So what word *do* we use?

[gauchecritic]

Hmmm...I'd've said "deliciously butch", but that's me.

Now that's interesting. When I see the word butch it describes those homosexuals of either sex that are most 'manly'.

Whichever title the community comes up with the 'normal' people will steal it and use it as insult. 60's=puff. 70's=fairy, 80's=queer, 90's>=gay. In much the same way that they steal 'gay' fashions. woolen ties, suede shoes, thick belts, keychains, ear-rings etc et-gay-cetra.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Now that's interesting. When I see the word butch it describes those homosexuals of either sex that are most 'manly'.

Whichever title the community comes up with the 'normal' people will steal it and use it as insult. 60's=puff. 70's=fairy, 80's=queer, 90's>=gay. In much the same way that they steal 'gay' fashions. woolen ties, suede shoes, thick belts, keychains, ear-rings etc et-gay-cetra.

That's how I use the word, too.

Bike boots and chaps are kinda manly for a dyke, don't you think? At least, that's the impression I'd be trying to convey wearing 'em...

 

[Dr_Strabismus]

I just ran across an article on Yahoo! regarding a slur made by Ann Coulter and it started me wondering again.

I first had this thought come to me when reading about the flap over on "Grey's Anatomy" but wasn't sure whether to come in here and ask and, just maybe, look either stupid and/or bigoted.

But, anyways, I was always taught that female homosexuals were lesbians and males were faggots. Obviously, language has progressed since I first learned this and so I ask...is there an accepted term for a male homosexual or do you just say 'gay man'?

I think "fudge-packer" is still the acceptable term in polite company.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think "fudge-packer" is still the acceptable term in polite company.

C'mere and let me clean your glasses for you

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Sometimes this is true, yes.

I don't mind when friends use the word "squaw," but get very insulted when someone else does. You won't hear that word on the rez at all. (For those who don't know, it's an Algonquin word meaning "cunt")

Here is more on the origins of 'squaw' Link To Article

The idea that squaw means vagina (to use the polite term) first found its way into print in a polemical 1973 book, Literature of the American Indian, by Thomas E. Sanders and Walter W. Peek. Sanders and Peek, without offering evidence, advanced the theory that squaw derived from the Mohawk word ojiskwa' (sources vary on spelling), meaning vagina. This notion appealed to a certain mind-set and was circulated widely in the activist community. In 1992 it was revealed to the world at large on Oprah by Native American spokesperson Suzan Harjo: "The word squaw is an Algonquin [sic] Indian word meaning vagina, and that'll give you an idea of what the French and British fur trappers were calling all Indian women, and I hope no one ever uses that term again." This marked the beginning of organized efforts to remove the word squaw from place names, a campaign that continues today, so far with mixed success.

Hey, free country. Except that squaw doesn't mean vagina. "It is as certain as any historical fact can be that the word squaw that the English settlers in Massachusetts used for 'Indian woman' in the early 1600s was adopted by them from the word squa that their Massachusett-speaking neighbors used in their own language to mean 'female, younger woman,' and not from Mohawk ojiskwa', 'vagina,' which has the wrong shape [sound], the wrong meaning, and was used by people with whom they then had no contact. The resemblance that might be perceived between squaw and the last syllable of the Mohawk word is coincidental." This comes to us from Ives Goddard, a specialist in linguistics and curator at the Smithsonian Institution, writing in News From Indian Country, mid-April 1997.

Massachusett (no s), one of the Algonquian family of languages, was spoken by Native Americans in eastern Massachusetts. As is common with "first contact" languages, Massachusett and its Algonquian cousins contributed many terms, including papoose, sachem, skunk, opossum, and raccoon, that thereafter became standard English words, even in parts of North America where Algonquian languages weren't spoken. The first recorded use of squaw in English dates from 1622, and it had been adopted into the language by 1634. The Mohawks were 200 miles away, spoke a completely different language (Mohawk is part of the Iroquoian family of languages, not Algonquian, Harjo's statement notwithstanding), and were hostile to the Massachusett Indians.

Having deep-sixed . . . hmm, not the best choice of terms. Having dispatched the squaw = c*** angle, let's turn to the more general issue: is squaw considered an insult by Native American women? Lots of them sure think it is, although to what extent that's due to misinformation about the term's origin is debatable. "Documented uses of the word squaw in clearly derogatory senses are in fact hard to find," writes University of Colorado linguistics expert William Bright in a forthcoming article. One early example: "the crafty 'squaw' . . . the squalid and withered person of this hag," from James Fenimore Cooper's Last of the Mohicans. (Squaw, squalid--you can see a problem right there.) On the other hand, tribes such as the Navajo use terms like squaw dance to this day.

