Queer School

[candt2004]

Eliminate Bullying?!!!

Hi all-

I am visiting here as a favor to Mermaid. It is not my intention to intrude or speak for those in the GLBT community as I am straight. However, I am a teacher at an all-boys catholic high school (not just for catholics), so I am commenting on the school situation itself.

Unfortunately, bullying is a fact of life, especially amongst teenagers, in our society. We have small classes, strict rules, a dress code (uniforms), and the luxury of being able to send malcontents to other schools, and we still have bullies. I don't know of any gay students here, and there is a reason for that. Life would be very difficult for them.

I AM NOT condoning this behavior! In fact, I am one of the "discipilinarians" that addresses such issues. No matter how dilligent we are, we cannot eliminate the issue completely. Therefore, the idea of providing a safe-haven for ANY student who feels like an outcast is a noble venture. Its not segregation, nobody is FORCING anyone to attend or excluding anyone from attending, its simply an alternative.

Good luck with the school!

 

[Raimondin]

Re: Eliminate Bullying?!!!

I AM NOT condoning this behavior! In fact, I am one of the "discipilinarians" that addresses such issues. No matter how dilligent we are, we cannot eliminate the issue completely. Therefore, the idea of providing a safe-haven for ANY student who feels like an outcast is a noble venture. Its not segregation, nobody is FORCING anyone to attend or excluding anyone from attending, its simply an alternative.

Thanks for your input regarding this behavior issue. That was my whole point in my posts that we cannot eliminate the issue completely. Hopefully this "alternative" method will be the answer (for the time being). Let's hope.

 

[John Doe]

Re: Eliminate Bullying?!!!

Hi all-

I am visiting here as a favor to Mermaid. It is not my intention to intrude or speak for those in the GLBT community as I am straight. However, I am a teacher at an all-boys catholic high school (not just for catholics), so I am commenting on the school situation itself.

Unfortunately, bullying is a fact of life, especially amongst teenagers, in our society. We have small classes, strict rules, a dress code (uniforms), and the luxury of being able to send malcontents to other schools, and we still have bullies. I don't know of any gay students here, and there is a reason for that. Life would be very difficult for them.

I AM NOT condoning this behavior! In fact, I am one of the "discipilinarians" that addresses such issues. No matter how dilligent we are, we cannot eliminate the issue completely. Therefore, the idea of providing a safe-haven for ANY student who feels like an outcast is a noble venture. Its not segregation, nobody is FORCING anyone to attend or excluding anyone from attending, its simply an alternative.

Good luck with the school!

So? Uniforms and class sizes aren't the only things that can be addressed. The main thing is addressing the needs and impulses of the individual who exhibits antisocial behavior.

Additionally, the environment you describe is abnormal (particularly in the fact that it is restricted to one gender) and is precisely the authoritarian, totalitarian and as you said yourself, disciplinarian treatment by parents and other authority figures that fosters similar (though more crudely exhibted) behavior in children.

Bullying is a power trip that's learned from thier leaders.

Bullying cannot be eliminated under the current conditions, but the conditions need to be changed anyway.

 

[Mermaid]

Ok, Stup, I'll bite. What do you think should be done, specifically, to change the habits of bullies? How do you think the situation should be treated?

You have argued with everyone who put any ideas here. So what do you think should be done? Instead of slamming those that are trying, why not add to the solution and put in some constructive input? You seem to think you have the answers, so please do enlighten the rest of us?

Instead of being the bully on this thread, try giving your ideas on helping the situation?

 

[TexasJay]

In support of

Stuponfucious, I believe you are an expert on the topic of bullying, based on your posts.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the purpose of school is to provide a learning environment. That's what Mermaid's friend is proposing to do - provide an environment where these kids can learn. I applaud the effort.

And if her friend is anything like Mermaid, I am certain that her friend has considered the potential consequences, but has the courage to face those challenges when they arise. The support of people like those on this board would certainly be welcome, rather than any negative suggestions as to why they shouldn't try or why they won't succeed.

