please remove

[StillStunned]

Not to go on, but.... I strongly encourage you to read my writing before passing judgment on it.
I don't do info dumping (as previously stated) and I think there's some confusion about what it is, out there.
Literally every single one of my stories begins with action, dialogue, and characters.
When someone tries to look clever, yet forgets to comment on key aspects of the writing, such as the dialogue (which I always have in spades), or the characters (who, for me, are real and very well portrayed), or the plot..... well, it makes me question how good they are. Or maybe I am confused about what an editor does?? LOL

I have in fact read one of your stories (your earliest one here, if I'm not mistaken), and I'm not passing judgment.

Your style isn't my favourite, but then again, my style probably isn't your favourite. There are established writers here, very successful ones, who'll proudly tell you they don't care about the technicalities of writing, only about storytelling. I'm not like that, but if they enjoy what they're doing, and their readers enjoy it, who am I to say they're wrong? I write my stories, they write theirs, and we all have happy readers.

As to what an editor does, well, that depends on the kind of editor. You have story editors and copyeditors, line editors, proofreaders - and even then the lines blur. With online printing, and the explosion of business communications, copyeditors and proofreaders mean different things to different people. But if you're looking for input on your plotting, structure and pacing, you'll want a story editor.

 

[SashaS_EroticaQueen]

On a related note to the above: any person that reads a scene from a much larger piece of work, knowing it is only a scene from a book, is not entitled to make remarks like, "we need to know more about this character". You would know more, if you read the whole story from the beginning, you (insert expletive). That's why I always insert an explainer at the start - this is a scene from a story about ... it is X pages long... the scene appears halfway through....

In that scenario, I think anyone would be well within their rights to say, "here, read the book from the start" - and if that is too hard for the smartass critic, that is their problem.

 

[SashaS_EroticaQueen]

I have in fact read one of your stories (your earliest one here, if I'm not mistaken), and I'm not passing judgment.

Your style isn't my favourite, but then again, my style probably isn't your favourite. There are established writers here, very successful ones, who'll proudly tell you they don't care about the technicalities of writing, only about storytelling. I'm not like that, but if they enjoy what they're doing, and their readers enjoy it, who am I to say they're wrong? I write my stories, they write theirs, and we all have happy readers.

As to what an editor does, well, that depends on the kind of editor. You have story editors and copyeditors, line editors, proofreaders - and even then the lines blur. With online printing, and the explosion of business communications, copyeditors and proofreaders mean different things to different people. But if you're looking for input on your plotting, structure and pacing, you'll want a story editor.

Contradicting yourself a bit, there. Because I certainly feel judged, reading your second sentence.

Well, I guess you're entitled to say what you said, without explaining yourself, too. Since I've said repeatedly that I am not here seeking actual criticism. I've also said I don't mind being pulled apart, if it helps me become a better writer. Then again, I pride myself on being super easy to read. I hate writers who are overly verbose, or who spend too much time constructing some clever way of saying something that could be said much simpler. And while I have a decent vocabulary that often stumps people I talk to in everyday life, I try to keep the language in my stories fairly simple.

It will vary a bit depending on the story, of course. When I read my previous books (I now have 6 published and 2 in the pipeline, with more developing in my head), I notice things that irk me, purely because I don't want all of my books to be the same. I mean, sure... readers get to love a person's style, but I wish to be a bit more versatile as a writer, and to change the narrator's voice - and thus, style - according to the story I'm writing. I've read many different books and continue to read more, so I'm not short of inspiration. So, who knows, maybe one day you will like something I've written.... hahahaha

 

[SashaS_EroticaQueen]

"I don't like you."

"I don't like your style."

"You suck."

Very synonymous statements, there. Please check out the definition of vitriol. I have unfortunately been subject of it in the past. I've had authors accuse me of posting "polished" work on a website, where I was posting chapters live - as written - for people to enjoy freely. The more people loved my story, the more some of these so-called authors hated me. They went to extreme lengths to spew hatred at me, and when I published the book and provided the link to it - with the website owner's approval - they complained and got the link removed. They then went to Amazon and reported my book for having hard core scenes, and got me banned.

I actually did not publish much for 10 years after that. I don't plan on ever letting someone get to me like that. BUT I will call it out, where I see it, and I will also stand up for anyone else who becomes the victim of it. I pray to the Universe and all the powers in it, that I never stoop so low, myself. There is nothing to be gained from hating on someone, just because you think (secretly) that they are better than you at something. Most likely, the person you hate isn't even aware of how good they are - we are all our own harshest critics, remember - and your hateful commentary will not make any sense to them, like it didn't make sense to me when it first happened..

