Q for the poets: lyrics?

[Tio_Narratore]

That's ok, Tio, I'm glad you got it 2nd time.

Regarding Leadbelly, I believe that been able to syncopate a (presumably unsyncopated) air, testifies to his inborn lyrical/musical ability which makes him an exception to the rule.
Thanks for the information, I hope what I am writing is not taken as doctrine, I mean it only as helpful suggestions.

I've yet to come across an original Celtic piece that was syncopated. But in High School I was in an Irish folk group that was hired to play a St. Pat's gig at The Shamrock Bar & Grill. In Bedford-Stuyvesant. By midnight, the audience had syncopated everything we played. Worked pretty well, too.

I didn't take it as doctrinaire, but coming from the folkie side of things, there was/is a lot of great stuff around that arose with no formal training. The formal things you speak of are, I think, just a result of our reflecting on what we actually do. Much like rhetorical strategies in writing prose - they serve to make us aware of what it is we're doing, and do it better for the reflection.

 

[pelegrino]

Pelegrino, very interesting. Could you give me an example of a through composed piece or two? I'd love at least no classical one as well. I can read French well and Italian passably, if that helps expand the music you'd refer me to. Probably what I might attempt would be more akin to folk, let's say. The melody would have to be pretty simple, as I'm hoping to do it all myself. If at all.

Hi legerdemer,
It's 6 in the morning in London and I'm going soon to bed.
Most examples I can think of now are indeed classical, but I'm just about finishing one of my own (through composed) on lyrics by an author from the recent Spring Challenge and which I hope is not very classical. When I'm satisfied with it I'll put it up in a composers' forum where I participate tomorrow, and I'll send you the link to it.

 

[legerdemer]

Hi legerdemer,
It's 6 in the morning in London and I'm going soon to bed.
Most examples I can think of now are indeed classical, but I'm just about finishing one of my own (through composed) on lyrics by an author from the recent Spring Challenge and which I hope is not very classical. When I'm satisfied with it I'll put it up in a composers' forum where I participate tomorrow, and I'll send you the link to it.

Thanks, I look forward to it!

I'll reproduce a couple of specific questions here from my answer to Tio:

One of the things I was curious to get feedback on about were simple things - for example, does the music come first, or the lyrics? Or do they grow together?

 

[legerdemer]

I've yet to come across an original Celtic piece that was syncopated. But in High School I was in an Irish folk group that was hired to play a St. Pat's gig at The Shamrock Bar & Grill. In Bedford-Stuyvesant. By midnight, the audience had syncopated everything we played. Worked pretty well, too.

I didn't take it as doctrinaire, but coming from the folkie side of things, there was/is a lot of great stuff around that arose with no formal training. The formal things you speak of are, I think, just a result of our reflecting on what we actually do. Much like rhetorical strategies in writing prose - they serve to make us aware of what it is we're doing, and do it better for the reflection.

This is my impression as well - a lot of folk, bluegrass and jazz musicians were not formally schooled (many were, of course).

Which doesn't delude me into thinking it would be easy - that kind of talent is rare.

One of the things I was curious to get feedback on about were simple things - for example, does the music come first, or the lyrics? Or do they grow together? Any experience there?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Seek and ye shall find.

My Opinion
If you try to write lyrics to an already existing melody, some basic rudiments of music are necessary, imo.
Things like stressed and unstressed bits within a bar, syllabic or melismatic intention (on the lyricist's part), and also rhythmical values ie, semibreves, minims, crochets, quavers etc. all basic stuff.

Also equally important is a basic knowledge of archetypal poetic feet, iambus, trochee, anapest etc, as understood through English poetic usage (if we write English lyrics, that is).

If you start with no pre-existing melody, then the above rudiments of music are desirable but not necessary-just leave the melodist take care of your words, but still knowledge of poetic feet and stresses is indispensable, imo.