 

[SweetErika]

Re: In support of

Stuponfucious, I believe you are an expert on the topic of bullying, based on your posts.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the purpose of school is to provide a learning environment. That's what Mermaid's friend is proposing to do - provide an environment where these kids can learn. I applaud the effort.

And if her friend is anything like Mermaid, I am certain that her friend has considered the potential consequences, but has the courage to face those challenges when they arise. The support of people like those on this board would certainly be welcome, rather than any negative suggestions as to why they shouldn't try or why they won't succeed.

Look, I rarely agree with Stuponfucious. This is one of the only threads in which I recall agreeing with SOME of his points on, in fact. His style is abrasive IMO, but damn if he doesn't make me think...A LOT. I hope this is an environment where we can respectfully express our opinions, discuss, and debate. When you post something, you have to expect people to read it, think about it, and respond with their opinion. If you want everyone to agree and support everything you say, stick to the Playground. No one's being attacked, bullied, or treated with disrespect here. If you have a problem or need clarification on what's acceptable here, ask Etoile or Queersetti.

 

[Never]

1. There will be bullies in the charter school as well. It doesn't take too much effort to notice gays like to beat one another up.

2. TexasJay, you can disagree with Stuponfuscious to your hearts content but if you think he's a bully, you're wrong. He's said nothing improper on this thread.

 

[TexasJay]

Open minded

You mean it's ok for Stuponfucious to disagree, but not for me to disagree with Stuponfucious?

Interesting perspective.

 

[ethicalslut]

While I could debate educational policy and theory and practice for hours, I'm a bit gloomy this evening and not really up to it.

So I'm going to ask some factual questions in case people ARE interested in referring potential students...

Where in Wisconsin? Wisconsin is a kinda-big state; I lived there for years. Milwaukee? Madison? Spread Eagle (fer real, it's up by da U.P., Mapquest it if ya don't believe me)? Hudson? La Crosse? Green Bay? Stevens Point? Sheboygan? Rhinelander? Hurley? Wauwatosa? I'm assuming somwhere in the Milwaukee- Madison part of the state, but you never know. If it's a confidentiality thing, 'sall good.

The way you said "Wisconsin" and not a specific part of the state makes it sounds like it's a regional/state thing... would it be a boarding-style school or something, accepting students from other parts of the state? From out of its home district?

Is it queer-only or queer-oriented? Could an interested straight student attend (for example, if he/she has close queer friends and want to stay in school with them) and have his/her needs met?

Best of luck!

 

[Mermaid]

Re: Re: In support of

I hope this is an environment where we can respectfully express our opinions, discuss, and debate.

By your own statement, Texas Jay has a right to post his own opinion, including feeling like Stuponfucios is behaving like a bully.

I believe in free speech, which includes allowing others who disagree with me to say their piece. AND includes those who feel Stuponfucious is bashing everyone that says anything contrary to himself, and have the right to call him out on it.

When I started this thread I NEVER thought it would turn into an angry debate of what's wrong with having a school like this. I posted it in loving support for something I believe will help some kids have a better education.

If you disagree, that's fine, don't send your kid there.

But there's no need to say it's a bad idea to try it. (Of course, you can, free speech and all...)

If someone has a solution for bullying, present it! Otherwise, accept the things you can not change and change the things you can.

 

[sexy-girl]

Re: Open minded

You mean it's ok for Stuponfucious to disagree, but not for me to disagree with Stuponfucious?

Interesting perspective.

she said you're free to disagree with him ... but that he's not a bully

you're free to disagree with her though too ... that's the way this stuff works

1. There will be bullies in the charter school as well. It doesn't take too much effort to notice gays like to beat one another up.

i agree with that ... but then the bullying probably wouldn't be so directed to their sexuality

i wouldn't of gone to one of these schools if i had a chance too ... but then i didn't really have any real problems while i was at my school (only one person knew i was gay) ... i don't think these schools would be needed for most gay teens

 

[JustineCredible]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Slow on the uptake?

