Pride, Prejudice, Insurance

[elsol]

Of course you also have doctors who took out masive loans, in the expectation they would be able to make incomes that would allow them to be paid off. I assume we will forgive their student loans when we set the rate they can charge at something rediculously inadequate to generate the income they would need. Or maybe we'll just garnish their wages until their debts are paid, that's a sure way to keep em on the job. Just what I want when I'm sick, Marcus Welby M.D> meets G. Gordon Liddy.

I'm sure that under this system of medicine... medical school and training must NECESSARILY be free.

There's a simple reason it must be made so.

Logic cannot support the premise that health care is a right. Health care is a service that is administered by another human being with the requisite skills and knowledge. To claim that healthcare as a "right" is to claim a right to the services of the health-care provider. In effect, this means you are claiming a "right" to a portion of that person's life – both a portion of the time already spent developing his skills, and a portion of the time spent practicing those skills on you.

Only through a mutual agreement, a contract, can one person claim a right to a portion of another person's life. Anything beyond that is either charity or slavery.

Universal medicine cannot allow costs to go up therefore it must control all pricepoints. This includes wages and rewards.

If there's no reward, why would I become a doctor?

A relative higher wage than a nurse... bullshit!

I'm in the private sector and I measure Responsibility versus Money when accepting a position.

One of my co-workers, a very intelligent and bright young man, looked at our boss in the face and said "You want to give me a laptop and pager? Fine, add 20k to my yearly paycheck or thank you very much the headaches aren't worth it."

What do you offer a young intelligent young person as a reward for going into a brutal, time-consuming field... a federal wage?

*LAUGH*

The government can't afford ME.

So I'm sure the step after universal healthcare is universally available education up to whatever level you want for all.

It is absolutely required by the system or else you can't get people as intelligent and compentent as I am to work for the government.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Wildcard Ky]

Here's an honest question that I don't know the answer to; Is there a country in the world where socialized healthcare is viewed as a resounding success?

I've seen articles that tell how other countries systems are in trouble. It's always the bad news that gets reported. Countries that have tax rates from 50-70% to pay for the system are in trouble. I linked an article to the Canadian troubles with the system. Is there an example of where the system works well? If so, what is the tax rate for that country?

I get tired of hearing people say something like "We need to be like Canada" (No offense meant to our canadian friends). Why do we need to try and emulate a system that doesn't work, has a 50% tax rate, and is going broke?

 

[yui]

I disagree. Catholics weild an enormous amount of power in this country, especially in the Northeast and West. Because a Catholic isn't in the Whitehouse doesn't mean there isn't a tremendous amount of legislative power there.

The Catholic church lashed out against Kerry for his pro choice stance. They said any priest that gave him communion would be committing a sin.

The Catholic church carries so much power that we have an Ambassador to the Vatican. Name any other religious group that we have an ambassador to.

I don't disagree with you, Ky. I know that the Catholic Church wields and enormous amount of power; however, so do the Evangelical/Fundamentalist such as Bush himself. I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe that you cannot legislate morality, and as a non-Christian, I am very concerned by the current fundamental religious fervor that permeates this administration.

And the reason there is an ambassador to the Vatican is the fact that it a sovereign state, not for religious reasons.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I'm sure that under this system of medicine... medical school and training must NECESSARILY be free.

There's a simple reason it must be made so.



Universal medicine cannot allow costs to go up therefore it must control all pricepoints. This includes wages and rewards.

If there's no reward, why would I become a doctor?

A relative higher wage than a nurse... bullshit!

I'm in the private sector and I measure Responsibility versus Money when accepting a position.

One of my co-workers, a very intelligent and bright young man, looked at our boss in the face and said "You want to give me a laptop and pager? Fine, add 20k to my yearly paycheck or thank you very much the headaches aren't worth it."

What do you offer a young intelligent young person as a reward for going into a brutal, time-consuming field... a federal wage?

*LAUGH*

The government can't afford ME.

So I'm sure the step after universal healthcare is universally available education up to whatever level you want for all.

It is absolutely required by the system or else you can't get people as intelligent and compentent as I am to work for the government.