Vitriol refers to bitterly harsh or caustic language or criticism. When directed toward authors, it represents intense hostility expressed through severe criticism. Imagine a writer who faces scathing attacks from the press, but never before with such vitriol1. In a metaphorical sense, ‘vitriol’ came to represent the harshness and bitterness of words or actions, reflecting scathing criticism, hostility, or spiteful language2. So, when someone hurls vitriol at authors, they’re using words as sharp as shards of glass.

 

[StillStunned]

Contradicting yourself a bit, there. Because I certainly feel judged, reading your second sentence.

What, this one?

Your style isn't my favourite, but then again, my style probably isn't your favourite

How on Earth is that judgmental? Do you expect everyone to love your writing? Sorry, but that's not the way it works. You yourself have said in this thread that you don't read badly written books - you think those authors don't think their writing is good? We all have our preferences, and yours and mine don't happen to align.

"I don't like you."

"I don't like your style."

"You suck."

Very synonymous statements, there. Please check out the definition of vitriol. I have unfortunately been subject of it in the past.

Again, what? How on Earth do you get from "your style isn't my favourite" to vitriol?

First you accuse me of passing judgment, even though I hadn't made any reference anywhere to your writing or to you as a person. In response I say that I've read one of your stories, but our styles don't align. Now all of a sudden I'm spewing vitriol?

 

[Bramblethorn]

"I don't like you."

"I don't like your style."

"You suck."

Very synonymous statements, there.

This is sarcasm, right? Please tell me it's sarcasm.

 

[lovecraft68]

"I don't like you."

"I don't like your style."

"You suck."

Very synonymous statements, there. Please check out the definition of vitriol. I have unfortunately been subject of it in the past. I've had authors accuse me of posting "polished" work on a website, where I was posting chapters live - as written - for people to enjoy freely. The more people loved my story, the more some of these so-called authors hated me. They went to extreme lengths to spew hatred at me, and when I published the book and provided the link to it - with the website owner's approval - they complained and got the link removed. They then went to Amazon and reported my book for having hard core scenes, and got me banned.

I actually did not publish much for 10 years after that. I don't plan on ever letting someone get to me like that. BUT I will call it out, where I see it, and I will also stand up for anyone else who becomes the victim of it. I pray to the Universe and all the powers in it, that I never stoop so low, myself. There is nothing to be gained from hating on someone, just because you think (secretly) that they are better than you at something. Most likely, the person you hate isn't even aware of how good they are - we are all our own harshest critics, remember - and your hateful commentary will not make any sense to them, like it didn't make sense to me when it first happened..

Vitriol refers to bitterly harsh or caustic language or criticism. When directed toward authors, it represents intense hostility expressed through severe criticism. Imagine a writer who faces scathing attacks from the press, but never before with such vitriol1. In a metaphorical sense, ‘vitriol’ came to represent the harshness and bitterness of words or actions, reflecting scathing criticism, hostility, or spiteful language2. So, when someone hurls vitriol at authors, they’re using words as sharp as shards of glass.

First off, you're taking a hell of a leap from what @StillStunned said to what you're implying he said. You started a thread about wanting criticism, but are overreacting to a simple statement that's not a judgment, but matter of personal preference.

Makes me wonder how prepared-and open to-actual criticism you are because if you consider this vitriol, then you've been pretty fortunate here so far.

Try getting some of these:

by Anonymous user on 09/27/2022

Another seven pages of dung by a tremendous talent free and hilariously infantile scribbler.
Nothing new from this schmock.

Perspective is a wonderful thing.

 

[SashaS_EroticaQueen]

What, this one?

How on Earth is that judgmental? Do you expect everyone to love your writing? Sorry, but that's not the way it works. You yourself have said in this thread that you don't read badly written books - you think those authors don't think their writing is good? We all have our preferences, and yours and mine don't happen to align.


Again, what? How on Earth do you get from "your style isn't my favourite" to vitriol?

First you accuse me of passing judgment, even though I hadn't made any reference anywhere to your writing or to you as a person. In response I say that I've read one of your stories, but our styles don't align. Now all of a sudden I'm spewing vitriol?

The statement is, to my mind, so nebulous and lacking substance, it makes no sense to say it, other than to put me down. You've identified nothing that one could improve on, or change. It isn't possible, because 'style' is a very broad term and you never defined what it was about it, that you didn't like. You also made that statement after reading one small sample of my work, from an author that has written so far eight books, three of them quite substantial. Nearly every one of my books is in a slightly different style. Some I can't point to, here, because they are under my real name, so you'll have to take my word for it.

