The Double Standard

[Pure]

Christa I guess I have been lucky in that I can seem to travel in the high falutin and scum sucking levels of society and just about everywhere in between.

pleased to meet ya. you see, according to the double standard i can go to the sleaziest bar or stripclub or "strip" [a la Hugh Grant] and come out unsullied, whereas many women "wouldn't be caught dead..." as the saying goes.

best, from another

gutter denizen

 

[FallingToFly]

From personal experience- men are the most critical bastards about women who like sex with multiple partners.

A guy who fucks around on his wife is okay, a woman who goes out and finds herself a lover who can actually satisfy her is a whore.

Double standards suck big blue donkey balls.

 

[ishtat]

I'd wonder if you could direct me to this reference on the Minoans being a goddess-based society. A girl I know is active in Minoan research and from what she says, the identity of the Minoan pantheon is quite an archaeological puzzle. There are strong masculine elements in their religion - the bull-vaulting, the ubiquity of the double-headed axe, and sun-worship - and their writing's never been deciphered.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this, but the modern cult of the goddess has a tendency to take an overly simplistic view of religious history and look back to a golden age of goddess worship that the archaeological evidence often doesn't really support. The result is often more political than historical, a kind of reverse religious sexism: goddess=always good, god=always bad.

I'm thinking for example of the examples of goddess worship found at Catal Huyuk, a very early neolithic site found in southern Turkey dating from the dawn of agriculture, where the signs of the goddess include the disturbing images of breasts with the beaks of predatory birds inserted in place of nipples. It's not sure just what these bas-reliefs (they're found in the walls of houses) are trying to tell us, but they paint a much different image of the local goddess than the benign mother-figure we usually associate with agricultural communities. They almost suggest the kind of bloody crop demons more commonly seen in meso-American Corn Goddesses who demand the blood of sacrifices.

Try a book written about 15 20 years ago by two women one of whom was Jules Cashford.Can't remember the other name. It is still in print and available on Amazon. It examines a whole series of ancient "mother Goddesses" including those of Minoan Crete. I think it may be titled "The Myth of the Goddess, Evolution of an Image"

Just remembered, the other author was Anne Baring. Van der Post gets onto the title page but he only wrote the preface and the women's work is far more impressive than anything he ever wrote.

 

[Stella_Omega]

stella My guess is that women censure promiscuous women far more than men do.

P well, yes, in zorba the greek women lynch a woman.

however, up in Vancouver, a fellow killed 30 or more prostitutes* over the years, undetected. the police did not care.

it might be mentioned that the promiscous or pro women who run afoul of the law are arrested, tried, and sentenced by males. if a pro does jail time, it was a man who put here there, by the odds.

further, if you look a whom men marry, their standards are in evidence; the literal and figurative {=promiscuous} hos do not do well.

women, of course, have a status system. i imagine that almost no woman here has been acquainted with a prostitute, even to the extent of having a coffee. the 'good' women hang together, as do the 'bad.' so the 'good' don't have hostile or censorious feelings so much as they treat the 'bad' as nonexistent.


*i know prostitute does not equal promiscous, but both sorts have many partners.

I've known prostitutes and strippers and many other types of sex workers. I've had coffee, dinners, -- and sex with some of them. My husband and I asked a stripper to marry us and we are godparents to her children. (Among the reasons why she decided against it was that she felt we didn't discipline our children as strictly as she did hers-- and she was right about that.)

I have never been a prostitute; I've had sex with over one hundred fifty men in my life, and somewhere around twenty-five/thirty women. (Men are easier to get in bed.)
( I have done some Domming for pay, but (I was surprised to discover) it included no sex at all.)

My advice to women who fuck around; If you total your partners in the tens, women will call you a slut. If you tell them you've had a hundred or more, you've put yourself in some other class entirely...

Here's a funny story from my *cough* early days; Yes, guys did date me because they knew I liked sex. One such young man was probably the most conservative youth I'd ever known. He wanted to be jealous and possessive. I told him to forget about that. One day he dropped by-- and so did two other boys whom I was seeing, I mean fucking-- "They both told me you were sleeping with them," he said.

I said; "yeah, so?" and he looked very confused. If he didn't like it, I didn't need him around-- that was pretty obvious. He stuck around for a bit longer, but he never quite got it...

 

[Verdad]

you see, according to the double standard i can go to the sleaziest bar or stripclub or "strip" [a la Hugh Grant] and come out unsullied, whereas many women "wouldn't be caught dead..." as the saying goes.

Some years ago in Prague, a group of us stumbled upon a peep show parlor in a suitably filthy part of town. It tickled our fancy at once, and we wanted to get in. Only, the bouncer wouldn't hear of letting some of us inside. Guess whom?

