Queerness--Nature vrs Nurture

[emap]

The biggest problem is simply nobody knows, there still is no way of telling if a person will be homosexual straight or bi until they themselves figure it out. Even the way a person acts is not a good determiner, I worked with a guy we all thought was gay, I mean seriously, he would help us women put makeup on, we trusted him to go into the bathroom with us if we needed help with a pass out, the male ones the guy customers would help, females we had to do it, very odd.

Everyone thought he was gay, nobody asked him, he had women come and see him at work, left with them often after work, but he was never more than a gal pal to them in front of us. He made a pass at me is how we found out he was straight.

I never did answer the question either my bad, it is nature and nurture, nature because the hormone levels of mom determines most everything that happens to the baby. The problem lays in it is not just hormone levels of mom, otherwise all of the kids of a farmer would come out the same besides male or female. According to most the brain of a baby is simply a big sponge it absorbs everything around, to some if dad is the most caring of a son the son is most likely going to be homosexual. They also say if you never put your baby in the crib they are either going to be a porn star or a serial killer.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Just a bump.

Three more votes until fifty, then I'll report and comment. Like I know you are all waiting with baited breath

---or baited hooks?

 

[underguy1]

For me it was completely nature. I'd never even heard of male to male sex but seeing my best friend's cock swelling up I knew exactly what to do with it and tasting his cum seemed just right.

I knew pretty soon after that that I wanted to be fucked as well.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

49 votes

Please continue.

 

[TomBoner]

Please continue.

There ... 50! Now lets hear!

Nature I think provides the hormonal inclination for gay, bi, or fully straight ... but nurture needs to allow people to go in their own direction. Unfortunately, the USA society too often discouraged anything else than fully straight.

 

[infinity706]

There ... 50! Now lets hear!

Nature I think provides the hormonal inclination for gay, bi, or fully straight ... but nurture needs to allow people to go in their own direction. Unfortunately, the USA society too often discouraged anything else than fully straight.

It's changing, though. Of course, it's already acceptable to a large segment of the population that 2 women fucking each other's brains out is ok. Honestly, if you put up a ballot measure, specifically allowing 2 women to marry, it would probably pass in a lot of states. It's the 2 guys that a lot of people get hung up on. It's always been that way, though, and a lot of the early sodomy laws, as well as the biblical references that people cite, are pointed in that direction.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Okay!

I'll state my opinion then link an on-line article about the topic. I always felt queer and was raised in a very churchy environment. I've spoken about this before on other threads. Because of this I fought myself for years. Tons of guilt until recently--God does not make queers. Then I figured out there was no God. So much for that (and certainly another debate). Thing is, all of that still is with me, and I must deal with it. What we were raised with has an affect on us. Parents be warned.

I do not think environment had a factor on my lesbianism. I have always felt this way. Girls dolls playing with my girl dolls. Crushes on my female teachers in elementary school. All the girls wanting the male teen stars, I wanted the female teen stars. In high school I loved the girls locker room , and the cheerleaders. We would sneak out to watch the drill team practice, not the football team. I have been a queer as long as I can remember.

I liked holding hands with my female friends when I was prepubescent. I always preferred female company. Since I can remember, not that all of those mean anything. For me, I think I was born queer despite what my environment tried to force upon me.

There was/is no denying what I was, or am. I am a lesbian, but, there is still some desire for male in me, small, but some. Strangely, I like that male to be a female wearing a cock, but maybe that is kink (I like a butch girl with a strap on--think it is so sexy). That of course could just be kink and horniness. For lasting sexual relationships, I want a woman, and do not like the thought of a male in my pussy. My cock fucking me needs a pussy (female with a strap on). Real sex with a male is something I do not desire, but I have done it before so people would think I was straight or bi. When I tried to hide my lesbianism.

My partner is a bisexual. She still desires male and maleness, so I male for her when she needs it. Strange I know, but it works for us. I am the most unlikely butch in butchism (at 5'2" and 110 lbs). I look more like her little boy toy when I butch out and pack a cock.