And really, I came here to see if I can delete the entire thread, because it seems I have invited criticism and everyone has misinterpreted it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Try getting some of these:

by Anonymous user on 09/27/2022

Another seven pages of dung by a tremendous talent free and hilariously infantile scribbler.
Nothing new from this schmock.

Perspective is a wonderful thing.

Edit that down to "...a tremendous talent..." and you've got a great cover blurb!

 

[lovecraft68]

Edit that down to "...a tremendous talent..." and you've got a great cover blurb!

Under my new pen name "T. Schmuck"

 

[Bramblethorn]

The statement is, to my mind, so nebulous and lacking substance, it makes no sense to say it, other than to put me down. You've identified nothing that one could improve on, or change.

Because StillStunned wasn't trying to tell you that you should change your style to cater to their personal preferences. Getting into specifics would only have derailed into arguments about those specifics, dragging the discussion away from the point they were making.

It isn't possible, because 'style' is a very broad term and you never defined what it was about it, that you didn't like. You also made that statement after reading one small sample of my work, from an author that has written so far eight books, three of them quite substantial. Nearly every one of my books is in a slightly different style. Some I can't point to, here, because they are under my real name, so you'll have to take my word for it.

In a better world we'd be able to read every word of an author's output before forming an opinion. But time and attention are limited resources, and as an author the first impression you make with a reader may be the only shot you get at persuading them to keep reading.

 

[StillStunned]

The statement is, to my mind, so nebulous and lacking substance, it makes no sense to say it, other than to put me down. You've identified nothing that one could improve on, or change. It isn't possible, because 'style' is a very broad term and you never defined what it was about it, that you didn't like.

Very well. If you welcome criticism, how about this?

I don't like the your use of omniscient POV. As a reader, I don't feel engaged with the characters or the story. That's not to say it can't work - Dorothy Dunnett uses it very effectively in King Hereafter, for example - but it requires the author to build the engagement slowly, and make the setting and its grand events at least as important as the characters.

Not only that, you execute it poorly. You flit from one character to another almost from line to line. It leaves me, as your reader, feeling like I'm watching a tennis match, looking from side to side as things happen. You include characters' thoughts as if you're writing in deep 3P POV. You include value judgments about your characters.

This last element leads me to the next issue. Perhaps because you choose to use an omniscient narrator, "tell" far outweighs "show". This removes the reader even further from the narrative, until it reads like a poorly written summary of a much longer story. The important events in the story are glossed over as if they're sequels connecting scenes. As a reader I have no reason to care about Trevor or the other characters, because I don't know them. I've only seen them as I raced past.

You also made that statement after reading one small sample of my work, from an author that has written so far eight books, three of them quite substantial. Nearly every one of my books is in a slightly different style. Some I can't point to, here, because they are under my real name, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Nothing I saw in that one story gives me reason to want to read more. Remember how you said you don't read bad books? Well, I have better things to do with my time than read stories whose theme isn't my kink and whose author, quite frankly, doesn't seem to possess enough skill at either writing or storytelling to make me read something I'm not interested in.

And really, I came here to see if I can delete the entire thread, because it seems I have invited criticism and everyone has misinterpreted it.

Your post said that you welcomed criticism. What followed was an abstract discussion of giving and receiving criticism and the difficulty of engaging with readers who rarely comment. Then when I said - at your prompting - that I'd read one of your stories and your style didn't match mine, you demanded specifics.

Well, here you are. I hope you take my criticism in the spirit in which it was intended - note that I've phrased it in terms of my personal preferences - and that you're mature enough to consider it objectively. I'm only one reader, and if you have plenty of readers who enjoy your style then by all means keep writing for them. Don't change on my behalf.

But if it's true that you welcome criticism to help you improve as a writer, then I seriously suggest that you study some of the books on the craft of writing and editing.

 

[Voboy]

Well. This went about as I thought it would.

It also backs up a long-held belief of mine: that it's people who swear up and down that they Really Want Feedback who actually, secretly, only want feedback they agree with.

 

[lovecraft68]

Well. This went about as I thought it would.

It also backs up a long-held belief of mine: that it's people who swear up and down that they Really Want Feedback who actually, secretly, only want feedback they agree with.

I've been saying for years is that what some people want is Lit to come up with an "Only accept glowing, positive, and ego stroking feedback." feature.

 

[StillStunned]

It also backs up a long-held belief of mine: that it's people who swear up and down that they Really Want Feedback who actually, secretly, only want feedback they agree with.

I've been saying for years is that what some people want is Lit to come up with an "Only accept glowing, positive, and ego stroking feedback." feature.

