question about under-aged rejections

[slyc_willie]

Wow. I didn't mean to stir the hornets nest here; I just didn't understand why my story was rejected!

It was never my intention to break any rules or to look for ways around them. I can easily have the under-aged character in question progress the story without being remotely involved in any sex scenes. So I'm working on editing it now, including statements reflecting character age just to be on the safe side.

Sorry to rile you up, and thank you for your feedback!

That's what happens around here, sometimes. Don't worry about it. You posted a valid question, and got a myriad of answers in return. That's one of the wonderful things about Lit and the AH in particular.

Laurel and Manu know very well that many, if not most, people have some sort of sexual experience before the age of consent in the US (i.e., 18). But this is a commercial site, and we have all chosen to abide by certain rules. We need to respect that.

All right, so perhaps it is not always 'realistic' to expect someone to remain virgin until the day of their 18th birthday. But this is a fiction writer's website. We have categories for Non-Human and Sci-Fi/Fantasy. We can suspend disbelief there, why not everywhere else?

Also, Lit does not exist to challenge authors to 'sneak in under the radar' and try to get around the age restrictions. If an author really wants to write about kiddies having sex, there are other sites, of lower quality, out there. Feel free to post to them.

The above was not directed to you, Pen_Dragon.

Literotica is, without a doubt, the BEST website for showcasing erotica. If you can get recognized here, you really can go far. Just ask Selena, Danielle, Boota, Rachlou, and many more who have received publishing contracts as a result of their exposure here.

Hell, maybe someday, I might be among them . . . .

Be yourself, tell your stories, and stick to the rules, Pen. You never know what might happen

 

[mikey2much]

No worries about the spelling, mikey.

But I think it is the "getting around the rules" that worries many of us.

Lit is a free site. There are many other sites that allow underage sex. Why don't you take this story there, if it is indeed so important?

It really is not my story that is at issue here. I was answering a question posed my Pen Dragon. I don't think that my stories have ever dealt with any underage incidents. I am not that big a pervert. ;-)

 

[mikey2much]

In my defense

1.You are wrong about that , I do use that expression with men as well as women. Only women get uptight about it.

I have never, let me repeat that, Never used any underage sex in any of my stories. I have tried to express that events that happen to young people shape the adults that they grow up to become. I think that the fiction that we write should be based on the realities of the real world that we live in.

3. I guess that all our stories should began with the people in them getting undressed? Straight to the sex, and all other aspects of their life is not to be mentioned. I think that as writers we should try to explain how they came to find themselves in lives that they are living.

4. I will agree that the site is not mine and that I don't make the rules. I try to make my stories fit within the framework that they give me. I am not trying to make waves here. My advice to the question of underage involvement was to make it so vague that the readers would be forced to imagine what might have taken place. I don't think that is bad advice and I don't think a story that did that would ever draw any heat to the site.

Let me say again that I have no quarrel with you, in fact I read your post and enjoy what you have to say. I admire the way you fight for what you believe in. If asked where I stand in relation to you, I would have to say that you are one of the brightest minds on the board. You and shereads are my pick of the litter amonst the ladies here on this site.

Once again If I have pissed you off I am sorry. I was only offering help to somebody who was asking for advice. Do you really think that my advice was wrong or was it my wording? If I had said that he could get some underage sexual backgrounds into his story would it have offended your senses as much as saying underage stuff? Did the word stuff have too many meanings in your mind?

I am trying to understand how I stepped on your toes.
mikey

 

[cloudy]

1. You are wrong about that , I do use that expression with men as well as women. Only women get uptight about it.

Fine. I'll be more explicit. Please don't use it with me. It's insulting. The fact that women "get uptight about it" should tell you something.

2. I have never, let me repeat that, Never used any underage sex in any of my stories. I have tried to express that events that happen to young people shape the adults that they grow up to become. I think that the fiction that we write should be based on the realities of the real world that we live in.

I completely understand. The fact remains that whatever real life is, some things just can't be expressed here.

3. I guess that all our stories should began with the people in them getting undressed? Straight to the sex, and all other aspects of their life is not to be mentioned. I think that as writers we should try to explain how they came to find themselves in lives that they are living.

