the atheist/agnostic conundrum

[silverwhisper]

i have a friend who's a christian that is undergoing what i fear may be the beginnings of a crisis of faith.

i consider myself an agnostic. offering a friend what comfort i can when he or she is hurting is what i do, what we all do.

but this situation creates for me a conundrum. while i do not share his faith, i respect it, and i responded by offering what solace i could and asking someone else, another christian, to offer my friend the christian counsel that i cannot.

my question, though: i believe i can cite the relevant scriptural passages (if not the citations) to offer some faith-based comfort, but my friend knows i don't share that faith. would it be insulting/arrogant if i were to attempt to do so, given the foregoing?

i really would appreciate the perspective of those who are theists on the matter particularly, or of other agnostics/atheists who've been in a similar situation.

ed

 

[Vail_Indigo]

i have a friend who's a christian that is undergoing what i fear may be the beginnings of a crisis of faith.

i consider myself an agnostic. offering a friend what comfort i can when he or she is hurting is what i do, what we all do.

but this situation creates for me a conundrum. while i do not share his faith, i respect it, and i responded by offering what solace i could and asking someone else, another christian, to offer my friend the christian counsel that i cannot.

my question, though: i believe i can cite the relevant scriptural passages (if not the citations) to offer some faith-based comfort, but my friend knows i don't share that faith. would it be insulting/arrogant if i were to attempt to do so, given the foregoing?

i really would appreciate the perspective of those who are theists on the matter particularly, or of other agnostics/atheists who've been in a similar situation.

ed

I consider myself an atheist. Some people say I'm an agnostic because I'm not saying 'there is no god', but rather 'I have no reason to believe there is a god'. So, I suppose, they feel that I'm really saying 'I do not know if there's a god, but there might be' and in their minds, that makes me an agnostic. In my mind, I'm an atheist because, just like I don't have any reason to believe there's a gorilla in my closet...
ANYHOW, just getting that out there before I voice my opinion here

Ultimately, I don't think you can help this person out much with scripture. They are going through a thing that you really don't have experience with or even the right perspective for. Wow, convoluted sentence there.
I suppose its like trying to comfort someone who has just lost a child when you've never had one.
Anything you say will be seen as coming from someone who doesn't understand.
Because in a very real way, you don't.
That said...I think the best thing you can do for this person is to simply be there and listen. If they need the scriptures, they'll find it.
However, I don't think that that will help much anyways. Faith isn't about the words in a book. Its about something deeper inside you.
Its a journey, not a map.

 

[elib257]

This is a really interesting question. I don't think you'll find a perfect answer.

I think that you can find comfort from religious or spiritual sources whatever you do or do not believe it. And I think that if you find comfort from that then it would be wholly appropriate for you to introduce your friend to that source of comfort for you.

However, if what you're talking about is reading scriptures to her/him that you don't believe in or ones that offer no comfort to you then you're wasting your time. They know that you don't believe it, you know that you don't believe it and all in all it seems like purely going through the motions.

In reality if she/he is part of a religious group then they will have others who can offer them the advice that you would be offering from that religious background. What you have to offer is a different perspective, one that is just as valid and likely to be just as helpful to them.

I know it's not much of a help but I may come back later with more opinions.

Good luck

 

[cutebrowngirl]

*please excuse the grammar and structure as i am typing from my phone*

i am an atheist raised in a strict pentecostal setting. ofcourse my parents are embarrassed about this and instead of realizing it they choose to be in denial. "she will come around" to define my understanding of an atheist, i don't believe in any god in any way shape or form. i believe in science.
as far as your friend, it really depends on their situation. why is he saying his faith is faltering? that is the real issue.
if it is because of something like, death, or stress but not a real issue of whether or not they believe in a god, but more of an issue of needing moral support, you can definitely be of assistance. you don't have to quote scriptures to help a friend through such a time. However, if they are truly questioning their faith, you can only offer your truth. there is nothing dishonest in that. there is all kinds of reading material out there as well. maybe the two of you could journey to your local bookstore. maybe there he can find the truth for himself either reinforcing what he believes or finding an alternative. ofcourse, this is if he finds no solace in his church.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I am Christian and have friends who are both atheist and agnostic.