Last but not least:
A song dedication is always written bellow the header (if any) but above the title and preferably in an italianized form, for example:

a Giacomo B Giovannifiglio

...or something like that...

Most things progress from coarse to fine.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This is my impression as well - a lot of folk, bluegrass and jazz musicians were not formally schooled (many were, of course).

Which doesn't delude me into thinking it would be easy - that kind of talent is rare.

One of the things I was curious to get feedback on about were simple things - for example, does the music come first, or the lyrics? Or do they grow together? Any experience there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzkOFJMI5i8
START HERE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrg9E2YBgsI
LESSON 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNNX3f3_svo
LESSON 3

 

[pelegrino]

Thanks, I look forward to it!

I'll reproduce a couple of specific questions here from my answer to Tio:

One of the things I was curious to get feedback on about were simple things - for example, does the music come first, or the lyrics? Or do they grow together?

Hi legerdemer,
To answer quickly your question, in my opinion the best way to work on a song is by writing words and melody at the same time, but it is not possible always (for lack of ideas somewhere) and sometimes not advisable.
What I usually do is that I write words (or think about them) while I'm humming a tune. If I like the tune I keep it. If I don’t I discard it and later when I come to work more seriously on the music, I try for a better melody and that's where… all hell starts breaking loose.


I finally stayed up longer to add a new blog post and create a link as I promised which is here
First I must apologize to sheablue for uploading his lyrical work in another site without permission, but I can take it down anytime.

The poem by not having any perceivable rhythmic pattern presented me with a number of problems for which I had to make decisions.
Obviously the melody had to be in a quasi "through composed" fashion, but I wanted it to have some formal aspects of repetition (for unity, variety and musical coherence) so I decided to use the 1st stanza as a refrain and I ended up with a mixture of strophic and through composed result which satisfies me.
It is written for high female voice, guitar and string quartet throughout.
The mp3 is c. 4'30'' in duration and the pdf is 16 pages long.
What I suggest is that you print out the pdf and you view the soprano line as you listen to the mp3 so that you can see easily the way I worked on the words of a poem with no regular rhythm by inventing and manipulating rhythmic patterns to fit their irregularity.
After you are familiar with the melody and its rhythmic shape we can talk if you want in detail about other aspects of the whole composition.
Finally, I apologize for the sound quality. It is meant for human performers, but you know how it goes, most musicians without real expensive resources at their disposal can only use synths now a days.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I thought the aim was to find G rather than C.
Bach seems to have been very good at it as his (Air "on the G string") proves!


(Would be a terrific challenge to write lyrics to that tune, but 4 simultaneous verses at a time to fit all four lines of music as given in scrolling score).


(edited to correct typo)

Some women dislike the G (now that's an eye opener!)

I've yet to come across an original Celtic piece that was syncopated. But in High School I was in an Irish folk group that was hired to play a St. Pat's gig at The Shamrock Bar & Grill. In Bedford-Stuyvesant. By midnight, the audience had syncopated everything we played. Worked pretty well, too.

I didn't take it as doctrinaire, but coming from the folkie side of things, there was/is a lot of great stuff around that arose with no formal training. The formal things you speak of are, I think, just a result of our reflecting on what we actually do. Much like rhetorical strategies in writing prose - they serve to make us aware of what it is we're doing, and do it better for the reflection.

By midnight I'm surprised anyone was still compus mentis but perhaps Irish Bars are different over there!

 

[MirrorsImage]

From Wikipee.....



Song structure or the musical forms of songs in popular music are typically sectional, repeating forms, such as strophic form and is generally a part of the songwriting process. Other common forms include thirty-two-bar form, verse-chorus form, and the twelve bar blues. Popular music songs are rarely composed using different music for each stanza of the lyrics (songs composed in this fashion are said to be "through-composed"). This form can be used in any structural difference in melodies. A common format is verse, pre-chorus, chorus, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge (middle eight), verse, chorus.

