas in America where you are likely to experience gun violence.

Eliminate all stats from about 7 major American cities and your per capita gun death is lower than the UK.

 

[PoppingTom]

The easiest crime to detect and compare is murder because someone is obviously dead and as such is a serious recordable crime. It is also relatively easy to determine the method.

I just compared them by homicide rate.

Australia got 1.1, UK got 1.0, Ireland 1.2.

USA got 4.7, seems like even Liberia is better (3.2)

 

[PoppingTom]

Eliminate all stats from about 7 major American cities and your per capita gun death is lower than the UK.

The best value got New Hampshire between 2006 and 2010 - exactly like UK (1.0), now it's 1.7

Even near-empty states like Idaho, Montana or Oregon rarely come under 2.0, Alaska was best in 2009 (3.1), now it's 4.6

But let's put Louisiana with its 10.8 from the list (was 17.5 in 1996)....wouldn't do things much better, as 19 more states are above average.

Source:http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord

 

[PoppingTom]

Crime is demonstrably down as gun-ownership is up. There is no way to parse that into anything but what it is.

Well, then, it would be easy for you to back this up with links.