I guess there was some logic to his thinking. We could have been ho's and johns about to use their facilities for our business. Although I very much doubt we looked that way.

We tried to explain we were a tourist group. He wouldn't hear of it. No women, period.

 

[bluebell]

*Historically* speaking and in most cultures where there is a "slut" factor, it's all been about men keeping women as prizes, as evidence of their masculinity and power...

...However, just as the word "slut" was created to take away the power of a sexually active woman to immaculate men (to make them feel "not special"), so the word, once in the system, is freely used by women who need to feel superior...

So it would seem.
The manifestations of this rift regarding the "promiscuity" of men and women seem to be unique for each. In women it emerges as spiteful bitterness, and in men it emerges as misogyny (which, as we know, takes varying forms in itself).
People of either gender may not even know they've been affected by it, it just tumbles out regardless.

 

[FallingToFly]

I'm checking in on this one again, with some of the reasons I've heard men give for fucking around on their wives and condemning a woman who thinks that sauce for the gander should be for the goose as well:

"Sex with you isn't as good anymore since you had kids." (From a man who desperately wanted children)

"It's like that new car smell- sometimes a man just needs something fresh and clean and new." (This one I would take as a personal insult, what about you?)

"Well, I think less of you for wanting other men." (From a man with multiple affairs on his record)

"That's my home- I don't want another man in my home." (Referring to a vagina. So the vagina is his home- but his penis is a public park?)

"It's natural law that men have harems. Women are supposed to be in charge of the home and children, males are meant to have many females." (I'm not even going to touch this. It pissed me off.)

"Women fall in two categories. Wives and whores, and a woman who wants more than her husband is a whore." (What does that make men who want more than their wife?)


---------

Granted, a lot of my opinion right now is based on sour grapes. BUT- if the guys want to play hardball, there's a simple solution- cut them off. If a man wants to play the field, that's all well and good- he can be cut off and left to those who enjoy that risk. I prefer having a partner who wants me than a partner who will take me because I happen to be their when their dick is hard or pussy is wet. I've gotten lucky- I cut off a whore from my body and bed, and in return got two lovely, devoted people who only want me, although we're all more than willing to share with each other.

 

[Pure]

note to verdad

Some years ago in Prague, a group of us stumbled upon a peep show parlor in a suitably filthy part of town. It tickled our fancy at once, and we wanted to get in. Only, the bouncer wouldn't hear of letting some of us inside. Guess whom?

I guess there was some logic to his thinking. We could have been ho's and johns about to use their facilities for our business. Although I very much doubt we looked that way.

We tried to explain we were a tourist group. He wouldn't hear of it. No women, period.

good point. some establishments have been set up as 'male only.' around here, though, women-- i.e,. girlfriends-- are welcome, but hos on their own would not be, if they were obviously doing business.

still, my general point about 'slumming,' i think generally applies; it's like water off a duck's back for the man, and like an ink stain on the woman.

for example, if a man says, "in my twenties, i visited 500 whores," people are impressed. if a woman says, "in my twenties i was a whore and had 1000 clients", she'd tend to be askance at, excepts in the really artsy or bohemian circles.

 

[Pure]

stella,

that's a fine posting. you're almost unique around here (AH), i think

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've gotten lucky- I cut off a whore from my body and bed, and in return got two lovely, devoted people who only want me, although we're all more than willing to share with each other.

that's a fine posting. you're almost unique around here (AH), i think

I love being able to render you speechless once in a while!

Reading your posts on these subjects, Pure, is always enlightening for me-- reminds me that even our educated academic types consider "artsy, Bohemian types" to be a different breed. I don't like it, but it's better to be reminded...

 

[FallingToFly]

 

[christabelll]

Yipes -
that does leave me somehwere in no womans land LOLOLOLOL

more than 20 less than 100 of both persuasions LOLOL

I am happily hetero - but I do enjoy the 'odd" female when the right situations arises...LOL.... usually involving copious amounts of alchohol...

I have tamed down considerably with the advent of children - but - now that my hormones are stable again - one pill a day is all it takes - lol - I find I am more interested and "ready" than I ever was before...

And according to old school rules - no longer able to bear children - I can do whatever the damn hell I want...
YAY!

 

[CeriseNoire]

I'm checking in on this one again, with some of the reasons I've heard men give for fucking around on their wives and condemning a woman who thinks that sauce for the gander should be for the goose as well:

"Sex with you isn't as good anymore since you had kids." (From a man who desperately wanted children)

"It's like that new car smell- sometimes a man just needs something fresh and clean and new." (This one I would take as a personal insult, what about you?)

"Well, I think less of you for wanting other men." (From a man with multiple affairs on his record)

"That's my home- I don't want another man in my home." (Referring to a vagina. So the vagina is his home- but his penis is a public park?)