Sincerely,
ElSol

Granted, but what do you do about the doctors you have now? they didn't get a free medical education, they took out loans and paid for it. Or do they just get the ole fuck you shaft?

This town is small, and I've been to all the doctors. They are, for the most part, older gents who are still working here because they enjoy their job. But if you federalize them, slap muli page restrictions on them, demand they treat everyone etc. etc. etc. the'll say see ya. Then what? Do rural areas juts do without until the new crops of free education doctors get graduated? What abou tthe guys currently in med school and close to graduation? Are you, the fed assuming their loan debts? What about specialists? Guys who have to have that much more time in school and that many more loans. What's the incentive to become a brain surgeon? If you'll be making the same as a Gp? Where's the incentive?

Frankly, if you're young, bright and have the ability to master med school, why not just become an engineer and make out like a bandit in a field where you don't have to put p with all the crap?

 

[elsol]

Here's an honest question that I don't know the answer to; Is there a country in the world where socialized healthcare is viewed as a resounding success?

I've seen articles that tell how other countries systems are in trouble. It's always the bad news that gets reported. Countries that have tax rates from 50-70% to pay for the system are in trouble. I linked an article to the Canadian troubles with the system. Is there an example of where the system works well? If so, what is the tax rate for that country?

I get tired of hearing people say something like "We need to be like Canada" (No offense meant to our canadian friends). Why do we need to try and emulate a system that doesn't work, has a 50% tax rate, and is going broke?

It depends on your idea of success...

The people think it's great... except for the doctors that leave the country and the people that have to leave the country to get the BEST care because capitilism is a brutally efficient forcing innovation and change.

The economists... not so much on the 'great' side.

The left ... GREAT IDEA!

The right ... You gotta be kidding me.

As with most things, it's a matter of perpsective.

If I can AFFORD better healthcare than a system like Canada can give me, I'm up shit's creek because it's basically illegal for me to buy it in the country.

If I can't AFFORD healthcare at all, then I'm spot on cause I can go to the doctor for every little thing (Yes, I know that... ask military personnel.. I used to go to the doctor for migraines... did I need to... FUCK NO! I could have taken a pill and moved on with my day... but hey, the doctor had much better goodies

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[thebullet]

comarade bullet

Hey Colleen: 'comarade bullet' says: Seig Heil!!

Do any of you care about the 45million uninsured people in this country? (The number comes from that extreme left organization, the US Chamber of Commerce). Aren't you even a bit embarrassed that in the richest country in the world, 15% of its people have no healthcare? Don't you think it is worth discussing.

Or would you rather call everyone who worries about such mundane things a Socialist and call them 'comarade' -whatever that means.

 

[elsol]

Granted, but what do you do about the doctors you have now? they didn't get a free medical education, they took out loans and paid for it. Or do they just get the ole fuck you shaft?

This town is small, and I've been to all the doctors. They are, for the most part, older gents who are still working here because they enjoy their job. But if you federalize them, slap muli page restrictions on them, demand they treat everyone etc. etc. etc. the'll say see ya. Then what? Do rural areas juts do without until the new crops of free education doctors get graduated? What abou tthe guys currently in med school and close to graduation? Are you, the fed assuming their loan debts? What about specialists? Guys who have to have that much more time in school and that many more loans. What's the incentive to become a brain surgeon? If you'll be making the same as a Gp? Where's the incentive?

Frankly, if you're young, bright and have the ability to master med school, why not just become an engineer and make out like a bandit in a field where you don't have to put p with all the crap?

Uh... Colleen.

Nobody said socialism wasn't as willing to fuck anyone as capitilists are to fuck the poor. The difference is socialism says 'We're fucking you for the good of everyone!'

The details haven't been thoroughly thought out... even the Canadian system was a creepy crawly thing that eventually became monolithic.

No social change has ever been made that didn't fuck someone but again remember "We're fucking some people for the benefit of a greater number of people!"

*shrug*

I don't agree with it... but I'm willing to trace out the thought process to see where it must lead.

Kinda like I'm happy to trace out Amicus's insane ravings... it's an interesting exercise.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Here's an honest question that I don't know the answer to; Is there a country in the world where socialized healthcare is viewed as a resounding success?