Ahh, you've obviously never read anything I've written, or you wouldn't have said that. Yes, we can, and do explain how things affect people. See my answer to your #2.

4. I will agree that the site is not mine and that I don't make the rules. I try to make my stories fit within the framework that they give me. I am not trying to make waves here. My advice to the question of underage involvement was to make it so vague that the readers would be forced to imagine what might have taken place. I don't think that is bad advice and I don't think a story that did that would ever draw any heat to the site.

You said (direct quote): "I think that if you keep everything played down a bit you can squeese some underage stuff into your stories."

My point is that "squeezing underage stuff into your stories" violates the rules.

Let me say again that I have no quarrel with you, in fact I read your post and enjoy what you have to say. I admire the way you fight for what you believe in. If asked where I stand in relation to you, I would have to say that you are one of the brightest minds on the board. You and shereads are my pick of the litter amonst the ladies here on this site.

Thank you.

I have no quarrel with you either. Maybe if you'd been around longer (no disrespect, I promise), and had seen how many people show up asking for advice on how to get around that particular rule, you'd understand just how grating it is to see it again, and see someone offering advice on how to do just that.

Once again If I have pissed you off I am sorry. I was only offering help to somebody who was asking for advice. Do you really think that my advice was wrong or was it my wording? If I had said that he could get some underage sexual backgrounds into his story would it have offended your senses as much as saying underage stuff? Did the word stuff have too many meanings in your mind?

I am trying to understand how I stepped on your toes.
mikey

You haven't pissed me off. Most of us that have been around any length of time tend to be extremely protective of this site and Laurel & Manu. Although I'm sure they make money from it, they are also VERY good to the authors here, and protective of them, as well (even going as far as to donate to pet causes of some - PM me for details if you like). I don't want to see something this good disappear because of the thoughtless actions of a few.

Surely you know the repressive atmosphere that exists in the states - I know you do; I've read your posts, too. Don't you think there's more than a few people that would love nothing better than to see sites like this shut down?

If more and more authors "squeeze some underage stuff into their stories," the chances get better and better that it will get shut down.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[mikey2much]

Lets smoke the peace pipe.

Fine. I'll be more explicit. Please don't use it with me. It's insulting. The fact that women "get uptight about it" should tell you something.


I completely understand. The fact remains that whatever real life is, some things just can't be expressed here.


Ahh, you've obviously never read anything I've written, or you wouldn't have said that. Yes, we can, and do explain how things affect people. See my answer to your #2.


You said (direct quote): "I think that if you keep everything played down a bit you can squeese some underage stuff into your stories."

My point is that "squeezing underage stuff into your stories" violates the rules.



Thank you.

I have no quarrel with you either. Maybe if you'd been around longer (no disrespect, I promise), and had seen how many people show up asking for advice on how to get around that particular rule, you'd understand just how grating it is to see it again, and see someone offering advice on how to do just that.



You haven't pissed me off. Most of us that have been around any length of time tend to be extremely protective of this site and Laurel & Manu. Although I'm sure they make money from it, they are also VERY good to the authors here, and protective of them, as well (even going as far as to donate to pet causes of some - PM me for details if you like). I don't want to see something this good disappear because of the thoughtless actions of a few.

Surely you know the repressive atmosphere that exists in the states - I know you do; I've read your posts, too. Don't you think there's more than a few people that would love nothing better than to see sites like this shut down?

If more and more authors "squeeze some underage stuff into their stories," the chances get better and better that it will get shut down.

That's the point I'm trying to make.[/QUOTE

You have made your point, I hope that I have explained my reason for saying what I said. In reality we are both on the same side here.
mikey

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Yep, yep. It's the part about trying to slide the underage sex in under the door that's bothering the AH'rs.

That is a hard and fast rule. Laural and Manu have to maintian that rule for legal reasons, because they don't want the God-Squad shutting down this site.

That rule stands. Learn to live with it and don't try and find a way around it. You'll just get rejected again.

