Someone killed a policeman today..........

[Angelique]

Forgive me for being harsh on my past post here...

Perhaps I should have been more specific with my reasons for posting so harshly earlier on this thread. In no way did I intend to sound so uncaring towards the family of the little boy, or even judgemental towards his actions. I thought about elaborating on my response, but I didn't wish to turn the subject of this thread...so I'll explain my 'tainted' response regarding the subject of children who disregard the law (be it state law, or the laws set down by parents).

Having my own daughter involved in several situations at her fathers house that involve other children and sexual misconduct (not quite the same as this particular situation I know, but hear me out), I find myself being judgemental towards the juvenile judicial system. Three small boys were involved here as well, dating as far back as six years ago. Even though I brought these circumstances to the courts attention, I was still forced to have my daughter visit with her father in an unsafe environment, while I watched the three boys go through "counseling", 12-step programs, and visits with psychologists.

At that time, the courts felt that rehabbing these children would eliminate any future problems. They couldn't have been more wrong.

As I have mentioned before in another thread, one of the boys (age 15) was arrested and convicted on two counts of rape against two six year old boys, and yet another attempt was made with my daughter.

I'm very bitter towards the court for imposing a mere 18 month sentence, along with MORE COUNSELING. Counseling didn't work before, and I'm certain that it won't work again, yet I'm once again forced to allow visits to continue with my daughter and my ex-husband. And it's the fact that the Ohio Judicial System has failed my own daughter so many times in the past that I posted the harsh and judgemental comments that I made on the first page of this thread.

Does it justify my comments? No, not at all...but it gives you insight on my motivation to be so harsh. As I read the story I was reminded of my own situation, while genuinely different, and the words I wrote were prejudiced and tainted.

So to any of you that I offended, I sincerely apologize...they were typed by a woman who has lost faith in the judicial system, and one who sits here at this very moment, fearing that because my ex-husband has failed his own daughter on numerous occasions, my daughter will inevitably be exposed to much worse than she already has been.

Fear is an amazing emotion that sometimes motivates us think things we normally wouldn't ever dream of...and so I leave this thread, concerned for my daughters safety as she visits with her father for the next 2 1/2 hours.

-Angel

 

[Softly]

What I expect from Lasher. "Don't know what happened."

We know the boy was in a stolen vehicle, which in his hands becames a 4,000 pound death machine. We know the officer told him to not drive off. We know he did drive off, with the officer being dragged. Before the officer died, his crime was attempted vehicle homicide. When the officer died, he was guilty of murder.

Still wondering why the officer shot him?

Did he deserve to die? You bet.
Am I sorry for the parents? Not in the least. If they had been proper parents, they would have had that piece of shit under control.

My niece was killed by a kid fleeing from the police. She was in a coma for six years. This asshole killed a policeman. "That" is what happened.

If it was up to me, the police would have permission to "Fire at will," at a fleeing car. Kill the Bastards!

Not one cent to feed and house them.

 

[Gingersnap]

Blaming will not negate the tragedy that happened. I offer my prayers to you and will keep you in them. Thank you for continuing to go to work and not let hate take hold in your heart.

 

[Thumper]

Sad...

....that a simple traffic stop can degenerate so quickly. I am from the Cincinnati area and Adoratrice' post was my first news of this tragedy. I refrained from commenting until I heard more about it today. You cannot blame the officer for anything regarding this....how could you even imagine that a 12 year old boy would react this way. The boy had a history of sneaking out and driving his mothers car at night....what I wanna know is WTF kinda parent(s) is so asleep that they aren't aware of what their kids are up to? The neighbors were aware of this behaviour...so why did he get away with it??? If I see a 12 year old kid driving a car in my neighborhood you can bet your ass a whole lotta cops are gonna be around...Do I feel for the family of the child? No...if they were worried about his safety they would have kept an eye on him...I feel for the child..probably grew up without anyone caring...and I feel most for the family of the officer...he cared perhaps a little too much.
He is in a good place and just maybe he is still trying to help that child...