FWIW I would be very touched if they went to the trouble of reading me some encouraging scriptures. Lots of atheists/agnostics say that they respect people who believe in God but all that usually means is that they don't call them gullible flat-earthers to their face. For someone who didn't share my faith to respect me and my beliefs enough to give me support within my belief system would mean a great deal to me.

I hope I'm not the only Christian who thinks this way.

 

[cutebrowngirl]

I am Christian and have friends who are both atheist and agnostic.

FWIW I would be very touched if they went to the trouble of reading me some encouraging scriptures. Lots of atheists/agnostics say that they respect people who believe in God but all that usually means is that they don't call them gullible flat-earthers to their face. For someone who didn't share my faith to respect me and my beliefs enough to give me support within my belief system would mean a great deal to me.

I hope I'm not the only Christian who thinks this way.

i hate to say it velvet but as stated earlier for an atheist or agnostic to offer "christian help" would be lying. to respect someone else's faith doesn't mean to pretend to practice it. that would actually be disrespectful. what is most important in this situation, is to be a true friend and leave the bible references to people who believe in it. besides that, i doubt this friend would seek help from someone with different beliefs, if they didn't value different insight. i understand what you mean but that would be lying.

 

[fire_breeze]

Many people go through some sort of crisis of faiths, whatever paths they ascribe to. Perhaps the best you could do is be there for him/her, offering to listen whenever s/he needs. If, there is a passage that you feel relevant and that you can relate to, then you could mention it to him/her. Not only will be the gesture, in my opinion be appreciated, but the person will be able to feel that you yourself can sympathise with that particular passage. After all, one does not need to believe in a particular religion to appreciate the scriptures and to find relevance, guidance and dare I say it, even truth? in some of it's passages.

i don't believe in any god in any way shape or form. i believe in science.

I know this isn't the thread to do so, nor do I mean to start any contention. I merely wish to point out that many many people of faiths (whether they be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, etc) 'believe' in science. The two are not mutually exclusive. Many of the world's greatest scientific minds throughout history, up to and including today, were/are persons of devout faiths. Albert Einstein was a devout Jew, Ahmed Zewail (Nobel prize winner in chemistry) is a practicing Muslim and a relative mine is a priest who is also a premier evolutionary biologists, to name a few examples. Again, I meant no harm, nor do I mean to stir up trouble. However, I do feel that this point needed to be brought up....

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Many people go through some sort of crisis of faiths, whatever paths they ascribe to. Perhaps the best you could do is be there for him/her, offering to listen whenever s/he needs. If, there is a passage that you feel relevant and that you can relate to, then you could mention it to him/her. Not only will be the gesture, in my opinion be appreciated, but the person will be able to feel that you yourself can sympathise with that particular passage. After all, one does not need to believe in a particular religion to appreciate the scriptures and to find relevance, guidance and dare I say it, even truth? in some of it's passages.



I know this isn't the thread to do so, nor do I mean to start any contention. I merely wish to point out that many many people of faiths (whether they be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, etc) 'believe' in science. The two are not mutually exclusive. Many of the world's greatest scientific minds throughout history, up to and including today, were/are persons of devout faiths. Albert Einstein was a devout Jew, Ahmed Zewail (Nobel prize winner in chemistry) is a practicing Muslim and a relative mine is a priest who is also a premier evolutionary biologists, to name a few examples. Again, I meant no harm, nor do I mean to stir up trouble. However, I do feel that this point needed to be brought up....

ACTUALLY, that bit about Einstein is untrue. He actually haerd people using him as an example of a scientific mind that believed in god and was always refuting it.
Ultimately, believing in god means that, at some point, you believe that science ends.
However, this is hardly the correct thread for this, but I do feel that this point needed to be brought up.

