So what word *do* we use?

[Lisa Denton]

Having deep-sixed . . . hmm, not the best choice of terms. Having dispatched the squaw = c*** angle, let's turn to the more general issue: is squaw considered an insult by Native American women? Lots of them sure think it is, although to what extent that's due to misinformation about the term's origin is debatable.

I don't get this, but I read it again and "I don't fuckin get it"

Was this not a quote from a source? Was this what you said?

Would a white man go into a predominately african-american neighborhood and argue that the n-word should not be considered an insult by them, in his opinion, because those N's are suffering from some mis-information?

I mean ................................. I just don't get it.

No rose.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

You also said, apparently, that I shouldn't be insulted by the word.

Please don't assume that you know more of our history than I do. In some areas, possibly, but I doubt it. And don't tell me how I should feel. You have no earthly idea, I promise. You couldn't begin to understand.

And, please...stop relying on what white scholars say who don't know the first thing about us other than what they read in other books. That, in itself, is insulting. You want to know? Ask a native. No one I know is hurt or insulted by someone who genuinely wants a sincere answer.

I don't see where I apparently said that you shouldn't be insulted by the word.

And I have not once told you how you should feel. If you are insulted by it, then it's an insult. I personally think it's an ugly word.

And yes, there is not a single white scholar that is objective in anything native...

None of the natives I've ever known used the word, but they were mainly Cree, Blackfoot, Lakota, Gwt'chn, Tlingit, Inuit...

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I don't get this, but I read it again and "I don't fuckin get it"

Was this not a quote from a source? Was this what you said?

Would a white man go into a predominately african-american neighborhood and argue that the n-word should not be considered an insult by them, in his opinion, because those N's are suffering from some mis-information?

I mean ................................. I just don't get it.

No rose.

It was all from the source...none of it was mine....

I dont want any roses.

 

[Lisa Denton]

It was all from the source...none of it was mine....

I dont want any roses.

Thank you for clearing that up, I don't think you should quote that expert, it sounds rather "queer."

Perhaps if it was quoted by a Native-American woman who said "speaking for myself only" then it might be useful information.

Without that, it is possibly dangerous mis-information in itself.

You don't like my roses?

 

[cloudy]

And yes, there is not a single white scholar that is objective in anything native...

They can't be an "authority" because they have no idea, just like you don't. Do you know how many times researchers were lied to over the years because we found them silly and gullible and giving them misinformation amusing?

None of the natives I've ever known used the word, but they were mainly Cree, Blackfoot, Lakota, Gwt'chn, Tlingit, Inuit...

..and most likely you will never hear a native use it because it's an insult.

Put that in your "authority" pipe and smoke it.

eta: I truly don't mean to be such a bitch, but do you realize how patronizing it is to tell someone of a different race than you how much more you know about their history/language/etc. than they do? You're not doing yourself any favors here.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

They can't be an "authority" because they have no idea, just like you don't. Do you know how many times researchers were lied to over the years because we found them silly and gullible and giving them misinformation amusing?


..and most likely you will never hear a native use it because it's an insult.

Put that in your "authority" pipe and smoke it.

eta: I truly don't mean to be such a bitch, but do you realize how patronizing it is to tell someone of a different race than you how much more you know about their history/language/etc. than they do? You're not doing yourself any favors here.

I would like your comment on this. Here is the link to the site. Click Here

And I'm not arguing that you, and many other people find the word offensive. I'm only discussing the origin of the word itself.

What is the origin of the English word squaw?

'Squaw' is one of a number of words in English that were borrowed from Eastern Algonquian languages, sometimes via French, during the early contact period. The source in this case is conventionally Massachusett squas (Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd Edition). The term meant 'young woman' in Massachusett and is attested as early as 1624. In fact, related words derived from Proto-Algonquian *et^kwe:wa (t^ represents a theta - a th sound) 'woman' occur throughout the Algonquian language family. Mostly they're fairly similar to the proto-form and each other (cf. Cree iskwe:w), though in a few languages the descendant form is so modified by accumulated sound changes that only someone familiar with the changes involved would recognize it, e.g., Arapahoe híthei. Bright's useful summary of this cites Cutler 1994 and Goddard 1996, 1997 for the etymology of the term.