Davidson and Heartwood list the formal sections found in songs as being the verse, chorus, bridge, hook, and refrain: "All songs are put together with some or all of these parts in a particular pattern."[1] The foundation of popular music are "verse" and "chorus". "Pop and rock songs nearly always have both a verse and a chorus. The primary difference between the two is that when the music of the verse returns, it is almost always given a new set of lyrics, whereas the chorus usually retains the same set of lyrics every time its music appears."[2] Both are essential elements, with the verse usually played first. Exceptions abound, with "She Loves You" by The Beatles being an early example in the rock music genre. Each verse usually employs the same melody (possibly with some slight modifications), while the lyrics usually change for each verse. The chorus (or "refrain") usually consists of a melodic and lyrical phrase which is repeated. Pop songs may have an introduction and coda ("tag"), but these elements are not essential to the identity of most songs. Pop songs often connect the verse and chorus via a bridge, which as its name suggests, is a section which connects the verse and chorus at one or more points in the song.

The verse and chorus are usually repeated throughout a song though the bridge, intro, and coda (also called an "outro") are usually only used once. Some pop songs may have a solo section, particularly in rock or blues influenced pop. During the solo section one or more instruments play a melodic line which may be the melody used by the singer, or, in blues or jazz influenced pop, the solo may be improvised based on the chord progression.

And here I am still figuring out the nuances of poetry ...

 

[legerdemer]

By midnight I'm surprised anyone was still compus mentis but perhaps Irish Bars are different over there!

We're just hardier over in the provinces. Especially up North.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

We're just hardier over in the provinces. Especially up North.

LESSON 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suqSXWu9ddI

it doesn't get simpler or sound better

LESSON
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3m1FKEt5UM
equally simple

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Some women dislike the G (now that's an eye opener!)



By midnight I'm surprised anyone was still compus mentis but perhaps Irish Bars are different over there!

Sorry for the U.S. reference. The neighbourhood of Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, New York, was well-known as an Afro-American ghetto. The clientele and owners of The Shamrock were all Blacks. They had decided to hold an "Irish" Saint Pat's Day, complete with corned beef and cabbage, Guiness, and Bushmills, and asked us to provide Irish music. By the way, in New York, the high point of night life began at midnight. Still does, as far as I know. New Yorkers still tend to take the advice of their famous mayor, Jimmy Walker: "Never go to bed on the same day you wake up."

 

[legerdemer]

LESSON 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suqSXWu9ddI

it doesn't get simpler or sound better

LESSON
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3m1FKEt5UM
equally simple

I couldn't see the first one (I'll try again later) but I like the second one, and it's sort of what I had in mind (recognizing my limitations, of course). I may just about have enough piano playing skills left... in my imagination at least.

Thanks.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I couldn't see the first one (I'll try again later) but I like the second one, and it's sort of what I had in mind (recognizing my limitations, of course). I may just about have enough piano playing skills left... in my imagination at least.

Thanks.

My point is anyone not paralyzed can tap out a tune for a song, just note the keys so another can write it down.

 

[legerdemer]

My point is anyone not paralyzed can tap out a tune for a song, just note the keys so another can write it down.

Yes, and there are music apps that record the notes etc. I know that.

My question really had to do with things like "is it easier to start with the music or with the words?" Pelegrino answered me not long ago on this thread.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Sorry for the U.S. reference. The neighbourhood of Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, New York, was well-known as an Afro-American ghetto. The clientele and owners of The Shamrock were all Blacks. They had decided to hold an "Irish" Saint Pat's Day, complete with corned beef and cabbage, Guiness, and Bushmills, and asked us to provide Irish music. By the way, in New York, the high point of night life began at midnight. Still does, as far as I know. New Yorkers still tend to take the advice of their famous mayor, Jimmy Walker: "Never go to bed on the same day you wake up."

Very continental, Spanish anyway!