I've seen articles that tell how other countries systems are in trouble. It's always the bad news that gets reported. Countries that have tax rates from 50-70% to pay for the system are in trouble. I linked an article to the Canadian troubles with the system. Is there an example of where the system works well? If so, what is the tax rate for that country?

I get tired of hearing people say something like "We need to be like Canada" (No offense meant to our canadian friends). Why do we need to try and emulate a system that doesn't work, has a 50% tax rate, and is going broke?

I'm with El sol, it all depends on your perspective. If you're poor, it works like a champ cause you're getting some service, where you might get none without it.

I doubt the majority of tax payers will be singing it's praises in most cases.

Every system has flaws and for eveyone you find who sings its praises there is likely to be someone cursing it as the bane of their existance. If you federalize it over here, you get some intersting qundries. How bout abortion? Can't the government just end abortions without ever passing a law, simply by not training doctors in the proceedures or allowing them to charge for the service? How bout sex changes? Or is that right out? Probably depends on the prevailing political winds.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Uh... Colleen.

Nobody said socialism wasn't as willing to fuck anyone as capitilists are to fuck the poor. The difference is socialism says 'We're fucking you for the good of everyone!'

The details haven't been thoroughly thought out... even the Canadian system was a creepy crawly thing that eventually became monolithic.

No social change has ever been made that didn't fuck someone but again remember "We're fucking some people for the benefit of a greater number of people!"

*shrug*

I don't agree with it... but I'm willing to trace out the thought process to see where it must lead.

Kinda like I'm happy to trace out Amicus's insane ravings... it's an interesting exercise.

Sincerely,
ElSol

I think socialism is willing to fuck everyone for the benefit of an imaginary people. Strange how "the people" are always helped, but you can't find anyone who is one of "the people"most times.

Vargancies of politics I suppose

 

[elsol]

http://www.techcentralstation.com/102703C.html

Have fun... personally, I like the 'Most Pessismistic' survey and what they had to say about medical supplies.

Like I said, competition is not a bad thing if you're trying to move ahead.

If you're worried about leaving people behind then yeah it sucks... but I've always been willing to run people down to get what I want.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[cantdog]

Are you talking about Baptists or Catholics?

If you're going to criticize the Southern Baptists for being like this, why not the Catholics too? The Catholics have been doing this stuff for hundreds of years.

Doing what stuff? Telling the faithful what to believe?

Well, yeah. That's what Catholicism is about. Baptists, on the other hand, have always believed that each mind is its own church. Each congregation in the Baptist affiliation is free to follow or to blow off the decisions of the annual meetings and coferences. Same with each believer. It's what makes being a Baptist tolerable.

 

[elsol]

Do any of you care about the 45million uninsured people in this country?

And there's your ultimate failure.

No, we really don't fucking care. Most people don't really fucking care about things outside their door.

There are BABIES starving to death at a rate of something sick like 30000 thousand a day.

Two thousand young Americans are no more and we pay more attention to whether Angelina and Brad are really a couple. (I stole that from Boston Legal but it is my absolutely favorite thing on the war.)

Charity is fucking prime time television on two networks... let me repeat that... CHARITY IS ENTERTAINMENT!

This is why I find Amicus's ravings about 'charity' so fucking laughable... because both of you the left and right think people care.

No, bullet... I DO NOT CARE!

But at least, I've given some thought to it before I decided not to care.

Why don't I care? Because I don't like where it leads.

It's a risk game for me if I can afford it then I'd prefer the best care possible and sorry, I don't think I'll get that in the socialist system.

When I can't afford it, I'll be on the front line with you.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hey Colleen: 'comarade bullet' says: Seig Heil!!

Do any of you care about the 45million uninsured people in this country? (The number comes from that extreme left organization, the US Chamber of Commerce). Aren't you even a bit embarrassed that in the richest country in the world, 15% of its people have no healthcare? Don't you think it is worth discussing.

Or would you rather call everyone who worries about such mundane things a Socialist and call them 'comarade' -whatever that means.

One really has to wonder if there is anything at all you like about this country, other than bashing it.

I am discussing it and I'm pissing you off. Because i'm discussing it in pragmatic terms. And you just can't stand that. Because once the discussion is directed away from ideological bashing the US, and it's brought down to realistic applications, you get your balls caught in the meat grinder.