 

[fire_breeze]

ACTUALLY, that bit about Einstein is untrue. He actually haerd people using him as an example of a scientific mind that believed in god and was always refuting it.
Ultimately, believing in god means that, at some point, you believe that science ends.
However, this is hardly the correct thread for this, but I do feel that this point needed to be brought up.

Fair enough, and a very valid point as well. With Einstein, who was always a controversial figure at best (just read his diaries, you'll understand, lol), I merely brought up to illustrate a point. Perhaps he was not the best example, but he was the first one that came into mind. And my mind's filled with equations at the moment.

So. Shall we merely say that we are both right?

 

[Vail_Indigo]

So. Shall we merely say that we are both right?

ummm....no. I will say, however, that we are both entitled to our own views on things

 

[Guest]

Einstein is also quoted as having said, "You can never solve a problem on the level on which it was created."

The crisis of faith lies not in the Scriptures--they are what they are, neither more nor less, and they have neither changed nor created the problem.

What's presumably changed (the level on which the problem was created) is how he either understands and/or feels about them. The next level above that is to clarify why and how he has changed. Based on my experience, if the why and how of that change are clear to him, then he'll be in a position to reinterpret and re-embrace his faith, or to leave it.

That's the most fruitful area to lend an ear, and a shoulder, if need be. You don't have to be a Christian, or even know Scripture, to be a good listener to one. And should he decide to leave his faith, he'll likely need a friend more than ever. It can be a tremendous loss.

My USD 1/50th.

 

[Chicklet]

my question, though: i believe i can cite the relevant scriptural passages (if not the citations) to offer some faith-based comfort, but my friend knows i don't share that faith. would it be insulting/arrogant if i were to attempt to do so, given the foregoing?

I'm an Atheist, and I would never do this kind of thing for my friend.

I don't know if I completely agree that it's insulting/arrogant, but I don't think it has any meaning coming from someone who doesn't believe it. It might nurture their cynicism instead of their faith.

 

[cutebrowngirl]

Fair enough, and a very valid point as well. With Einstein, who was always a controversial figure at best (just read his diaries, you'll understand, lol), I merely brought up to illustrate a point. Perhaps he was not the best example, but he was the first one that came into mind. And my mind's filled with equations at the moment.

So. Shall we merely say that we are both right?

Vail_indigo is right. science and religion does not go hand in hand. it's always science vs. religion. the number one argument for this is creationism vs. evolution. the two do part. and no i don't agree that an atheist/agnostic using the bible to comfort a friend is at all honest. like someone stated earlier, they will know you are being insincere if you don't believe in the overall "premise" so to speak. as an atheist why would i draw from bible passages to comfort a friend when there are so many other references i could honestly use that could also bring comfort. as i said before, one does not need a bible to comfort a friend in such a situation.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Vail_indigo is right. science and religion does not go hand in hand. it's always science vs. religion. the number one argument for this is creationism vs. evolution. the two do part. and no i don't agree that an atheist/agnostic using the bible to comfort a friend is at all honest. like someone stated earlier, they will know you are being insincere if you don't believe in the overall "premise" so to speak. as an atheist why would i draw from bible passages to comfort a friend when there are so many other references i could honestly use that could also bring comfort. as i said before, one does not need a bible to comfort a friend in such a situation.

(actualy, I don't think it ends up being science vs religion, necessarily. I simply have never heard an argument for the existence of god other than 'we can not answer this question, therefor there must be a god'. To me, a scientist who believes in god has, basically, given up)

 

[Corbie]

I disagree. There are always questions that science has yet to be able to answer, and honestly there is still the whole missing link thing. I don't mean to turn this into a discussion on evolution, but there are many questions that Darwin couldn't answer, and scientists still can't.