 

[mikey2much]

I guess the standard is getting harder to meet

Hi Guys,

I offered some advice to another author regarding underage sex in a story he had written.
I offered as an example the way I handled it in a story that I wrote. In my story I merely mentioned that he had taken a ride with a strange man and that when the man took the boy home that he gave him ten dollars and let him out.

There was no mention of sex. Only a mention of a "funny feeling" between the boy and the guy. Yeah I know that there was sex but I did not describe it or linger on it.

Now after the conversation that I had with the guy and after getting scalped by Cloudy, the censors at Lit have removed the story.

After being read by 3652 readers and not one of them finding anything wrong with the story, no public comments. four votes were cast, each of them gave the story a four.

I know that you guys are scared shitless by the threat of the 'god squad', but you guys should have a little more faith in what you think on the first judgement. This is a six part story and to go back now and censor what has already been approved is something close to selling out.

If the threat of the good christians anger and wrath is so great. that you lose your confidence in your own judgement to tell what is underage sex then I think you have a problem.

I try to meet the standards that the site sets but I think that this is bending over backwards for a group that we all think is a threat to our rights.

I know that Cloudy is chomping at the bit to fire off some flaming piece of hate mail to me for saying this but I don't care. It is wrong to be this chickenshit.

When you cave in so quickly to the Christian right, you offer them all the encouragement they need to come back demanding more. In time I am sure that you will have no nudity described in your stories and soon after no sex unless the people are married. No gay sex at all since it might lead others to sample it themselves.

I like this site and I love the chance to write and be read but I have to say this.

It is a disservice to America and sends a message to the people who dream of shutting down free speech, that they are right, and that they can win their battle to silence everyone who dosen't agree with them.

To say that I am upset would be a major understatement. When I can read about a black man shitting down a white couple's throat while he is making racist comments, it would seem that I could say what I said in my story.

Maybe this isn't the best place to learn how to write after all.

I stand 100 percent against this way of doing business. If you want to take my other stories down , go ahead. This is political correctness running wild.

The story would have never, I repeat NEVER caused any trouble for this site. It had been approved already. It had been up for months with no complaints from anybody.

So everybody be careful what you say to others on the board, it may be used against you.

Couldy, since you were the loudest bitching against me I can't help but feel that you were involved. So be it. but you should take down your banner for political prisoners, it is people like you who turn them in.

pissed off and wondering where the hell the America I love has gone.

mike

 

[Guest]

Darling, you really don't get it, do you?

Literotica does not allow stories with the characters younger than eighteen having sex.

Period.

OTHER sites do.

It is a free site, the owners do not have to bend the rules for you. If you wish to have younger characters having sex take your stuff elsewhere.

What is the problem?

 

[cloudy]

Think of me what you like, Mikey.

You know my feelings, and it has nothing to do with being "chickenshit" and everything to do with abiding by the rules that the owners of this site have set. I respect them enough to do that, and I expect others to do the same.

There is no grand conspiracy here, as much as you'd like to think there is.

eta: I'm not feeling well this morning, so I won't address your childish insults. You don't know me, so you're much better off not making assumptions.

 

[mikey2much]

you miss the point

Darling, you really don't get it, do you?

Literotica does not allow stories with the characters younger than eighteen having sex.

Period.

OTHER sites do.

It is a free site, the owners do not have to bend the rules for you. If you wish to have younger characters having sex take your stuff elsewhere.

What is the problem?

You miss the point. I had no problem, my story was approved and posted for months. Did the underage sex get worst as the story aged?

This whole thing was never about me. When I get rejected I rewrite until I pass whatever standards the site sets. You have never heard me complain about rejection. But to go back and reject a story that had already been approved is another thing all together.

If you can't see that then you will most likey vote republican again this coming election.

mike

 

[gauchecritic]

I know that they're busy busy people but Laurel and Manu do actually read some of the posts in various threads. They might have pulled it themselves.

 

[Guest]

You miss the point. I had no problem, my story was approved and posted for months. Did the underage sex get worst as the story aged?

This whole thing was never about me. When I get rejected I rewrite until I pass whatever standards the site sets. You have never heard me complain about rejection. But to go back and reject a story that had already been approved is another thing all together.