Recently 'squaw' has been spuriously associated with a Mohawk term otsískwa? 'female genitalia'. The ? here represents a glottal stop - the sound represented by dash in (h)uh-uh 'no'. This sounds to English ears somewhat like [ojiskwa] (oh-gee-squah in the Lewis & Clark Phonetic Alphabet). Bright says this incorrect explanation was first offered by Sanders & Peck in 1974 and then popularized in a television interview by Suzan Harjo. The terrible salaciousness of it all has outraged the socially sensitive and captured popular imagination so effectively that the long known actual explanation in terms of Massachussett tends to get overlooked.

Bright, William. n.d.. The Sociolinguistics of the 'S- Word': 'Squaw' in American Placenames.
Cutler, Charles L. 1994. O Brave New Words! Native American Loanwords in Current English. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press.
Goddard, Ives. 1996. The English Word ‘Squaw.’ Report to the Arizona Board on Geographic and Historic Names.

Goddard, Ives. 1997. ‘Since the Word Squaw Continues to be of Interest.’ News from Indian Country, Mid-April, p. 19A.

Harjo, Suzan. 1992. Statement on Oprah Winfrey TV show, ‘Racism in 1992: Native Americans.’ Quoted in Goddard 1997.
Sanders, Thomas E., & Walter W. Peck. 1973 (eds.) Literature of the American Indian. Berkeley: Glencoe.

 

[Liar]

eta: I truly don't mean to be such a bitch, but do you realize how patronizing it is to tell someone of a different race than you how much more you know about their history/language/etc. than they do? You're not doing yourself any favors here.

Just thought of this when I read that:

Not that it means much re. who knows better on native American history, you or dark...

...but my teachers on Swedish social history, and Swedish linguistics, who knows a gazillion times more about that than I a Swede do, and lecture me about it on a daily basis, are respectively Greek and German.

 

[The_Darkness]

Not to thread jack here, but I think we can all agree that there are some fairly offensive place names, taking this conversation in context (i.e. there are a multitude of "Squaw Creek"s throughout the US). But what about sports teams? More to the point, what about sports teams that have potentially offensive mascots simply because they represent a specific culture, even though the culture in question WANTS the team to bear their name. Case in point, the Unversity of North Dakota.

UND is called "The Fighting Sioux." Some folks immediately find that offensive because it implies that the Sioux are blood thirsty murders....or something...."they" never did list their reasoning on this point. The University, however, has gone to great lengths and has a tradition of cooperation with the local Native folks, and the Natives generally feel honored that the school chooses to commemorate them with thier mascot. Even more to strengthen this case is the fact that when the school decided to redesign the mascot, they went to the tribe and said, "design us a mascot." In return, they got a beautiful young Sioux warrior head in profile.

The NCAA is currently (or will be shortly) fining them 10,000 per game that they play in because their mascot is "Racially Offensive"

As a side note, I don't find the Notre Dame mascot particularly offensive, even though I'm Irish, and I think what one intramural team at the University of Colorado, Denver, is hilarious....they named their Intramural Basketball team "Fightin' Whity" and they have a pretty ethnically diverse team.

So in the grand question, when is a word simply a word, and when should we say "Okay, we're not going to use that word anymore," versus "This word has lost its power and society has progressed. Fire away, kids." If that line is drawn at someone being offended, it becomes too subjective. I, for one, am disgusted by hairy chested guys wearing tight pink shirts. Does that mean we outlaw it, or do I simply deal and move on?

I do agree that the place names with "Squaw" in them and the term in general, being as offensive as it is, should probably not be used....as with a great many other words.

 

[Belegon]

Hey fellow savage!

He's being a little misguided but not malicious. He's on the defensive. Men tend to do that, as you well know. Give him a chance to back off and save face and he will.

In other words, you already won....accept the victory.

Just for the record, I can't remember thinking of that word without considering it derogatory. And that's the important part to me. I don't care if it really means "pine needle"...what it means NOW is insulting IMHO.

 

[elsol]

I tend not to think about gay people at all... I'm straight, why would I? Never understood why straight type people worry so much about gay type people.

Bi-sexual girls... now thems I think about ALL the time.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Hey fellow savage!

He's being a little misguided but not malicious. He's on the defensive. Men tend to do that, as you well know. Give him a chance to back off and save face and he will.