To end, the research is mixed and I reference this article from the allpsych journal online


After reading this thread, I believe it is different for everyone. No one can define how we are what we are. The research is split. I will c/p from the article.

We have examined many causes for homosexuality in the preceding pages, both biological and social. And although an interesting topic of debate, no one theory or experiment leads to a definitive answer. Some believe that the characters found on Xq28 are the Holy Grail of homosexuality research, the elusive 'gay gene'. Others may place stock in the theories of Foucault and Halperin. Perhaps Simon LeVay did reveal to us that anatomy is the key to understanding the difference in sexual orientation. Perhaps there is no one answer, that sexual orientation, whether homosexual or heterosexual; gay, straight, lesbian, or bisexual, all are a cause of a complex interaction between environmental, cognitive, and anatomical factors, shaping the individual at an early age.

Of note is the idea posited by haurni. Is it possible that in the womb hormonal changes can occur to effect orientation? Read The Well of Loneliness by Radcliffe Hall for a perspective on this issue. It is an amazing book that I hope to review soon.

May your day and life be peaceful,

Espie

Poll Results

Nature (We are born this way) 15 30.00%
Nurture (We learn to be queer) 5 10.00%
Nature and Nurture (It's a combination of both) 30 60.00%

 

[Stella_Omega]

The biggest problem is simply nobody knows, there still is no way of telling if a person will be homosexual straight or bi until they themselves figure it out. Even the way a person acts is not a good determiner, I worked with a guy we all thought was gay, I mean seriously, he would help us women put makeup on, we trusted him to go into the bathroom with us if we needed help with a pass out, the male ones the guy customers would help, females we had to do it, very odd.

Everyone thought he was gay, nobody asked him, he had women come and see him at work, left with them often after work, but he was never more than a gal pal to them in front of us. He made a pass at me is how we found out he was straight.

And I have known gay men who were macho, misogynistic, uptight, and completely untrustworthy. So, yeah. Sexual preference is not the same thing at all, as general friendliness and compassion.

I never did answer the question either my bad, it is nature and nurture, nature because the hormone levels of mom determines most everything that happens to the baby. The problem lays in it is not just hormone levels of mom, otherwise all of the kids of a farmer would come out the same besides male or female.

, a woman's hormones fluctuate every single day. During pregnancy, they fluctuate even more. And they don't always follow the same schedual of fluctuation, from pregnancy to pregnancy. Depending on what's happening in her life at that time.

According to most the brain of a baby is simply a big sponge it absorbs everything around, to some if dad is the most caring of a son the son is most likely going to be homosexual. They also say if you never put your baby in the crib they are either going to be a porn star or a serial killer.

According to most?
Darling, this only proves that 'most' are really ignorant. You can't rely on what 'most' people say, you want to go searching for the people who have spent time actually studying the question.

Of note is the idea posited by haurni. Is it possible that in the womb hormonal changes can occur to effect orientation? Read The Well of Loneliness by Radcliffe Hall for a perspective on this issue. It is an amazing book that I hope to review soon.

Espie, the book was written in the early dawn of time, as far as biopsychology is concerned. I agree that Radcliffe Hall wrote a moving and gripping description of lesbian needs and thought processes of a woman who could not claim her rights as a lover-- but whatever she assumed to be the cause of her desires was after the fact. She was a lesbian first.

 

[emap]

Stella actually that is the problem, nobody knows, medicine is still mostly alot of guessing because there is not the huge spending for it. There is huge spending, for cures to breast cancer and diabetes, the human mind is more of a blank slate to the doctors.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Espie, the book was written in the early dawn of time, as far as biopsychology is concerned. I agree that Radcliffe Hall wrote a moving and gripping description of lesbian needs and thought processes of a woman who could not claim her rights as a lover-- but whatever she assumed to be the cause of her desires was after the fact. She was a lesbian first.

Honestly Stella, I don't know much about biopsychology to, well, know. I found the thought so intriguing it took over my mind without, well, thought. The book--in short--amazing. After I read the last page, I put the book down and cried while trembling for thirty minutes. I was so moved. Let's us hope these things never happen to us. It's been intimated the book may be the story of her life. If so, how sad. If anyone knows of the truth in that book; I'd love to know.