I mentioned upthread that it takes skill to receive criticism, and that comes from practice. If all you ever hear is how great your writing is, without any useful pointers, it can come as a shock when someone points out weaknesses that you didn't know you had.

In an ideal world, we'd all receive regular constructive feedback, and be able to consider it objectively and learn from it to become better writers. But our writings are products of our own minds, and it's hard not to take criticism personally unless you've learned how.

But if you're not willing to ask for criticism in the first place, you'll never learn how to deal with it. The initial reaction might be poor, but at least it shows a willingness to learn.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The funny thing is that in the endless sea of trivial, boring topics that AH is being flooded with, this was perhaps the only topic I've seen lately that touched on some interesting subjects. Oh well.

@SashaS_EroticaQueen, you need to spend some time in this place before you jump to conclusions. I would also say that @StillStunned made only some general assertions about writing, editing and your own style. There was nothing dismissive in his statements or in his tone. If you were curious about why he disliked your style, then you should have asked him directly instead of seeing it as an attack on your writing. No one else has seen it as such. Maybe you are being too sensitive about your writing or maybe you need to get a feel of this place first.

Now, when he provided the explanation of why he finds your style problematic, you have the perfect opportunity to discuss it with him in a calm and civilized manner. Present your own arguments and you can be sure that many of us will chime in and eagerly discuss these things with you. No one here is attacking you, nor does anyone here have a reason to do such a thing. We are always eager for new faces on AH.

 

[Voboy]

Now, when he provided the explanation of why he finds your style problematic, you have the perfect opportunity to discuss it with him in a calm and civilized manner. Present your own arguments and you can be sure that many of us will chime in and eagerly discuss these things with you. No one here is attacking you, nor does anyone here have a reason to do such a thing. We are always eager for new faces on AH.

I agree.

But then, when the thread title was changed, I think that signaled a general lack of willingness to have a serious and constructive discussion of any kind.

 

[BellaBestia]

Please don’t delete this thread I’m learning so much both in the what to do and what not to do areas

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I agree.

But then, when the thread title was changed, I think that signaled a general lack of willingness to have a serious and constructive discussion of any kind.

It does look like that but I am hoping it was just some general impulsiveness from the OP's side, in combination with being new to this place. What the cat wrote seems so normal to me, but it could also be that I can't really tell anymore after all the drama we had on AH in the past. Maybe it's us who have grown numb.

 

[lovecraft68]

It does look like that but I am hoping it was just some general impulsiveness from the OP's side, in combination with being new to this place. What the cat wrote seems so normal to me, but it could also be that I can't really tell anymore after all the drama we had on AH in the past. Maybe it's us who have grown numb.

The thread was fairly tame but was headed down-as Voboy pointed out-the tired path of wanting to receive critique, but showing no ability to handle any and began getting defensive over someone simplay saying their style wasn't something that appealed to them, and stressed them as opposed to a blanket insult.

I think doing the "Please remove this" is a sign of someone who really isn't interested in being told what they could do to improve, which is too bad.

My early mentor here was a guy named Jamesbjohnson who could best be described as the Archie Bunker of the forum complete with not just being grumpy, but very anti=PC but in the way of trolling rather than I think he was actually like that, and boy, did the yahoos here bit on that.

But beneath the insults and rudeness, the guy knew writing, and he was happy to help providing you could handle the blunt force trauma he called feedback. He kept getting dared to prove he could write and finally created the pen name Noirtrash. His scores were meh, mostly because of trolls here and he wrote hard ass gritty shitty people and situations, but the bastard could write.

@ChloeTzang was also a bit of a disciple of his and the two of us certainly picked up some good stuff from him.

The ramble is to pretty much say, if you really want to learn how to get better, fuck your feelings and suck it up buttercup because you can't get up if you never allow yourself to be knocked down.

 

[StillStunned]

The ramble is to pretty much say, if you really want to learn how to get better, fuck your feelings and suck it up buttercup because you can't get up if you never allow yourself to be knocked down.

Early on in my career, I was part of a team where it was standard policy to always check each other's editing work. As a newbie, it taught me what more experienced colleagues were doing, and it exposed my own weaknesses. When I moved to my next job, I told my colleagues I wanted to continue this habit. More than 20 years later, I still work with colleagues if at all possible, for quality control and to make sure I don't get stuck in my ways.

What this has taught me is that, no matter how good you think you are (and no-one has such a high opinion of themselves as someone fresh from university with a nice shining Master's degree in their pocket), there are other people out there who know just as much, or even more.