I didn't say anything even close to that. In fact, my stance on it is tougher than yours. You'd rather remove the 'special' students and let the mainstream kids suffer at the hands of the bullies who continue thier antisocial behavior with impunity.



Teen suicide in general is high.

And everyone comes to terms with thier sexuality eventually. It's called puberty.

Not true for some gay teens. Myself included. I knew as a teen that I was different. But for sometime I couldn't or rather, didn't want to, put my finger on it.
I too was bullied, picked on and called names. Some were sexually charged, some not.
I didn't come to terms with my sexuality until much later in life. I had tried for a long time to assimilate into mainstream. I married, had a child and still didn't accept myself for who I was.

My dilema isn't all that unusual either. I have heard from a number of friends.

How can I focus on it too much when that's the entire concept behind your plan?

Yes, I'm aware of teachers bullying as well, but I said we need to eliminate bullying, period.

All teachers should be trained for such problems. Mainstream or 'straight' kids don't have it perfect either.

Nice sentiment really, but eliminating bullying altogether is rather idealistic.

That's precisely what you're doing though. You're saying remove the kids (and only certain ones) from the problem, instead of eliminating the problem hanging over them.

I know what you are saying, really I do, and to some extent I actually agree. It would be nice to just eliminate the bad influences. But realistically, it's just not that easy.
Sure, I'm not so sure on how I feel about seggrating gay/different students into their own school either. I agree it might backfire dramatically.

But, on the other hand, it would allow those students a "safe place" to go to school and learn without constantly being afraid for their safety between classes.

I know what that is like. Twenty years ago when I was in high school, I was stalked and beaten up by these two sadistic girls. They came from a bad part of town and misinterpreted my shyness for being "stuck-up." They interpreted my fear of them as an attitude of superiority. On more than one occassion they cornered me, punched me, stole my things, trashed my locker (inside and out) and even stole my street clothes while I was swimming in PE. It was humiliating and dehumanizing. They scrawled "Dyke" on my hall locker in lipstick.
And all the while I was terrified. I still hadn't accepted my own sexuality and there they were violating it in front of everyone.

I remember begging my mother to send my to this private school in town. I knew a few of the other students there and got along with them well. I wanted so badly to just get away from these two girls. I cried a lot from that experience. I'm sure it had a lot to do with the fact that I just woudn't allow myself to accept my sexuality for much longer than necessary.

But in rhetrospect, I did gain a lot of inner strength from that experience. It made me fight my inner weaknesses as well as physical weakness. I know that it challenged me to do things in my life that back then I never would have imagined.

This is why I am torn. I know many kids, straight, gay/different in anyway all get teased at one point or another. I know that from it some come out stronger, but some don't. Some don't manage to survive it at all. It's those kids for whom I worry.
My own son is now in high school. But he doesn't get teased, nor does he ever do the teasing. He's well liked, popular. Something I wasn't when I was in school. I was shy and reserved. He's outgoing and gregarious. I had a learning disability that wasn't discovered until I got into college, he has a natural knack for learning.
Yeah, he's the kind of kid I was a bit jealous of in school.
The good part was that when I was in school, I at least had a really diverse base of friends. I had friends from every "cliche" so at least I was able to insulate my feelings whenever the attacks came. Although these girls were really good at singling me out whenever my friends weren't around, I was still able to pick myself up and search out the safety of my friends later. I was able to bounce back.
Not all kids are able to do that, though.

 

[Algol]

Ok, let me address another point of view.

Let me call "normal" people the ones that are mainstream, and "different" the ones that not (for their sexuality, race, lifestyle, whatever)

Mainstream schools hold "normal" people, and alternative schools hold "different" ones. That's ok.
What I think is that we are splitting society in two: the mainstream and the "different"
"Different" students will confront another problem in the future: mobbing at work. Because "normal" people studied at mainstream schools, and "different" people not.
This would end in "differents" working at companies only for "different" people, and eventualy moving to suburbs only for "differents"

That is called segregation. Even if it's self-segregation.