One doesn't want to get overly PC about it, but the protesters have a point when they say special terms for minority women are inherently demeaning. Think about it. Negress. Jewess. Sixty years ago these terms were in common use. Now they make your flesh creep. Next picture some pot-bellied slob in a cowboy hat: "Why, if it ain't a injun and his squaw." In 1967, 143 place names containing the word nigger were changed to Negro by order of the U.S. Board on Geographic Names. Squaw Valley may not be in the same league as Nigger Lake on the offensiveness scale. But it's up there with Pickaninny Creek

 

[CeriseNoire]

I say gay or lesbian, although it's not that often that I need to describe people as such.
As for 'dyke' it only conjures up the image of a lesbian who's pretty far on the side of butchiness (<- pretty sure that's not a real word). Maybe it's because of the self-described bulldyke who'd gotten it in her head that she would get in my pants back in high school. So I can't use the word to describe lesbians in general.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I say gay or lesbian, although it's not that often that I need to describe people as such.
As for 'dyke' it only conjures up the image of a lesbian who's pretty far on the side of butchiness (<- pretty sure that's not a real word). Maybe it's because of the self-described bulldyke who'd gotten it in her head that she would get in my pants back in high school. So I can't use the word to describe lesbians in general.

Personally, I just keep my mouth shut...

 

[starrkers]

I find it interesting that there are so many (mostly derogatory) terms for homosexual male, but hardly any for homosexual female.

Apropos of Cloudy's post re ''squaw": if you're ever in Australia, be careful what you call members of the Aboriginal population. They don't like "Aborigine" much, and aren't keen on "black". "Koori" has become the accepted term. However, that only works well with the eastern tribes. If you call a member of the Central Australian tribes "koori" you're likely to get hit. It's a filthy insult.
There are, of course, other highly insulting terms, which I won't repeat.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I say gay or lesbian, although it's not that often that I need to describe people as such.
As for 'dyke' it only conjures up the image of a lesbian who's pretty far on the side of butchiness (<- pretty sure that's not a real word). Maybe it's because of the self-described bulldyke who'd gotten it in her head that she would get in my pants back in high school. So I can't use the word to describe lesbians in general.

Well, a "bulldyke" is a subset of "butch dyke", see, which is a subset of "dyke" which is more or less tangentially aligned with "lipstick lesbian"- itself a subset of- here, I'll draw up the flowchart

Also, if you judge every group by the behavior of the one you knew in high school, how will the babies ever get made, eh?

 

[cloudy]

is squaw considered an insult by Native American women?

They asked me if it was. I'm Native American, and despite all your wonderful references, I say it is.

Do you know anyone who actually speaks an Algonquin-based language???

I do. She'd wash your mouth out with soap if she heard you use that word.

It might help if you went to an actual source, instead of reading white folks interpretations. We've been putting up with that crap for years. Thank you for keeping it up.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Faggot has often been used as a slur, so you shouldn't use it. Also I think the english peoples who talk funny sometimes say "smokin a fag" which is not really a homophobic death threat, but confuses things even more.

A woman who is happy and gay is prolly only bi-curious, while a happy gay woman usually prefers other women, while a straight woman hasn't tried it yet. A gay woman can call another woman a cunt with great affection, while a bi-curious woman can call another woman a cunt with desire, while a straight woman who calls another woman a cunt is usually a cunt.

Notice where the insult is intentional.

Men can't use the C-word at all.

Same with gay men I would assume. The terms lesbian and homosexual are ok if intended without insult, also gay man or gay woman are acceptable if intended without insult.

Anything else may un-intentionally be construed as an insult.

I hope this clears everthing up Remec, see ya, Lisa.

(Lisa gayly skips away)

 

[drksideofthemoon]

They asked me if it was. I'm Native American, and despite all your wonderful references, I say it is.

Do you know anyone who actually speaks an Algonquin-based language???

I do.

It might help if you went to an actual source, instead of reading white folks interpretations. We've been putting up with that crap for years. Thank you for keeping it up.

Were you around in 1622?

 

[CeriseNoire]

Well, a "bulldyke" is a subset of "butch dyke", see, which is a subset of "dyke" which is more or less tangentially aligned with "lipstick lesbian"- itself a subset of- here, I'll draw up the flowchart

Also, if you judge every group by the behavior of the one you knew in high school, how will the babies ever get made, eh?