We may well be the richest nation on earth, I think Oggs would disagree with that, he has pointed out before we are the biggest debtor nation on earth, but I digress. Even if we are the richest nation on earth, I'm not rich, the majority of the poeple I know aren't rich, and they are the poor SOB's you want to rape out of the luxuries they can afford and the status they have achieved. There aren't enough rich to soak to fund this. And there is not enough money made by the poor to do it. So you have to get out your governmental blackjack and mask and go mug the middle and working class.

Like communism, socialism looks great on paper, but in application, the results haven't been nearly so pretty.

So rather than spit venom, why don't you address the practical problems I've brought up? Because you can't. It only works out great when it's an abstract idea. Once you add the human factor, it starts to fall apart and when you add overlaying it on a nation where lazie faire capitalism has spawned the majority of our good old day stories andmentality, you hit the wall of people saying fuck this.

A NAZI, by the way, drawns on National Socialist Ideology to answer all questions. I haven't drawn on any ideology to answer questions, in fact, I've not answered anything, merely posed questions with pragmatic application. You're spouting the communist/soiocialist party line. I think I'm well within bounds to call you comrade bullet, until you get off your high horse and address the issues in some meaningful way. You are way out of bounds with the Zeig Heil, since I haven't drawn once on national socialist ideology, doctrine or history in this discussion.

 

[elsol]

I think socialism is willing to fuck everyone for the benefit of an imaginary people. Strange how "the people" are always helped, but you can't find anyone who is one of "the people"most times.

Vargancies of politics I suppose

Oh yeah... like I've said before.

"Want to topple any pure political system... it takes one word, children."

My college professor on political systems laughed when I figured out how easy it was to win an argument against any political system he put in front of us.

Somewhere in every political system, the children get fucked.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Boxlicker101]

Years ago I worked for a state agency that administered payments to Medicaid. Presumably, it the US government were to be the insurer of everybody, the system would work much like Medicaid. I was appalled at the apparent greed of some of the providers, especially podiatrists and psychiatrists.

I was also appalled at how individuals would abuse the system. At least, that's how I saw it. Somebody earlier mentioned members of the military going to sick call. Medicaid recipients were much the same, going to a doctor for every little thing, including a simple head cold. Some of then went to a podiatrist to get their toenails trimmed. If I have a head cold, I keep my feet warm and take Contac. I trim my own toenails.

If we were to have national health insurance, I believe it would almost have to be limited to what health insurance companies refer to as Major Medical.

By the way, I may be wrong but I believe medical doctors can have their student loans forgiven if they go to underserved areas, such as some small towns or similar places.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Years ago I worked for a state agency that administered payments to Medicaid. Presumably, it the US government were to be the insurer of everybody, the system would work much like Medicaid. I was appalled at the apparent greed of some of the providers, especially podiatrists and psychiatrists.

I was also appalled at how individuals would abuse the system. At least, that's how I saw it. Somebody earlier mentioned members of the military going to sick call. Medicaid recipients were much the same, going to a doctor for every little thing, including a simple head cold. Some of then went to a podiatrist to get their toenails trimmed. If I have a head cold, I keep my feet warm and take Contac. I trim my own toenails.

If we were to have national health insurance, I believe it would almost have to be limited to what health insurance companies refer to as Major Medical.

By the way, I may be wrong but I believe medical doctors can have their student loans forgiven if they go to underserved areas, such as some small towns or similar places.

There is or was a progam wehre you could get your college tuition paid for by the government, but you had to agree to spend your first five years out of school working in a place where doctors were needed.

I remember a couple of cases where the doctors, once out, refused to go work in these places, and the government had to sue them for the money, but, it worked out better for the dotors involved, because the governement was getting charged a cut rate by the colleges and couldn't sue for more than they had been charged.

I don't know if they fixed the loop hole or discontinued the program though.

 

[elsol]

I was also appalled at how individuals would abuse the system. At least, that's how I saw it. Somebody earlier mentioned members of the military going to sick call. Medicaid recipients were much the same, going to a doctor for every little thing, including a simple head cold. Some of then went to a podiatrist to get their toenails trimmed. If I have a head cold, I keep my feet warm and take Contac. I trim my own toenails.