 

[pelegrino]

Pelegrino, very interesting. Could you give me an example of a through composed piece or two? I'd love at least no classical one as well. I can read French well and Italian passably, if that helps expand the music you'd refer me to. Probably what I might attempt would be more akin to folk, let's say. The melody would have to be pretty simple, as I'm hoping to do it all myself. If at all.

Out of all JBJ's suggestions/lessons, one made some sense to me: Elgar's setting of "Ave Verum".
The rest of his examples are rubbish for a beginning song writer.

Elgar's example is quite instructional if you want to get involved with holy texts, regular rhythms and strophic forms.
If on the other hand you want to follow a more "unholy" procedure with slightly more inventive poetic rhythms/content, and "through composed" settings of such poetry (as you wondered about it), have a look here in the way Benjamin Britten is inspired by A. Rimbaud.
I personally don’t like this setting, much as have tried to all my life, but I love the poetry involved. (I find it too pompous and academic, not doing justice to the marvelous text), but that's only my taste. You may find it good. At any rate, it is making rhythmic sense of the words, but I find the melody poor and the orchestration too out of mood to suite Rimbaud's poetry.
In contrast to Britten have another look here and observe how much more sense Debussy makes out of S. Mallarme's poetry.

(My examples of "through composed" techniques have value only as far as these techniques are concerned, but they are also rubbish if taken as advice to a beginning song writer who should concentrate primarily on strophic forms and basic melodic/rhythmic structures as in the Elgar example -It's only because you asked- but any Mozart or Verdi Recitativo, out of any opera would be a better example for showing how verse with no regular rhythm may be set to music, and there are so many about!)

Bloody hell, I still can't think of an example of "through composed" song from the rock or folk tradition,

sorry about that. Perhaps someone else can help.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I don't have a great ear for it, but I haven't noticed repetition in Roy Orbison's "In Dreams" and Laura Nyro's "New York Tendaberry." Perhaps there's some my untrained ear is missing due to variation in phrasing. I think there maybe a few more, particularly among Nyro's songs, but I'll have to listen again with that in mind.

 

[legerdemer]

I don't have a great ear for it, but I haven't noticed repetition in Roy Orbison's "In Dreams" and Laura Nyro's "New York Tendaberry." Perhaps there's some my untrained ear is missing due to variation in phrasing. I think there maybe a few more, particularly among Nyro's songs, but I'll have to listen again with that in mind.

Thanks, I'll look these up.

 

[legerdemer]

Out of all JBJ's suggestions/lessons, one made some sense to me: Elgar's setting of "Ave Verum".
The rest of his examples are rubbish for a beginning song writer.

Elgar's example is quite instructional if you want to get involved with holy texts, regular rhythms and strophic forms.
If on the other hand you want to follow a more "unholy" procedure with slightly more inventive poetic rhythms/content, and "through composed" settings of such poetry (as you wondered about it), have a look here in the way Benjamin Britten is inspired by A. Rimbaud.
I personally don’t like this setting, much as have tried to all my life, but I love the poetry involved. (I find it too pompous and academic, not doing justice to the marvelous text), but that's only my taste. You may find it good. At any rate, it is making rhythmic sense of the words, but I find the melody poor and the orchestration too out of mood to suite Rimbaud's poetry.
In contrast to Britten have another look here and observe how much more sense Debussy makes out of S. Mallarme's poetry.

(My examples of "through composed" techniques have value only as far as these techniques are concerned, but they are also rubbish if taken as advice to a beginning song writer who should concentrate primarily on strophic forms and basic melodic/rhythmic structures as in the Elgar example -It's only because you asked- but any Mozart or Verdi Recitativo, out of any opera would be a better example for showing how verse with no regular rhythm may be set to music, and there are so many about!)

Bloody hell, I still can't think of an example of "through composed" song from the rock or folk tradition,

sorry about that. Perhaps someone else can help.

Thanks much, pelegrino, for your continued thoughtful response. Much homework for me, but fun research!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Out of all JBJ's suggestions/lessons, one made some sense to me: Elgar's setting of "Ave Verum".
The rest of his examples are rubbish for a beginning song writer.