If you can't see that then you will most likey vote republican again this coming election.

mike

Fuck off, you little pissant.

If you knew anything about me at all, you'd know how ridiculous your last comment was.

And as a matter of fact, underage stories do occasionally slip past the reviewers and wind up on the site.

They are removed after readers notice and complain, which apparently is what happened to yours.

And I repeat - this is a free site. Laurel and Manu's rules for Lit state that sex in stories under the age of eighteen is not allowed here.

So you can't do it.

Other sites do allow it - take those stories elsewhere.

I added a link to this thread to the other thread you started. You aren't going to find many takers for your point of view, I'm afraid.

You have no grounds for your complaint.

 

[mikey2much]

Hope you get to feeling better. I feel bad too.

Think of me what you like, Mikey.

You know my feelings, and it has nothing to do with being "chickenshit" and everything to do with abiding by the rules that the owners of this site have set. I respect them enough to do that, and I expect others to do the same.

There is no grand conspiracy here, as much as you'd like to think there is.

eta: I'm not feeling well this morning, so I won't address your childish insults. You don't know me, so you're much better off not making assumptions.

Once again, I have no problem. My story was approved. There is no underage sex in my story. Have you read it? If not then I don't think you can pass judgement on it.

But then again you can't read it can you? It ain't there no more.

mike

 

[cloudy]

Once again, I have no problem. My story was approved. There is no underage sex in my story. Have you read it? If not then I don't think you can pass judgement on it.

But then again you can't read it can you? It ain't there no more.

mike

I never passed judgment on any of your stories. All I have ever read from you is the snippet you posted. It looks like a clear violation of the rules to me, but that isn't my decision to make.

Free bit of advice: Sarahh is not only well-respected here, but also well-loved. Insulting her may make you feel better, but it certainly won't win you any friends or supporters. You owe her an apology.

 

[Guest]

I never passed judgment on any of your stories. All I have ever read from you is the snippet you posted. It looks like a clear violation of the rules to me, but that isn't my decision to make.

Free bit of advice: Sarahh is not only well-respected here, but also well-loved. Insulting her may make you feel better, but it certainly won't win you any friends or supporters. You owe her an apology.

I lurve you. And I'm done here.

Let's go find a quiet corner for some girlsex.

 

[cloudy]

I lurve you. And I'm done here.

Let's go find a quiet corner for some girlsex.

I lurve you too. Sounds good to me.

 

[Guest]

I lurve you too. Sounds good to me.

 

[mikey2much]

Also, Lit does not exist to challenge authors to 'sneak in under the radar' and try to get around the age restrictions. If an author really wants to write about kiddies having sex, there are other sites, of lower quality, out there. Feel free to post to them.

The above was not directed to you, Pen_Dragon.

I guess that the remark is aimed at me. Let me say again there was no underage sex in my story. No child molesting pervert would have found it interesting. It had been read and approved. It had been posted for some time now with no complaints or comments. The readers who read it(3600) voted it a four. I don't think that anybody would have been offended by the story unless they were offended by sex in general.
mikey

 

[FallingToFly]

I know this probably isn't what anyone wants to hear, but Lit's rules have been explained to me, multiple times (once by Laurel herself!) regarding underage sex.

Basically, this is what I have been told repeatedly- You CAN mention that the character had sex before becoming an adult. Not everyone makes it to 18 lily pure, and the Mods understand that yes, teenagers do have sex. HOWEVER- you can't describe the sex acts they performed. You cannot give physical details of the act.

According to that standard- which many, many, many of us have used and is the accepted norm for such areas- I know my characters didn't stay off the primrose path until they were 18- Mikey's story did not violate the guidelines. It does not describe a child (IE: anyone under 18) having sex. It simply states that his character was not a god little church boy (yes, I am paraphrasing) without ever taking us through that scene. With the timing of the removal... it's likely someone was petty enough to take out their dislike of his personal opinion on his stories. A shame, but trolls live everywhere, even here on the AH.