That was me.

*cough*cough* Down to the doctor I go... cause the prescription cough medicine is SOOOO much better than over the counter... even if all the doctor gave me was over-the-counter.

Plus... getting universal healthcare is easy.

Get businesses to lobby for it; that's how I pay for fine so if you sold my company's executives on it... what choice would I have?

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Colleen Thomas]

That was me.

*cough*cough* Down to the doctor I go... cause the prescription cough medicine is SOOOO much better than over the counter... even if all the doctor gave me was over-the-counter.

Plus... getting universal healthcare is easy.

Get businesses to lobby for it; that's how I pay for fine so if you sold my company's executives on it... what choice would I have?

Sincerely,
ElSol

Bussiness will never lobby for it, because it would put too many of them out of bussiness. Diversification baby. All the big corps have their fingers in medical/pharmacutical pies, and if you remove the pies, it hurts their bottomline a lot more than a few poor people not getting medical coverage does.

 

[elsol]

Bussiness will never lobby for it, because it would put too many of them out of bussiness. Diversification baby. All the big corps have their fingers in medical/pharmacutical pies, and if you remove the pies, it hurts their bottomline a lot more than a few poor people not getting medical coverage does.

So let me see if I understand this...

Bullet is trying to put me out of a job?

Oh well... now, I REALLY don't care!

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Colleen Thomas]

So let me see if I understand this...

Bullet is trying to put me out of a job?

Oh well... now, I REALLY don't care!

Sincerely,
ElSol

Of course not. You have to keep working, else there won't be enough tax revenue to support this monstrosity. You just won't see much of a return on your time and effort. But you will be able to get the exact same medical coverage and treatment as people who don't work.

The trouble with most egletarian society schemes I see is they don't aim to bring everyone up to the level of the high end. They set a mean and set out to drag everyone above down to the mean. And it works great on paper. Might even work great with a population of rats or cows, but when you add humans you get nasty litle things like ambition and ability. Those who have either aren't going to be happy at the mean. The average joe isn't going to be happy at the mean come to think of it, as most of us want to have more no matter how much we have. But the only way to keep it egletarian is to keep them there. And that way lies the gualg and GRU.

 

[yui]

They set a mean and set out to drag everyone above down to the mean.

Sounds a great deal like public education in the US, eh? No child left behind sort of stuff.

Just an observation that struck me while reading your post, not an attempt to flame.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Sounds a great deal like public education in the US, eh? No child left behind sort of stuff.

Just an observation that struck me while reading your post, not an attempt to flame.

No offense taken. the public education in this country sucks. Has since teachers decided their primary job wasn't education but socialization.

However, people scrimp and save to send their kids to private schools now. Pretty much anyone who can does. So it kind of illustrates why socialistic schemes don't work too well. People are generally willing to do whatever it takes to give them (or their offspeing) an advantage. When you set a free public school education to fit the lowest common denominator, people will look for an alternative. No one really wants to be the lowest common denominator.

 

[elsol]

*burp*

It doesn't matter, you know.

Bullet already said it... THIS government couldn't be trusted.

So who coud... the Democrats?

*LAUGH*

The difference between the Dem and Reps is the color of the kool-aid from my perspective.

Put me in charge... I'll slap some sense into everyone. (Where slap means shoot you and bury the bodies.)

Although, first thing... Monica is going to have to blow me... I need to see what the fuck the attraction was.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[LadyJeanne]

Bussiness will never lobby for it, because it would put too many of them out of bussiness. Diversification baby. All the big corps have their fingers in medical/pharmacutical pies, and if you remove the pies, it hurts their bottomline a lot more than a few poor people not getting medical coverage does.

Isn't there a way to work within the system? How much would it cost in taxes each year for the federal government to expand Medicare and Medicaid to cover the 45 million uninsured?

 

[elsol]

Isn't there a way to work within the system? How much would it cost in taxes each year for the federal government to expand Medicare and Medicaid to cover the 45 million uninsured?

135,000,000,000

45 million * 3000 (the basic value of my health coverage , decent but not the best).


Sincerely,
ElSol