If you learn from them, you'll be better for it. If you don't, you'll never improve, you'll find yourself stuck in a rut and you'll become more and more hostile to honest feedback.

 

[Voboy]

I mentioned upthread that it takes skill to receive criticism, and that comes from practice. If all you ever hear is how great your writing is, without any useful pointers, it can come as a shock when someone points out weaknesses that you didn't know you had.

I think there's a disconnect, sometimes, in different peoples' reactions to this whole topic: some people are perfectly willing to have weaknesses pointed out, and might even be aware of them already... but they just might not be interested in improvement.

I suspect that's the boat the OP is in: they don't believe there's anything wrong with their writing to begin with (as they've often implied in numerous threads), so in seeking "critique" they are not seriously looking to improve.

I have a certain sympathy there, because I'm kinda like that: I'm sure I have weaknesses, some of them quite significant. And I'm fine with people pointing out those weaknesses, but the thing is? I like my own stories. I enjoy writing them and reading them, so I'm unlikely to "learn from anyone's critique" with enough humility to actually change my style or my method.

Perhaps that's hubris, but I'm getting everything I want to get out of writing my stories here and I'm content that those stories stand up quite well on this site. I suspect that's why I don't mind criticism: because I don't really care about it enough to use it well. So maybe it's about learning how to take critique.

Or? Maybe it's about being self-centered enough to just not care about that critique.

Hence the disconnect: a critic might be very well-intended, and could well be aiming to help a writer get better... but if that writer isn't interested in getting better, it's all going to go pear-shaped. As always, honesty is the best policy: be clear on what you're looking for and how you're going to use it. In this case, I suspect the problem might be that the OP is not really honest about wanting to learn and improve. Which, again, is JUST FINE... but be up-front about it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The thread was fairly tame but was headed down-as Voboy pointed out-the tired path of wanting to receive critique, but showing no ability to handle any and began getting defensive over someone simplay saying their style wasn't something that appealed to them, and stressed them as opposed to a blanket insult.

I think doing the "Please remove this" is a sign of someone who really isn't interested in being told what they could do to improve, which is too bad.

My early mentor here was a guy named Jamesbjohnson who could best be described as the Archie Bunker of the forum complete with not just being grumpy, but very anti=PC but in the way of trolling rather than I think he was actually like that, and boy, did the yahoos here bit on that.

But beneath the insults and rudeness, the guy knew writing, and he was happy to help providing you could handle the blunt force trauma he called feedback. He kept getting dared to prove he could write and finally created the pen name Noirtrash. His scores were meh, mostly because of trolls here and he wrote hard ass gritty shitty people and situations, but the bastard could write.

@ChloeTzang was also a bit of a disciple of his and the two of us certainly picked up some good stuff from him.

The ramble is to pretty much say, if you really want to learn how to get better, fuck your feelings and suck it up buttercup because you can't get up if you never allow yourself to be knocked down.

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I am just trying to be a bit more cavalier as I believe that some people are overly sensitive about their writing and about posting in this arena of ours, even when they say they are ready for criticism. It takes time to grow proper calluses.
The OP is new to AH, and she says she is a woman even( with all the caveats of establishing gender over the internet). Well, in my experience here, our lovely women of AH are far touchier on average and far more prone to overreaction over a misunderstood comment, so I am trying to be a bit more understanding.
I realize I am possibly inviting a storm over what I am saying here as it could be understood as misogyny or something but it's my honest opinion, with all the respect and love for all the women we have here.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I am just trying to be a bit more cavalier as I believe that some people are overly sensitive about their writing and about posting in this arena of ours, even when they say they are ready for criticism. It takes time to grow proper calluses.
The OP is new to AH, and she says she is a woman even( with all the caveats of establishing gender over the internet). Well, in my experience here, our lovely women of AH are far touchier on average and far more prone to overreaction over a misunderstood comment, so I am trying to be a bit more understanding.
I realize I am possibly inviting a storm over what I am saying here as it could be understood as misogyny or something but it's my honest opinion, with all the respect and love for all the women we have here.

Ouch.

I think that's a bit over the top, but I won't say you're totally wrong. About three names instantly popped into my head, so there's examples in your favor.

But there's a few guys here to who I'd classify as thin skinned and defensive as well.

Takes all kinds, and we have all them kinds.

 

[Voboy]

our lovely women of AH are far touchier on average and far more prone to overreaction over a misunderstood comment,

.......and, suddenly, the thread went in a whole new direction!

I think I know what you're saying, and I think I agree with lovecraft: there is no shortage of overreacting self-professed men here, too. I don't even think the OP is necessarily overreacting... yet.