Sheet, I'm taking my own thread on a tangent.

...and, love the feathers. I could use a good tickling *grin*

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

. . .athought

I do get them from time to time. Actually this is my partner's thought, who is a smart woman.

Brain chemistry may predispose us to sexual preference, but environmental factors certainly influence how we act on those preferences. Makes sense and is simple. I didn't act openly queer until I was freed of the influence of my hometown and parents, then, the frickin Genie left the bottle--Thank someone the Genie left (certainly not god). My life is much richer and I feel free to experience sex and love at its most thrilling for me. I do not need to suffer like the protagonist in The Well of Loneliness.

I hope I don't piss off the religious folks out there, but WTF, it is the truth. And lovely Lit allows us to spew disagreeable opinion.

 

[infinity706]

Well, it can't be God even if such an entity does exist. Lesbians aren't even mentioned and the few anti homosexual passages that exist were taken way out of context when they were translated. We don't have guys keeping young boys as their personal whores or send a group of guys to forcibly gangbang outsiders to our city. That's what got Sodom in trouble. Of course, even in the event that there were a blanket ban on homosexuality, we don't force raped women to become prostitutes, so it's irrelevant, anyway.

Oh, and you can even masturbate (of course, there's no argument against women anyway). The anti masturbation clause about "spilling seed" has nothing to do with that. When a woman's husband died, it was his brother's duty to impregnate her so she could fulfil her womanly duty of having kids. You know, the whole be fruitful and multiply thing? Pulling out while doing that duty is a sin. Of course, in the event that your wife is infertile, you're entitled to fuck your servant with your wife's consent, to get a baby.

When we get around to enforcing all that shit, though, maybe we can get around to banning being gay.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella actually that is the problem, nobody knows, medicine is still mostly alot of guessing because there is not the huge spending for it. There is huge spending, for cures to breast cancer and diabetes, the human mind is more of a blank slate to the doctors.

There is a lot of research going into neurology and biopsychology, actually. Check out Jaak Panksepp for starters...

His field is affective neurology, the study of how emotions are generated in the brain and mind.

There are huge studies going on! it's really exciting to me...

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Well, it can't be God even if such an entity does exist. Lesbians aren't even mentioned and the few anti homosexual passages that exist were taken way out of context when they were translated. We don't have guys keeping young boys as their personal whores or send a group of guys to forcibly gangbang outsiders to our city. That's what got Sodom in trouble. Of course, even in the event that there were a blanket ban on homosexuality, we don't force raped women to become prostitutes, so it's irrelevant, anyway.

Oh, and you can even masturbate (of course, there's no argument against women anyway). The anti masturbation clause about "spilling seed" has nothing to do with that. When a woman's husband died, it was his brother's duty to impregnate her so she could fulfil her womanly duty of having kids. You know, the whole be fruitful and multiply thing? Pulling out while doing that duty is a sin. Of course, in the event that your wife is infertile, you're entitled to fuck your servant with your wife's consent, to get a baby.

When we get around to enforcing all that shit, though, maybe we can get around to banning being gay.

Banning Queer. What a thought. If it were up to some churches (not all, do not paint all with one brush), we'd be crucified.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

There is a lot of research going into neurology and biopsychology, actually. Check out Jaak Panksepp for starters...

His field is affective neurology, the study of how emotions are generated in the brain and mind.

There are huge studies going on! it's really exciting to me...

I'm going to blog these links Stella.

 

[blade_rocknut]

Here I go....

Let's not forget, sexuality is not black and white. For the record, I lean strongly toward nature in this "argument", if it is an argument. I have pondered much on the topic, although more as it relates to gender, as I have accepted myself as a crossdresser, and by definitions of late, transgendered. My time spent reading on the subject of gender has made me realize that gender and sexuality both must be represented on a spectrum; there is no on or off, black or white for most people. I believe that nature instills the tendencies toward one end of the spectrum or the other, people often fight it for years or forever to please society, family, or to maintain professional status.