In other words, you already won....accept the victory.

Just for the record, I can't remember thinking of that word without considering it derogatory. And that's the important part to me. I don't care if it really means "pine needle"...what it means NOW is insulting IMHO.

I was never challenging whether the word was offensive. I was only challenging the origin of the word. Like I said previously, I always thought it was an ugly word. To me, it was never a win or lose situation.

Our language is constantly evolving, and words take on new meanings.

Where I grew up a fag was a cigarette. Pissed meant drunk, and not angry or upset. It's interesting to watch how one person can change the whole view on a single word. It's watching language evolve.

 

[Tom Collins]

Give me a day or so to come up with a way to ask her without getting my mouth washed out with soap.

I'd recomend being forthright with her. Just tell her that you have a friend who's writing a story and needs the translation to be as accuarate as possible because it's an integral part of the tale.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'd recomend being forthright with her. Just tell her that you have a friend who's writing a story and needs the translation to be as accuarate as possible because it's an integral part of the tale.

"Please fuck my arse" is going to go over real well there...

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

"Camille ran about decorating the room with faggotry, even wearing a faggot upon her sleeve. She knew everyone would enjoy the setting for the joyous occasion."

I'm confused. What's wrong with that?

 

[shereads]

... the 'n' word which i can't even bring myself to type out.

Ask Amicus to type it for you. He's fine with it.

Anyone: Has "queer" become one of those insiders' words? (Okay for use by the group who'd be insulted if it came from someone else?) Or is it becoming mainsteam, like gay? "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" was such a popular TV show, it's practically made the word "queer" sound cuddly, like "dachshund puppy."

I can't keep up.

I remember when "queer" was only used as a slur, but that could be because I lived in the Bible Belt where no one was gay, but there were many "confirmed bachelors." To my knowledge, though, "faggot" was worse; it was used by the guys who beat up the guys who used "queer" as an insult.




Edited to add: Having different slang for lesbians and male homosexuals must complicate things when the invitations go out to those secret meetings where you define The Gay Agenda.

 

[Tom Collins]

"Please fuck my arse" is going to go over real well there...

Ah...well... PMSL

 

[Tom Collins]

"Camille ran about decorating the room with faggotry, even wearing a faggot upon her sleeve. She knew everyone would enjoy the setting for the joyous occasion."

I'm confused. What's wrong with that?

She was wearing a small bundle of fire kindling on her sleeve? Seems odd to me.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

She was wearing a small bundle of fire kindling on her sleeve? Seems odd to me.

It's also a small corsage made of sticks.

 

[Tom Collins]

It's also a small corsage made of sticks.

That really doesn't sound any more attractive. LOL I guess I'd have to see one, but since it's obvious by the context that she's not wearing a gay man on her sleeve, I see nothing wrong with it.

It is a bit queer sounding though.

 

[gauchecritic]

That really doesn't sound any more attractive. LOL I guess I'd have to see one, but since it's obvious by the context that she's not wearing a gay man on her sleeve, I see nothing wrong with it.

It is a bit queer sounding though.

On the other hand she could be wearing meatballs on her sleeve.

I understand that wearing gay men on your arm is the coming thing for society events.

 

[Grushenka]

I understand that wearing gay men on your arm is the coming thing for society events.

That's been done for ages (beards). However, it's only recently that the men-on-arms are 'out' publicly.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

On the other hand she could be wearing meatballs on her sleeve.

I understand that wearing gay men on your arm is the coming thing for society events.

Although there are a number of places where you may not use Bull Balls (also known as Truck Nutz) trailer hitches though

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l27/Jenny_Jackson/ScreenShot201.jpg

 

[Dar~]

Well, a "bulldyke" is a subset of "butch dyke", see, which is a subset of "dyke" which is more or less tangentially aligned with "lipstick lesbian"- itself a subset of- here, I'll draw up the flowchart

Also, if you judge every group by the behavior of the one you knew in high school, how will the babies ever get made, eh?

A new one I just got acquainted with is diesel dyke

 

[Dr_Strabismus]

I don't mind never saying being allowed to say "Squaw" again, as long as I can continue using it in Scrabble.

 

[Dr_Strabismus]

That's been done for ages (beards). However, it's only recently that the men-on-arms are 'out' publicly.

I thought they were called hag fags.