FYI..I am a truckdriver and we supposedly have no love lost for police officers...just wanted to say that I am glad you are out there and if you ever find yourself around Kenner and Dalton and you see me I will say Thank You personally.
For now I say it here
Thanks.

If you know the real ID of "Wait a minute" please tell us....I wanna know who to ignore...

[Edited by Thumper on 09-02-2000 at 02:09 PM]

 

[Havocman]

I'm Not a Police Officer But....

I am a dues paying member of the Fraternal Order of Police. I feel deeply sad at the passing of another who swore "To Protect and Serve"

I also protect and serve, and actually serve in a profession that is even more under-appreciated and ridculed than my brothers on the "Thin Blue Line". I could probably be a cop, but I just don't have the desire to put up with the daily amounts of shit they take from the public at large.

And now, if you will excuse me, it's time for me to put on my badge and sidearm and go to work.

Havoc the Guardian

 

[RonG]

Yes, I support the ACLU and Legal Aid, also.

This story made our paper this morning. I would love to be capable of offering equal condolences to both families but that isn't being honest with myself. I have nothing but admiration for law enforcement and failure to respect what they are trying to do definitely cheapens the kid's life on the scales of remorse. Attaching valences to human life is an uncomfortable process but we do it as a matter of course. An awful lot of what we do economically and socially is based on some people being worth more than others

As a private citizen, when I see someone intoxicated, stoned, belligerent, or out of control, I have the luxury of avoiding them and retreating without confrontation. Our cops have to deal with them - they can't turn their back like I can. Second guessing people who are forced to make decisions that I will never know is a habit that I try very hard not to give in to. I reserve the same opinion for a lot of doctors. That isn't meant as a free pass - when they intentionally step out of line, let the law deal with it. But quibbling over perfection in a split second decision that no amount of practice can prepare you for is good air in, bad air out. Kind of like the argument about the feds having weapons drawn when they got Elian Gonzales. They go into a hostile neighborhood and find uncooperative folks who run into a closet and we want our cops to just open the closet and smile? Prepare a lot of wreaths if we don't allow our enforcement people to have the upper hand morally and physically.

There is a lot of merit in the belief that the greatest invention of the last millenium is Due Process of Law. What a shame that so many people don't allow this wonder to take place!

 

[Lasher]

We are truly blessed

Wow, Softly, you made so many outstanding comments with your post. I've always admired you ability to cut to the heart of an issue and to disect it into easily understandable and salient points. You truly are a great individual and deserve all the praise that is heaped upon you on this board. I know that many here are much better people for having known you. I'm sure many believe it truly must have been God's own will to create an individual as uniquely intelligent and incisive as you have shown to be.

Some would say God bless you for posting here, and would also thank you for sparing even a few short moments of your time for those with lesser abilities. I have been told they appreciate you greatly.

C'mon now, everyone, let's hear it!

Three cheers for Softly!!!

Hip Hip.... HOORAY!
Hip Hip.... HOORAY!
Hip Hip.... HOORAY!

 

[Softly]

A brave man died

This thread is about a man who died in the duty of his country. Some of the posts responded to that.

Some of the posts are without merit. As in many other threads, Lasher has tried to demonstrate his wisdom.

Please read his two posts. Do you find them on subject or a contribution, in any way?

Below his name it states, "The Man, The Myth, The Legend."
Well,now, let us examine that. Is he a man, a true man, in the mold of the Kipling poem "If?" Do you want him defending you? Myth? A myth is someone who personifies a place or way of life. Carl East or Weird Harold comes to mind, not Lasher. Legend? A persons who has "done" something that others are in awe of. I know of no deed of Lasher's, of note.

I picture a skinny, pimply faced kid, of twenty two, probably with a degree in political science, sitting in a small room. He has his servers for his "Site" that provide him a small income. His wife carried the heavy load by working full time.