Darwin described shifts within a species, motivated by certain conditions. But he was never able to prove the shift from one species to the next. Even today scientists are unable to show a species to species evolution. They are able to theorize, but have yet to prove a lot of it.

There is the question, that still hasn't been answered, of the complexity of the body. Let's take the eye for a moment.

The eye is wonderful. But in the days of the ameoba(sp), which came first, the eye or the development of the optic nerve to transmit that visual input? And how did the evolving ameoba know it needed visual input to survive?

These questions point to an outside designer directing the process. At least to me.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I disagree. There are always questions that science has yet to be able to answer, and honestly there is still the whole missing link thing. I don't mean to turn this into a discussion on evolution, but there are many questions that Darwin couldn't answer, and scientists still can't.

Darwin described shifts within a species, motivated by certain conditions. But he was never able to prove the shift from one species to the next. Even today scientists are unable to show a species to species evolution. They are able to theorize, but have yet to prove a lot of it.

There is the question, that still hasn't been answered, of the complexity of the body. Let's take the eye for a moment.

The eye is wonderful. But in the days of the ameoba(sp), which came first, the eye or the development of the optic nerve to transmit that visual input? And how did the evolving ameoba know it needed visual input to survive?

These questions point to an outside designer directing the process. At least to me.

"scientists still can't"
'Still' is the operative word here.
500 years ago, people couldn't answer why things fell to the ground.
They couldn't answer why the sun burned
they couldn't answer how disease was transmitted.

Now they can.

So yes, scientists still can't answer all evolution-type questions.
But that doesn't mean they won't tomorrow.
When you say there must, then, be a god, you are basically giving up.

 

[cutebrowngirl]

let me put it this way. one cannot use the science to prove the bible right. science refutes creationism outright.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

i hate to say it velvet but as stated earlier for an atheist or agnostic to offer "christian help" would be lying. to respect someone else's faith doesn't mean to pretend to practice it. that would actually be disrespectful. what is most important in this situation, is to be a true friend and leave the bible references to people who believe in it. besides that, i doubt this friend would seek help from someone with different beliefs, if they didn't value different insight. i understand what you mean but that would be lying.

I understand what you're saying but at the same time, I think that calling such an act lying, however misguided you think it is, is a little extreme.

When I talk with atheist friends about things like science, history, evolution theory, whatever, I approach the subject knowing and respecting their view on things. I don't beat them around the head with a Bible, I just discuss things with a view to the fact that they believe something specific that I don't. I don't feel dishonest when i do this.

I can see how sharing scriptures with someone when you're atheist could be seen as false or hypocritical but SilverWhisper is agnostic and therefore entitled to a degree of fence sitting (even when he gets kicked from both sides.) If a person's motives were good and their purpose was to support and encourage me, I would take whatever they shared in the spirit of kindness with which it was meant.

I don't see how that makes either party deceitful.

 

[cutebrowngirl]

I disagree. There are always questions that science has yet to be able to answer, and honestly there is still the whole missing link thing. I don't mean to turn this into a discussion on evolution, but there are many questions that Darwin couldn't answer, and scientists still can't.

Darwin described shifts within a species, motivated by certain conditions. But he was never able to prove the shift from one species to the next. Even today scientists are unable to show a species to species evolution. They are able to theorize, but have yet to prove a lot of it.

There is the question, that still hasn't been answered, of the complexity of the body. Let's take the eye for a moment.

The eye is wonderful. But in the days of the ameoba(sp), which came first, the eye or the development of the optic nerve to transmit that visual input? And how did the evolving ameoba know it needed visual input to survive?