 

[infinity706]

Banning Queer. What a thought. If it were up to some churches (not all, do not paint all with one brush), we'd be crucified.

I honestly don't think the churches would really want to kill off the gay community. We're way too good to bring up as a political trump card.

 

[silverwhisper]

i opted for both. i think to some extent, expressions of sexuality are often borne of how a person grows up. at the same time, it's pretty damned clear to me that tons of gay teens torture themselves into acting straight when that is simply unnatural for them.

ed

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

An Update

Nature (We are born this way) 20 32.79%
Nurture (We learn to be queer) 5 8.20%
Nature and Nurture (It's a combination of both) 36 59.02%

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

I honestly don't think the churches would really want to kill off the gay community. We're way too good to bring up as a political trump card.

Yes, we feed the pockets of the worthy . What would they do without us? Many religious organizations (not all--some are great, helpful and open) are a controlling mechanism for the masses. The creation of the bible is an example of religion used to consolidate and control.

i opted for both. i think to some extent, expressions of sexuality are often borne of how a person grows up. at the same time, it's pretty damned clear to me that tons of gay teens torture themselves into acting straight when that is simply unnatural for them.

ed

I do understand this, it was how I acted until I freed myself from the influence of my parents and religion. Glad I figured it out. I worry on all the youth who feel closeted. But happily, twice in the past three/four months I've seen two middle school lesbian couples (I think middle school) walking proudly in the mall. My partner and I winked at them and felt so proud of their bravery in the face of the gawkers. They didn't give a shit, they loved. Even my partner and I are not too affectionate in public due to our upbringing--sadly.

Still, I think you are born queer, and society either suppresses or allows, depending on the way you are raised.

 

[gloriann]

I think it's probably a mixture of both, with a stronger leaning towards nature. I've been asked why I'm gay, and I usually reply, "I was born like this." I have a gay uncle, but to date we're the only two I know of (although I wonder about my cousin's son...)

 

[Craufurd]

I don't think it matters. The question is does a person have a right to decide for his or her self what sexual orientation they belong to.. I say noone has a right to interfere in that very personal decision.

 

[Chrissi]

I don't think it matters. The question is does a person have a right to decide for his or her self what sexual orientation they belong to.. I say noone has a right to interfere in that very personal decision.

Why, of course you are absolutely correct. And in a perfect world that would be wonderful, but alas...Luckily, many are starting for see and feel and understand that, but there are many, including myself who grew up in times when it was very difficult to be gay. It was unusual to meet many who "wanted to be gay," at least those who were first realizing it, or questioning.

Now, me: if I could choose, I would choose to be gay. Of course, why wouldn't I? I love men, love their scents and looks and everything about them, well not everything.

I truly wish the world we lived in was as accepting as that.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

I think it's probably a mixture of both, with a stronger leaning towards nature. I've been asked why I'm gay, and I usually reply, "I was born like this." I have a gay uncle, but to date we're the only two I know of (although I wonder about my cousin's son...)

I think nature too, but society controls the manifestation of our nature many times.

I don't think it matters. The question is does a person have a right to decide for his or her self what sexual orientation they belong to.. I say noone has a right to interfere in that very personal decision.

... in a perfect world friend. Our world is far from it.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Why, of course you are absolutely correct. And in a perfect world that would be wonderful, but alas...Luckily, many are starting for see and feel and understand that, but there are many, including myself who grew up in times when it was very difficult to be gay. It was unusual to meet many who "wanted to be gay," at least those who were first realizing it, or questioning.

Now, me: if I could choose, I would choose to be gay. Of course, why wouldn't I? I love men, love their scents and looks and everything about them, well not everything.

I truly wish the world we lived in was as accepting as that.

Good response gT. We get fashioned--so to speak--by our parents, churches, places of residence, schools, friends and etc. I'm just curious what people think. I'm from a conservative place. I'd think it must be different if you're raised in a place of more acceptance, like San Fran. As a teen, it was my dream to move there, and as a young adult, still a dream.