Ooo... flowcharts. Sorry, I'm easily dazzled.

By the way, I'm not judging the whole group.I just meant that every time I hear the word "dyke", her picture comes to mind. Now that I think of it, I'm sure she'd get a kick out of knowing she had that much of an impact. As for judging everyone on the ones I knew in high school, lord knows if I did I'd be asexual.

 

[cloudy]

Were you around in 1622?

Were you?

Of course I wasn't. However, I'd rather rely on a native speaker than what someone who doesn't even speak the language has decided for us.

But, I'm not surprised. It's only been happening that way for the last...oh, three hundred years. You're not the first white person to decide what we should and shouldn't be insulted about.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Were you around in 1622?

pretty much any NA's that were around then got killed by the separatists. Since Cloudy is with us, she must have missed that little party-

I sure wish she had been, though, because there's this bit of dialogue i need...

 

[cloudy]

pretty much any NA's that were around then got killed by the separatists. Since Cloudy is with us, she must have missed that little party-

I sure wish she had been, though, because there's this bit of dialogue i need...

I can still ask his mom (who's the native speaker I was talking about...but then, white folks know so much more about our history than we do ourselves...maybe I should ask the native expert above, since he apparently knows more about what it's like to be me than I do).

 

[Lisa Denton]

Were you around in 1622?

Please don't go where you are going.

I know you don't mean to.

The PC correct term for Cloudy around here is "friend."

 

[cloudy]

Please don't go where you are going.

I know you don't mean to.

The PC correct term for Cloudy around here is "friend."

I love you, Lisa.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

They asked me if it was. I'm Native American, and despite all your wonderful references, I say it is.

Do you know anyone who actually speaks an Algonquin-based language???

I do.

It might help if you went to an actual source, instead of reading white folks interpretations. We've been putting up with that crap for years. Thank you for keeping it up.

That's your opinion. And everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Words change over time.

Fifty years ago if I would have said, "Tom is sure a gay fellow." The connotation would have been that he was happy go lucky.

When Robert Service wrote "The Northern Lights have seen some queer sights." I somehow don't think he was referring to homosexuals.

 

[cloudy]

That's your opinion. And everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Words change over time.

Fifty years ago if I would have said, "Tom is sure a gay fellow." The connotation would have been that he was happy go lucky.

When Robert Service wrote "The Northern Lights have seen some queer sights." I somehow don't think he was referring to homosexuals.

Well, please...enlighten me on what exactly it's like to be Native, and what I should be insulted by.

Tell me what it's like to be me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can still ask his mom (who's the native speaker I was talking about...but then, white folks know so much more about our history than we do ourselves).

please? I know it's a lot of obscenities though...


I'm talking about the Boston area. there was an English settlement there called Merrimount, founded by Thomas Morton, a cavalier (The opposite of the puritans in almost every way- political, philosophical, grammatical) and in the course of driving these rivals away from the area, the Boston gang decimated the local tribe as well.

 

[cloudy]

please? I know it's a lot of obscenities though...


I'm talking about the Boston area. there was an English settlement there called Merrimount, founded by Thomas Morton, a cavalier (The opposite of the puritans in almost every way- political, philosophical, grammatical) and in the course of driving these rivals away from the area, the Boston gang decimated the local tribe as well.

Give me a day or so to come up with a way to ask her without getting my mouth washed out with soap.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Well, please...enlighten me on what exactly it's like to be Native, and what I should be insulted by.

Tell me what it's like to be me.

I didn't tell you what you should or should not be insulted by. My only point was to show the origin of the word. My second point was that words change over time, and the connotations with the words change.

 

[cloudy]

I didn't tell you what you should or should not be insulted by. My only point was to show the origin of the word. My second point was that words change over time, and the connotations with the words change.

You also said, apparently, that I shouldn't be insulted by the word.

Please don't assume that you know more of our history than I do. In some areas, possibly, but I doubt it. And don't tell me how I should feel. You have no earthly idea, I promise. You couldn't begin to understand.

And, please...stop relying on what white scholars say who don't know the first thing about us other than what they read in other books. That, in itself, is insulting. You want to know? Ask a native. No one I know is hurt or insulted by someone who genuinely wants a sincere answer.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Give me a day or so to come up with a way to ask her without getting my mouth washed out with soap.

Yikes! I don't know if you can!