Elgar's example is quite instructional if you want to get involved with holy texts, regular rhythms and strophic forms.
If on the other hand you want to follow a more "unholy" procedure with slightly more inventive poetic rhythms/content, and "through composed" settings of such poetry (as you wondered about it), have a look here in the way Benjamin Britten is inspired by A. Rimbaud.
I personally don’t like this setting, much as have tried to all my life, but I love the poetry involved. (I find it too pompous and academic, not doing justice to the marvelous text), but that's only my taste. You may find it good. At any rate, it is making rhythmic sense of the words, but I find the melody poor and the orchestration too out of mood to suite Rimbaud's poetry.
In contrast to Britten have another look here and observe how much more sense Debussy makes out of S. Mallarme's poetry.

(My examples of "through composed" techniques have value only as far as these techniques are concerned, but they are also rubbish if taken as advice to a beginning song writer who should concentrate primarily on strophic forms and basic melodic/rhythmic structures as in the Elgar example -It's only because you asked- but any Mozart or Verdi Recitativo, out of any opera would be a better example for showing how verse with no regular rhythm may be set to music, and there are so many about!)

Bloody hell, I still can't think of an example of "through composed" song from the rock or folk tradition,

sorry about that. Perhaps someone else can help.

I thought of you as I read a letter General Thomas Stonewall Jackson wrote. He told his correspondent the essential qualification for a military officer is getting out of bed at 3 oclock AM.

But let me say it another way, WAX ON, WAX OFF.

I'm a retired psychologist. We always talk to two people when we speak to anyone.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Writing music and lyrics are simple if you keep in mind we speak one word at a time and hear incrementally, too. A Mozart mass isn't a big glob of sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMwaiA581AQ

 

[pelegrino]

Writing music and lyrics are simple if you keep in mind we speak one word at a time and hear incrementally, too. A Mozart mass isn't a big glob of sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMwaiA581AQ

Wonderful example lesson in analysis and composition of a big glob of sound in my opinion (ie, the whole is bigger than the sum of the constituent parts).
Still, as you say, the process is incremental and the result reached word by word but the words here have rhyme and regular rhythm and the lesson is aimed at an already advanced composer familiar with melodic/rhythmic construction, imitative and manipulative techniques of the material at hand, harmony, instrumental timbres and capabilities of instruments and voices and orchestral procedures in general. So it is a master class given by Mozart (which historically never took place, by the way, and if it had it would have been a much-much longer lesson-even in this short example the advanced student protests: "I don’t understand!").

If instead of this movement "Confutatis", the material for a lesson was chosen from the 2nd movement of the same work "Kyrie Eleison", what would your opinion be?
We don’t have to think of words in this case or rely on them for an aid to melodic/rhythmic invention. These two Greek liturgy words (and the variant "Christe Eleison") are the whole text of the movement with no preconceived ideas of rhythmic regularity except perhaps that in Greek they are both dactylic in character, nothing else. Then what?
Here is where the musical genius assumes full responsibility of all matters, and one as such geniuses (Mozart) chooses to solve the absence of words by doing one of the most advanced/difficult things that can be done in composition:
He writes a double fugue on those two words.
If you think that the creative process (in his mind) can be explained to an advanced student of fugue solely by analytical methods, you are welcome to continue.

I thought of you as I read a letter General Thomas Stonewall Jackson wrote. He told his correspondent the essential qualification for a military officer is getting out of bed at 3 oclock AM.

But let me say it another way, WAX ON, WAX OFF.

I'm a retired psychologist. We always talk to two people when we speak to anyone.

Give your psyche a rest, stop tormenting it.

 

[legerdemer]

I'm a retired psychologist. We always talk to two people when we speak to anyone.

Or three or five...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Or three or five...

I'm aware of 2, could be more, I cant discredit your claim, but I know of 2.