From time to time each day he "visits" this sites to post something, anything, so that he can see his name -LASHER-.

Sadly, posts like the ones that you see on this thread, are his best effort. Sadly for us, people like him are allowed to vote.

 

[teresafannin]

Thank you Isabella, it almost a year for us & I sometimes think it will never get better, only get different. I should have also said that I do feel terrible for the boy's family, I know better than most what it is like to lose a child to a gunshot wound. I also have to wonder at parents who can sleep through a child coming & going in the middle of the night. I must have been really wierd, because I could never go fully to sleep until I knew my son was home, unless he was staying at a friend's or on a scout/church/school trip, most of which I went along as a chaperone. I still lay awake some nights, waiting to hear his key in the lock, he would be 18 now. I am sure the officer did not want to kill that boy, but cars are dangerous enough in the hands of a good driver,much less a 12 year old kid. This situation is a tragedy for 2 families, as well as a whole city & the repercussions will be devastating. I still think that the responsibility for a child lies with the parents, when the parents fail,something should be done, unfortunately, CPS,etc is overworked, underpaid & children are the ones who ultimately pay the price. Thanks for letting me ramble on.

 

[Laurel]

He has his servers for his "Site" that provide him a small income. His wife carried the heavy load by working full time.

I don't want to get into the middle of this argument, but I have to make a correction here. It is in fact Lasher who works full-time AND runs his site while his wife attends school.

This situation is a tragedy for 2 families, as well as a whole city & the repercussions will be devastating.

I agree. The real responsibility here lies with the child's parents. There's a reason that children's crimes are not punished as adult crimes - because children are not capable of understanding the consequences of their actions. No one deserved to die here - not the cop, not the child. To say otherwise is wrong.

 

[Softly]

Lasher still does not get it.

Since you still have not address the thread, I will try another tack.

Lasher, if the Officer did not kill the boy, there would still have been a boy in a stolen vehicle that had to be stopped by another officer, who would have had to risk his life in persuit. In addition, every other vehicle passenger that was in his path was in danger.

What part of this do you not understand? You go to great lengths to attack me, even to the point of completly re-writing your last post, yet nothing you write is to the point.

You infer that some on the board do not like me. Well, if you steal cars, do drugs, or kill policeman, you have every reason to dislike me and my husband.

The Texans had it right. They hung horse theives, on the spot. I don't think they would have taken much guff from pimply faced kids, like you, either.

 

[Washingtonian]

I've been following this thread with interest but have not felt compelled to respond until now. One of my son-in-laws is a member of the California Highway Patrol. I have great respect for the uniform and for the man or woman it covers. However, I take great offense to Softly's statement that criminals should be hung on the spot. My son-in-law believes very strongly in the process of law, that's why he's a good policeman. The attitude you display is what makes the force look bad. It is absolutely treasonous for you to disrespect our legal system, the very thing that makes this great country the bastion of freedom and opportunity that it is. I fought in WWII saw first-hand the effects of a system of tyranny and fascism such as you praise. Perhaps Softly would feel more comfortable in Nazi Germany or even Iran where they do hang horse thieves without a trial, you obviously have no respect for America. Your comments make me ashamed of todays youth.

Adoratrice: Please send your husband my consolences and those of my son as well. Our prayers are with you and the other friends and family.

 

[Lasher]

Softly actually wants to discuss the TOPIC... YAY!!

Next time, if you really want an honest discussion, maybe you should start your post with something other than an unprovoked personal attack. Your attempt at taking the high road now reeks of hypocrisy.

But I'd love to discuss the topic.....

Ok, the post that I believe Softly took so much offense to was where I said that the only 2 people who really know what happened at the time of the incident are now dead. I didn't realize this would cause such a controversy, because it looks like such an obvious FACT to me. But since it seems to be a problem for some, I decided to actually do a little research.....

So let's start with this article from today's "Cincinnati Enquirer"

http://enquirer.com/editions/2000/09/03/loc_drivers_may_help.html

Now, what do you suppose it says?