These questions point to an outside designer directing the process. At least to me.

somewhere in all of this, i missed your post. i don't quite understand what you mean when you say, the species shifted from one to another. it's all about survival of the fittest. natural selection. what doesn't work dies off and what does prospers.
as i have not started studying the eye and optic nerves in a&p yet, i cannot explain to you how the eye works in detail but i can give you my "evolutionary" input as i have a great reference. the amoeba doesn't know anything. the occasional mutation that increases the amoeba's reproductive success is preserved and spreads and produces over time. the individual organisms do not evolve. populations evolve. the amoeba's role is to survive and reproduce or die. those with the beneficial mutation are more likely to survive. if you want more information, pick up a copy. the counter-creationism handbook by mark isaak.

 

[cutebrowngirl]

i understand what you are saying velvet and objectively when a friend isn't distressed discussing or referencing the bible is just fine by me. when it starts to feel contrived when atheist/agnostics start to reference it to cheer a christian friend. there are other ways. why not utilize them? would you trust me if i am trying to help you strengthen your faith by quoting from what i believe to be false. i am not saying it's impossible. i am saying, choosing a different source may help them feel a little less like you are just trying to placate them.
for the life of me, i am still trying to figure out what stance you are taking when debating evolution with your friends. are you pretending to be atheist? well to each his own...i guess.

 

[Eilan]

my question, though: i believe i can cite the relevant scriptural passages (if not the citations) to offer some faith-based comfort, but my friend knows i don't share that faith. would it be insulting/arrogant if i were to attempt to do so, given the foregoing?

I have no doubt, knowing you as I do, that you have more than enough scriptural knowledge (probably more than some so-called Christians, to be honest) to offer faith-based comfort to your friend.

Should you? I don't know. I've never been in your situation, but if I were, I think I'd try to be a friend in other ways.

You're a good friend.

 

[chelleb]

I am Christian and have friends who are both atheist and agnostic.

FWIW I would be very touched if they went to the trouble of reading me some encouraging scriptures. Lots of atheists/agnostics say that they respect people who believe in God but all that usually means is that they don't call them gullible flat-earthers to their face. For someone who didn't share my faith to respect me and my beliefs enough to give me support within my belief system would mean a great deal to me.

I hope I'm not the only Christian who thinks this way.

No, Velvet, you're not. I was trying to form my opinion into words when I read your post. I have nothing to add to it. You've stated it better than I could ever hope to.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

i am still trying to figure out what stance you are taking when debating evolution with your friends. are you pretending to be atheist? well to each his own...i guess.

To be honest there are very few people with whom I'll sit and discuss my beliefs or sensitive subjects like this if I know they don't share them. The close friends that I do dissemble and discuss things with, I'm careful to allow them their point of view without agreeing with it myself and vice versa. I don't talk with them the same way I would a fellow Christian or even someone who believes in a totally different God or Gods. There's no point and it would sound preachy. I tend to find whatever common ground there may be and try to keep things positive and genial.

I'm probably not conveying exactly what I mean very well but I find your tone very combative and sense that we are not going to agree on this regardless.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

And just where have you sloped off to Ed? *taps foot*

Lit the fuse and retired on this one didn't you?

Puts cookies out to lure him back.

http://www.treasureboxtreats.com/images/cc_cookies.jpg

 

[fgarvb1]

i have a friend who's a christian that is undergoing what i fear may be the beginnings of a crisis of faith.

i consider myself an agnostic. offering a friend what comfort i can when he or she is hurting is what i do, what we all do.

but this situation creates for me a conundrum. while i do not share his faith, i respect it, and i responded by offering what solace i could and asking someone else, another christian, to offer my friend the christian counsel that i cannot.

my question, though: i believe i can cite the relevant scriptural passages (if not the citations) to offer some faith-based comfort, but my friend knows i don't share that faith. would it be insulting/arrogant if i were to attempt to do so, given the foregoing?

i really would appreciate the perspective of those who are theists on the matter particularly, or of other agnostics/atheists who've been in a similar situation.

ed

Many, many times God uses people like yourself to do his will.

My advise is to try to help because you feel compelled to help...Might not be you doing the compelling.

He has been known to use even cracked vessels like myself even with out my knowledge when he wants to.