I think it's better to spend this effort and money to educate society to integrate people, rather than to alienate the "differents", even if it's done for their own good.

 

[Regis2001]

Okay. I've read through this thread, I've considered the points made, and I've formulated a concise, expressive and (I think) conclusive argument which will finish this debate once and for all.

But I'm not going to post it, because I changed my mind.

I think this is a good idea. I was bullied at school, mostly because as the school was in terminal decline and I was one of very few smart kids in a realm of utter fucktards. Or maybe that's just my memory playing tricks on me. Whatever. The point is, there I was introverted, fearful of human contact and not a nice person to be around. Then the school finally hit rock bottom, closed down and I was moved to a different school. That move gave me a chance to change. I started (slowly, but I started) talking to people. I made friends. I got away from the mindless bullies, one of whom picked on me ceaselessly because of a single unkind remark I made to her in my first year on a very bad day, which I never repeated. It was a positive experience.

I was never picked on because of my sexuality - I never even realised it until 6th-form college, by which time my friends had already guessed - but I feel my experience holds true. I moved school, and I found people like myself with whom I could socialise. This was a Good Thing. People are clique-ish by nature, we prefer to establish our little groups with similar interests and experiences. We thrive in these groups. Therefore, I support this school and wish it and its' pupils all the best.

 

[John Doe]

Okay. I've read through this thread, I've considered the points made, and I've formulated a concise, expressive and (I think) conclusive argument which will finish this debate once and for all.

But I'm not going to post it, because I changed my mind.

Tease.

 

[Regis2001]

Tease.

And you love me for it, baby.

 

[TAG95]

I grew up in the Waukesha - Milwaukee area I knew kids who went to "alternitive" schools I beleive it was called Crossroads. It was more of a last chance for some. For my friends it was really benifitial.

 

[John Doe]

Ok, Stup, I'll bite. What do you think should be done, specifically, to change the habits of bullies? How do you think the situation should be treated?

You have argued with everyone who put any ideas here.

So what do you think should be done? Instead of slamming those that are trying, why not add to the solution and put in some constructive input? You seem to think you have the answers, so please do enlighten the rest of us?

Again, asked and answered. But to expand on my suggestions, we ought to look to the parents as well, for most bullies come from parents who were/are bullies.

And I think "slamming" is a rather strong word.

Your last paragraph is personal and not conducive to dispassionate debate, so it is disregarded.

 

[Teal]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but even if there're good intentions behind this, isn't it like segregating them from society? Wouldn't "normal" people see them like "those weird people from that strange place"? and wouldn't they end isolating themselves from the rest of society, instead of being part of it?

really that would also be like taking the mentally handy captedkids out of public schools and send them to regin 4 type stuff.....

Its just a school where ppl can go to be who they are and dont have to be percicuted(cp) for who they are.

its like if my job was to move me to another location cause iam surrounded by straight ppl and iam bi..

I dont think thats segregation of any sort.

Originally posted by Algol I think it's better to spend this effort and money to educate society to integrate people, rather than to alienate the "differents", even if it's done for their own good.[/B]

You cant change how ppl view things, thats just like trying to change how a black man feels twards white ppl.

You can not chanve ones views

And its not alienateing the "differents" its been going on for ages.

you got the rich only school and then you got the school downtown, you got the public schools then you got the catholic schools(and other religious schools), you got the school for the handycapted(sp) and then you get the point.

theres a school for each person, race, nationality, religion, and so on its not just one school thats making a difference in the world theres more schools of "difference" than you know.



you cant consider something alienateing thats been going on for years.

just my 2 cents thats as far as i got and iam going to bed

 

[Teal]

A dress code as well. I think those would also help many other discipline problems besides bullying.

that would be called a private school

and incase ppl dont understand what seggrating means its forcefully putting someone in a situation where they dont want to be in....sence when were school a seggrating kind(except for the whole slave era).

ca pich

 

[JustineCredible]

that would be called a private school

and incase ppl dont understand what seggrating means its forcefully putting someone in a situation where they dont want to be in....sence when were school a seggrating kind(except for the whole slave era).

ca pich

School uniforms DO NOT equal private schools. Chicago Public schools have required uniforms for at least five years now and it seems to work for them.