Personally- I do my best to not even mention the fact that my characters weren't all pure and innocent before they reached the magic age. If it's relevant to the story- abuse as a child, a rape that a character is recovering from and regaining sexual trust from- I will mention it in passing, because the reader needs that background to understand why the character does the things she/he does. Not everyone sees it that way- but that doesn't mean they violate the guidelines of the site. I don't PERSONALLY (my own view, MVHO, my 2 cents) think Mikey was in the wrong- he admitted to TAKING OUT AN EXPLICIT SCENE in order to conform to the rules. His unfortunate choice of words in the first post have damned him, and that's a shame.

Simply my OPINION:

FtF

 

[cloudy]

I know this probably isn't what anyone wants to hear, but Lit's rules have been explained to me, multiple times (once by Laurel herself!) regarding underage sex.

Basically, this is what I have been told repeatedly- You CAN mention that the character had sex before becoming an adult. Not everyone makes it to 18 lily pure, and the Mods understand that yes, teenagers do have sex. HOWEVER- you can't describe the sex acts they performed. You cannot give physical details of the act.

According to that standard- which many, many, many of us have used and is the accepted norm for such areas- I know my characters didn't stay off the primrose path until they were 18- Mikey's story did not violate the guidelines. It does not describe a child (IE: anyone under 18) having sex. It simply states that his character was not a god little church boy (yes, I am paraphrasing) without ever taking us through that scene. With the timing of the removal... it's likely someone was petty enough to take out their dislike of his personal opinion on his stories. A shame, but trolls live everywhere, even here on the AH.

Personally- I do my best to not even mention the fact that my characters weren't all pure and innocent before they reached the magic age. If it's relevant to the story- abuse as a child, a rape that a character is recovering from and regaining sexual trust from- I will mention it in passing, because the reader needs that background to understand why the character does the things she/he does. Not everyone sees it that way- but that doesn't mean they violate the guidelines of the site. I don't PERSONALLY (my own view, MVHO, my 2 cents) think Mikey was in the wrong- he admitted to TAKING OUT AN EXPLICIT SCENE in order to conform to the rules. His unfortunate choice of words in the first post have damned him, and that's a shame.

Simply my OPINION:

FtF

Ultimately, though Falling, the choice is made by those that review the stories. My guess is that it's getting reviewed now, that's all. That's what it says when you go to the link in his sig.

I haven't read the entire story, so I don't know what was or wasn't in there. I have no idea. And you know as well as I do that things slip through on first pass.

As far as trolls on the AH goes, well...you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'd rather not be quite so paranoid (which is why I haven't checked my story scores in months). A score is just a number - I know what has and hasn't worked in my writing, if I'm honest with myself.

 

[Liar]

This whole thing was never about me. When I get rejected I rewrite until I pass whatever standards the site sets. You have never heard me complain about rejection. But to go back and reject a story that had already been approved is another thing all together.

Not going to get in to the personal squibble going on here, but I have to adress this.

Not so sure about that. It means that when your story was first approved, it was an mistake by the "screener" (I still haven't figured out just who does the read-through of all incoming stories, Laurel?). To err is human and all that. And there are a lot of stories to read. And if authors deliberately try to test the limits and find loopholes, some stories that step over that line will slip under the radar.

Why not just give the admins a break and heed to the quite obvious spirit of the rules, (sex stories about adults, no exceptions, and nothing that can be intepreted as exceptions - which your story now quite evidently have been, since it's pulled) instead of trying to challenge the limits? It hurts the site, because people can look at those stories and say that Literotica is not living up to it's own policy. I don't think it's any risk that the Putitan Police shuts it down because of that, there are far "worse" sites out there for them to be hysterical about first. What it could mean, for instance, is that sponsors dissaproves, and backs out. Sponsors is what keeps the site running. Laurel and Manu try to keeps ads to a minimum, and are therefore quite dependant on the few stable sponsors they have.

I fail to see what is so wrong about keeping a little safe margin to those limits.

 

[mikey2much]

Thank you so much

I know this probably isn't what anyone wants to hear, but Lit's rules have been explained to me, multiple times (once by Laurel herself!) regarding underage sex.

Basically, this is what I have been told repeatedly- You CAN mention that the character had sex before becoming an adult. Not everyone makes it to 18 lily pure, and the Mods understand that yes, teenagers do have sex. HOWEVER- you can't describe the sex acts they performed. You cannot give physical details of the act.