They hope that the drivers — and other witnesses — will help answer a number of questions:

• What Courtney wanted with a paper funnel, the kind used to pour oil into a car. Courtney asked for one at the United Dairy Farmers store shortly before he was confronted by Officer Crayon.

• Why a seventh-grader with no criminal record was driving a car — and refused to obey Officer Crayon's commands to stop the car.

• What made Officer Crayon put his hands inside the boy's car — a dangerous move that officers are cautioned against making.

Those statements right there contradict alot of the so-called "facts" that have been posted on this thread to date. Now, if someone such as Softly is basing her opinions solely on the information posted on this forum, then I can certainly understand why her opinion is so misinformed. Fortunately for everyone, I believe in discovering things on my own and not relying on the words of anonymous strangers for so-called "facts".

But the important thing here is that the information I've seen tells me I'm right - we don't have enough information on this incident yet to determine what happened and why. God forbid that we actually err on the side of caution and wait for some semblance of fact to be presented before forming opinions. My posts on this thread (and others) were in response to those knee-jerk posters who instantly believe every printed word they see as the God's honest truth and respond accordingly. However, the TRUTH is actually a bicth to find, in most cases you actually have to look for it.

Now, if you want my OPINION on what probably happened (and I'm sure many of you do not, but too fucking bad) - my guess is that Officer Crayon is responsible for 2 deaths, his own and the boy's. It looks to me that he placed himself in a situation where he lost control (i.e. Officer Crayon put his hands inside the boy's car — a dangerous move that officers are cautioned against making.), and then made an even greater mistake in shooting the 12 year old boy. I was surprised to find out that the boy actually continued to drive the vehicle AFTER he had been shot in the chest. It's entirely possible that the boy's reaction to being shot caused him to lose control of the vehicle and that may have been the moment that Officer Crayon was thrown from the vehicle.

Unfortunately, this is all speculation, because we STILL do not have the facts.

Now, for those who believe that a 12 year old boy should die just because he was a POTENTIAL automobile accident risk - just think about how ridiculous that sounds. If you follow that reasoning to it's logical conclusion, I'm gonna haul ass to the gun shop and my daily commute is going to move a hell of a lot quicker. EVERY single driver is a POTENTIAL automobile accident risk. I don't remember if it was this thread or another that I posted how it causes me to shudder each time I read ill-thought opinions of that nature, but my opinion has not changed.

Now, Softly, if you have some FACTS you would like to discuss, I'd be more than happy to see them.

Otherwise, well.......


[Edited by Lasher on 09-03-2000 at 02:00 PM]

 

[Siren]

Ok, I want to interject here.

 

[Siren]

One more point

 

[Cheyenne]

Siren, it is actually unfortunate, but you have the unique perspective of understanding all of the different sides to this incident from personal experience. Your summary was excellent, and hopefully Softly and Lasher both see the logic in it.

My sympathy to you on the loss of your brother, as well.

 

[teresafannin]

Siren, I also wanted to extend my sympathy in the death of your brother. I admire you a lot for speaking at sentencing, I am sure it was very difficult for you. There will be trial for us, the man who committed the murders of my son & 6 others, killed himself at the end. There is no justice for us.

 

[Siren]

Teresafannin......

 

[Rosebud]

Thank you Lasher for bringing in a few more details...sorry I made you shudder...I am positive it wasn't the first time. Softly, You have no idea how far off you are in what you think Lasher is like. And to my Siren...thanks for putting info up for us in a pleasant way, unlike some here. I was wrong when I said the boy should have died, but I still believe the laws are to soft for children. And I firmly believe that kids do understand what they are doing and why they are doing it. He might have been scared and that led to both dying, but he knew he was wrong in the first place to go out in a car, he was a thrill seeker, and he paid dearly for the stupid mistake he made.

[Edited by Rosebud on 09-04-2000 at 06:03 AM]