"It's natural law that men have harems. Women are supposed to be in charge of the home and children, males are meant to have many females." (I'm not even going to touch this. It pissed me off.)

"Women fall in two categories. Wives and whores, and a woman who wants more than her husband is a whore." (What does that make men who want more than their wife?)

Those weren't reasons that were given to you, they were excuses. Lame ones at that.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I've known prostitutes and strippers and many other types of sex workers. I've had coffee, dinners, -- and sex with some of them. My husband and I asked a stripper to marry us and we are godparents to her children. (Among the reasons why she decided against it was that she felt we didn't discipline our children as strictly as she did hers-- and she was right about that.)

I have never been a prostitute; I've had sex with over one hundred fifty men in my life, and somewhere around twenty-five/thirty women. (Men are easier to get in bed.)
( I have done some Domming for pay, but (I was surprised to discover) it included no sex at all.)

My advice to women who fuck around; If you total your partners in the tens, women will call you a slut. If you tell them you've had a hundred or more, you've put yourself in some other class entirely...

Here's a funny story from my *cough* early days; Yes, guys did date me because they knew I liked sex. One such young man was probably the most conservative youth I'd ever known. He wanted to be jealous and possessive. I told him to forget about that. One day he dropped by-- and so did two other boys whom I was seeing, I mean fucking-- "They both told me you were sleeping with them," he said.

I said; "yeah, so?" and he looked very confused. If he didn't like it, I didn't need him around-- that was pretty obvious. He stuck around for a bit longer, but he never quite got it...

Stella darling, you are a pirate after my own heart.
If you were anywhere nearby I'd be after a few bits of you as well.

In my sophomore year of high school, the first two guys I dated (and had sex with) at one point demanded that I choose between them. I told them I saw no earthly reason why I should (this is me at 14) since we were obviously too young to consider marriage and scheduling really wasn't an issue. Besides, I was powerfully in love with them both. It simply didn't make sense to me. I was given an opportunity to prove that I had no double standard, since both of them tried making me jealous by dating other girls and I was pleased with the fact and wanted to hear all about it. They were at their wits' end with me.

And the drama began, and continued, throughout the rest of high school.

Now i teach polyamory workshops and have two phenomenal mates. So there ya go.

and as to lovers, well, I just don't know. My 20's were a busy time and I sorta lost count. But there were, well, several.

bijou

 

[CeriseNoire]

I've known prostitutes and strippers and many other types of sex workers. I've had coffee, dinners, -- and sex with some of them. My husband and I asked a stripper to marry us and we are godparents to her children. (Among the reasons why she decided against it was that she felt we didn't discipline our children as strictly as she did hers-- and she was right about that.)

I have never been a prostitute; I've had sex with over one hundred fifty men in my life, and somewhere around twenty-five/thirty women. (Men are easier to get in bed.)
( I have done some Domming for pay, but (I was surprised to discover) it included no sex at all.)

My advice to women who fuck around; If you total your partners in the tens, women will call you a slut. If you tell them you've had a hundred or more, you've put yourself in some other class entirely...

Here's a funny story from my *cough* early days; Yes, guys did date me because they knew I liked sex. One such young man was probably the most conservative youth I'd ever known. He wanted to be jealous and possessive. I told him to forget about that. One day he dropped by-- and so did two other boys whom I was seeing, I mean fucking-- "They both told me you were sleeping with them," he said.

I said; "yeah, so?" and he looked very confused. If he didn't like it, I didn't need him around-- that was pretty obvious. He stuck around for a bit longer, but he never quite got it...

I found this quite interesting--about perspective. Depending on the people one surrounds oneself with, it's easy to forget what may seem matter of fact is shocking to others. Having grown up in a European city, the idea of sex as a pleasurable pursuit (rather than a shameful one) seemed quite ordinary, even with my nice Catholic upbringing. In the States (and once I became sexually active), the particular group of friends I spent time with was fairly promiscuous. I then went on to a rather liberal school, with a diverse population, so that even those who weren't having sex weren't so shocked at those who had.

Anyway, I know live in a place where one of my colleagues and I often joke that we're the only two non-virgins working on our floor. It always catches me off-guard when I hear gossip about so and so being such a slut because she actually enjoys sex or actually has someone to compare her current lover to. Never hear a peep about the guys who come in most Mondays bragging about their latest conquest. Meanwhile, I've mentioned "my number" in mixed company during my last visit home without people batting an eye.

Now as for myself, I've found out I'm apparently above the US average. Guess that makes me slutty So of course I've no taken up with someone who had no experience before me.

<-- apparently likes to keep things complicated.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I see women blaming other women quite clearly in fandoms.