According to that standard- which many, many, many of us have used and is the accepted norm for such areas- I know my characters didn't stay off the primrose path until they were 18- Mikey's story did not violate the guidelines. It does not describe a child (IE: anyone under 18) having sex. It simply states that his character was not a god little church boy (yes, I am paraphrasing) without ever taking us through that scene. With the timing of the removal... it's likely someone was petty enough to take out their dislike of his personal opinion on his stories. A shame, but trolls live everywhere, even here on the AH.

Personally- I do my best to not even mention the fact that my characters weren't all pure and innocent before they reached the magic age. If it's relevant to the story- abuse as a child, a rape that a character is recovering from and regaining sexual trust from- I will mention it in passing, because the reader needs that background to understand why the character does the things she/he does. Not everyone sees it that way- but that doesn't mean they violate the guidelines of the site. I don't PERSONALLY (my own view, MVHO, my 2 cents) think Mikey was in the wrong- he admitted to TAKING OUT AN EXPLICIT SCENE in order to conform to the rules. His unfortunate choice of words in the first post have damned him, and that's a shame.

Simply my OPINION:

FtF

Thank you for saying that, it means a great deal to me.
mikey

 

[mikey2much]

Not going to get in to the personal squibble going on here, but I have to adress this.

Not so sure about that. It means that when your story was first approved, it was an mistake by the "screener" (I still haven't figured out just who does the read-through of all incoming stories, Laurel?). To err is human and all that. And there are a lot of stories to read. And if authors deliberately try to test the limits and find loopholes, some stories that step over that line will slip under the radar.

Why not just give the admins a break and heed to the quite obvious spirit of the rules, (sex stories about adults, no exceptions, and nothing that can be intepreted as exceptions - which your story now quite evidently have been, since it's pulled) instead of trying to challenge the limits? It hurts the site, because people can look at those stories and say that Literotica is not living up to it's own policy. I don't think it's any risk that the Putitan Police shuts it down because of that, there are far "worse" sites out there for them to be hysterical about first. What it could mean, for instance, is that sponsors dissaproves, and backs out. Sponsors is what keeps the site running. Laurel and Manu try to keeps ads to a minimum, and are therefore quite dependant on the few stable sponsors they have.

I fail to see what is so wrong about keeping a little safe margin to those limits.

That is a reasonable point of view and one that I will consider. I must admit that I had never thought of the sponsor side of the thing.
Thank you for bringing it up.
mikey

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm going to weigh in here- I agree with Falling that Mikey's story met the criteria, and that his choice of words in this thread were unfortunate.

And that whoever reported him as violating the guidelines took on quite a bit of personal responsibility- something that (And this is a compliment) we AH-ers are good at. But these stories have all been accepted within this year, and therefore under the very stringent guidelines that Lit has made public. It must have been read, back in January when it was new- there has to be a reason why our submissions are taking as long as two weeks to be reviewed, eh?

But I would bet you a dollar that Lit's policy, when they receive this kind of complaint is to delete without bothering to read it. Hell, they don't have time to read every new submission in a timely fashion, they don't have time to review complaints- it's safer and quicker to simply delete them, and let the author try to re-submit.

I hope that whoever did make the complaint bothered to read the chapter first. It's not a cute, happy story, and it's quite obvious that this character could not possibly have had a happy childhood. To try to force any author to ignore an important part of his character's history is ridiculous, and violates, in my opinion, the principles of good writing.

That's my $.02...

 

[gauchecritic]

To try to force any author to ignore an important part of his character's history is ridiculous, and violates, in my opinion, the principles of good writing.

That's my $.02...

You say that as though we're writing about real people.

If a publisher (even Lit.) rejects the story for any whimsical or perfectly substantiated reason and if the writer wants it publishing at that place, then he has to change it to what the publisher finds acceptable.

As you well know Stell, artistic integrity is nothing when rivalling the bottom line.

(and I think it highly unlikely that any of the submissions to Lit. are read with any great concentration, other than skimming for rule breaking)