 

[JustineCredible]

Ok, before we get too out of hand here: Here's a link to the school in New York that was the first to call itself a "Gay High School."

as well as information taken from their website.

http://www.hmi.com

>>Our mission



The Hetrick-Martin Institute (HMI), Home of The Harvey Milk High School, believes all young people, regardless of sexual orientation or identity, deserve a safe and supportive environment in which to achieve their full potential. HMI creates this environment for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth between the ages of 12 and 21 and their families.

Through a comprehensive package of direct services and referrals, HMI seeks to foster healthy youth development. HMI's staff promotes excellence in the delivery of youth services and uses its expertise to create innovative programs that other organizations may use as models.<<


>>Q: What's the Harvey Milk High School?

A: The Harvey Milk High School is an inclusive voluntary public high school focusing on the educational needs of children who are in crisis or at risk of physical violence and/or emotional harm in a traditional educational environment. The Harvey Milk High School has been in existence for almost two decades, and is now a four-year, fully-accredited high school. 95% of HMHS students graduate, well above the NYC average, and over 60% of HMHS students go onto advanced programs or college.<<


>>Q: Why can't at-risk children remain in their current schools? Isn't this segregation?

A: These are children that have been in traditional schools, but have needed to leave or have dropped out because of physical violence and/or emotional harm. Thanks to HMHS they have a safe place to learn so that they can graduate with an education, a diploma and their lives ahead of them. Being in a separate space during the school day doesn't mean that these students will never learn how to adjust to the demands of the larger world. Every day they face real-life pressures, including harassment.

It is not segregation to remove a child from a dangerous situation in order to give them a chance to learn safely. HMHS is a successful refuge for a small portion of youth, who have fled unsafe schools in order to secure their right to a safe educational environment; no one is arguing for a totally separate school system. <<

 

[Netzach]

And that, friends is the bottom line.

I love the idea of charter schools. I think holding back a kid in the name of fairness from his or her potential is kind of criminal. Kids are not pawns in some political game, they are people with a range of potential, and some kids will never reach that potential in the same environment as other kids, whether you are talking about someone with a learning disability, someone who needs to be tracked in an accelerated program, or someone who is at-risk.

The job of schools is to educate, not to enforce a mediorcre standard for the society.

In my very working-class neighborhood an excellent charter school was closed by the school board in the late 80's. The reason? The kids were doing too well, it wasn't fair. These were not wealthy kids, these were intelligent and exceptional working class kids who should have been going on to the better colleges. I think a program like this today would have a better shot.

The kids going to Harvey Milk, and I met them in high school, they did a program at our assembly-- would not have stood a chance in most NYC area schools, public OR private. They would not have done well in my extremely "liberal and enlightened" private school, where homophobia was the last "ok" prejudice. I could tell you this even as a 17 year old. If HMI has a 95% graduation rate, well, fuck, it's got to be a good thing. We can argue abstractions all day long, I want my community to be educated, graduated, and given a fair chance, not only the kids who manage to closet themselves most successfully, but the flamboyant, creative and brilliant souls who just can't do that, too.

 

[JustineCredible]

Glad to have been of service in this. Hope the info helped.

Justine

 

[TexasJay]

Maximizing potential

What a concept!

I had the good fortune of attending a college prep high school, where I could take college level coursework if I showed the potential. My grades were there, and I had to ask to get into those courses.

I was bored in grade school. How I wish I could have had opportunities outside the 'mainstream.'

To treat all kids as a homgenous commodity is a mistake. In school, they need the opportunity to explore, and expand their minds.

I agree that bullying in school shouldn't be tolerated. I respectfully disagree with the idea that children should be limited or held back, or be made the test subjects, until acceptance happens.