In the Harry potter crowd, Ginny Weasley has a grand total of three boyfriends-- according to some of that crowd, she's a slut.

In the Pirates of the Caribbean bunch, Elizabeth Swann comes in for a lot of hatred for "lecturing the rest of them about morality while shamelessly flirting with Jack"
she gets called a slut... this despite the fact that she goes to her marriage a virgin.

oh,


well.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Stella, that reminds me of something trenchant I read on the topic of John Stuart Mill - who wife came under a good deal of fire during and after her life. The author suggested that part of the problem is that our feelings for any celebrity (real or fictional) partake at least a little of desire, and that we are on the whole a jealous lot. It made a surprising amount of sense to me.

 

[JamesSD]

The one that allows men to fuck around as much as they want, but brands women who do it "whores". Who started it: men or women? Who maintains it? Is it dying out or going strong?

Interesting, complex question.

Way too many guys have the whole "Madonna/Whore" complex, who want to fuck "sluts", but only serious date "good girls". Retardedly, these guys often cheat on their "good girl" girlfriends with "sluts". Also, it does make men feel a lot more special to hook up with a woman who is selective in her lovers rather than one who gets around more.

Still, women can be some of the most misogynistic people on the planet. There seems to be a certain "I don't want anyone to have more fun than I'm comfortable having" attitude.

I think it's a chicken-egg sort of thing that is maintaining, but varies among social circles and groups. I definitely think the amount of sex that makes a woman a "slut" is a lot higher than it used to be.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, that reminds me of something trenchant I read on the topic of John Stuart Mill - who wife came under a good deal of fire during and after her life. The author suggested that part of the problem is that our feelings for any celebrity (real or fictional) partake at least a little of desire, and that we are on the whole a jealous lot. It made a surprising amount of sense to me.

As the fan conversation has progressed, it develops that this girl doesn't like anyone in POTC, except James Norrington. She hated the second so much that she's refused to see the third-- thereby basing her judgements on an unfinished arc.
In other words, she isn't really a fan at all. *shrug*

 

[flavortang]

As the fan conversation has progressed, it develops that this girl doesn't like anyone in POTC, except James Norrington. She hated the second so much that she's refused to see the third-- thereby basing her judgements on an unfinished arc.
In other words, she isn't really a fan at all. *shrug*

I loved all the POTC movies, especially the third. The hero of the movies was Elizabeth.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I loved all the POTC movies, especially the third. The hero of the movies was Elizabeth.

That's how the writers intended it to be, certainly.



What's so telling is that the girl didn't mention how much she disliked everybody else. She only went off about Elizabeth.

Some of the resulting discussion was interesting as well, as women disclosed their tolerance levels-- higher or lower-- and what they considered to be reasonable or not.

One woman said she has a fuck buddy in two different towns, but she wouldn't approve of "extreme promiscuity."
I've asked her if she has a ballpark on would be acceptable to her and what would be extreme, waiting for an answer right now...

 

[lisa123414]

Sorry to take the focus off POTC, Stella and Tang!

Wow, this is an incredible thread! I recently read a book “O: The Intimate History of the Orgasm,” by Margolis, that delved into many of the above subjects, from the Goddess-based societies to the present day free-for-all. It also give a fair explanation of the double standard, as it has come and gone over the centuries.

Society today is certainly what you make of it. I agree that the evolution of “geek” women, who can support themselves and their children has made name-calling rather obsolete. I recall the word “slut” coming from the popular crowd in high school, but not much where else or since. And it does tend to come from both men and women, depending on the situation.

I don’t think that society today forgives either man or woman, when unfaithful to a vow. And as for having multiple sex partners, the kids today have taken Clinton’s definition of sex and run with it. Blow jobs don’t count, mutual masturbation does not count, cyber sex does not count. With that and birth control, they have certainly eliminated much of the stigma, or at least their chances of being caught.

Society does judge, so in this huge world, one must carefully chose one’s society.

 

[BlackShanglan]

As the fan conversation has progressed, it develops that this girl doesn't like anyone in POTC, except James Norrington. She hated the second so much that she's refused to see the third-- thereby basing her judgements on an unfinished arc.
In other words, she isn't really a fan at all. *shrug*

I found Norrington's development interesting. However, on the whole I found the second disappointing. I'm not so much actively refusing to see the third as just without any real desire to do so - shame upon me.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

We tried to explain we were a tourist group. He wouldn't hear of it. No women, period.

I like that.

"You a woman?"

"I'm not sure. I'm a tourist."

"Oh. Then I guess it's okay."

 

[Guest]

I like that.

"You a woman?"

"I'm not sure. I'm a tourist."

"Oh. Then I guess it's okay."

How about - "I'm not a woman. I'm a porn writer."