The great apes--- rights of life and liberty.

[Pure]

Voluptuary: Could it possibly be that today's hunters are well aware of such things as CITES, good game management (which works a lot better than just letting "environmental balance" go it's own way), conservation based on what works rather than what feels good?

---
i don't think most hunters hunt to help 'manage' game, escept a few pros. they hunt for sport.

as to game managment, there are lots of screw ups due to human misjudgment. but i suppose these have to be remedies, in some cases with further intervention.

ecological balance is a tricky concept, but it partly has to do with sustainability. but it's important to realize it's a fluctuating thing:
studies, for instance, of wolves and rabbits --predators and prey-- find a fluctuation: when wolves reach a certain level the negative feedback loop kicks in.

none of this has much directly to do with the thread topic, though i suppose the general issue of "Lord of the Universe" thinking in humans, is involved: I do what i fucking well please to my surroundings, as long as there's no human neighbor or my human neighbor is not immediately and directly harmed. Example: i buy a tract of land with a small forest; i cut down the forest and make a commercial golf course.

not to say the maxim endorsed by some, around here--JBJ?---if it's juicy and not human, it's fine to kill it and eat it [with a few qualifications]. This is applied to great apes, by some cultures.

not to say the maxim,
if it cant talk about its pain and can only yawp or squirm, humans have every right to assume no pain [or ignore it] and do whatever they please for any commercial, medical, entertainment purpose.

This was the state of US law, up to the late 19th century, iirc.

 

[LordMithras]

When apes start holding intelligent conversations in an audible language that can be translated as discernible words, then we can talk of primate rights. Until then....

 

[Pure]

to the lord--

Tell that to a local group of deaf mute persons.

 

[Liar]

Tell that to a local group of deaf mute persons.

Did you just compare deaf mute persons with apes?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

PURE

I eat monkeys, why not great apes?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

When apes start holding intelligent conversations in an audible language that can be translated as discernible words, then we can talk of primate rights. Until then....

Or genuinely "speaking" ASL. Using a few ASL signs is not the same as speaking that fully-dimensioned human language, and no primatology scholar pretends that it is.

 

[R. Richard]

When apes start holding intelligent conversations in an audible language that can be translated as discernible words, then we can talk of primate rights. Until then....

Unfortunately, apes other than humans lack vocal cords and thus can't speak intelligently. Then again, politicians have vocal cords and can't speak intelligently.

 

[bwallard]

Oh no, what are you thinking? It's bad enough letting children into restaurants.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Unfortunately, apes other than humans lack vocal cords and thus can't speak intelligently. Then again, politicians have vocal cords and speak intelligently.

Did you leave out a 'can't' somewhere? Or was it a 'don't'?

 

[R. Richard]

Did you leave out a 'can't' somewhere? Or was it a 'don't'?

Sorry, edit to add 'can't.' 'Don't would imply that they're able to do so.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Sorry, edit to add 'can't.' 'Don't would imply that they're able to do so.

I rather thought so.

 

[shereads]

When did this turn into a discussion of "equal rights?" The thread-starter asked whether great apes are entitled to life and liberty. Not the vote, not a seat on the bus. Just life and liberty.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

When did this turn into a discussion of "equal rights?" The thread-starter asked whether great apes are entitled to life and liberty. Not the vote, not a seat on the bus. Just life and liberty.

Not even equal facilities at country clubs?

 

[shereads]

Not even equal facilities at country clubs?

Well that goes without saying, provided the apes don't mind wearing those silly golf pants.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The thread starter asked whether apes should be protected by extending to them the same rights that are extended to human beings.

The answer is quite simply and clearly "no". The reason is: Apes are not human beings. The legal argument is bogus and will lead to much trouble. There are better ways of accomplishing this.

I am all for protecting apes, but the fact is, you cannot declare an ape human by fiat. Declare him a "Specially Protected Species" or "Our beloved Apey" or "Mr & Mrs. Gorilla-Poo" and extend him all the rights, protections, and privileges you want, but you can't come in and brand him "human" because he's not.

He's not biologically simply because if a human mates with an ape they can produce no viable offspring.

Case closed.

Our duty on this earth regarding the species we share it with is not to anthropomorphize them and think they're all humans who haven't had the good fortune to learn to talk (as we treat the rest of the world as if they're Americans who haven't had the good fortune to realize it yet), but to preserve their environments in as pristine and untouched a state as we can so they can work out their own destinies without mankind interfering according to what we think they "want".

 

[Pure]

Note from the thread-starter dude:

doc said,

docThe thread starter asked whether apes should be protected by extending to them the same rights that are extended to human beings.

The answer is quite simply and clearly "no". The reason is: Apes are not human beings. The legal argument is bogus and will lead to much trouble. There are better ways of accomplishing this.

I am all for protecting apes, but the fact is, you cannot declare an ape human by fiat
-------

Pure, now, 7-08: Hi doc,

I think it's clear my original posting distinguished apes from humans, and did not declare them humans by fiat. See below. Nor did it propose extending the "same rights" as humans, rather two were mentioned. In fact the Declaration, see below, specifies three, the additional one, which i mentioned by implication, is freedom from torture.

Further the new story i excerpted AND several other careful sources, see below, referrred to "non human" brothers. The CSM, specifies "some human rights." See below.

The Great Apes Declaration fairly explicitly distinguishes humans and apes, and should be the last resort citation. Sorry i didn't post it earlier.

I urge everyone to visit the site and sign the petition.
=====


Pure, original: //Do great apes, the highest of the primates, aside from man, have a right NOT to be arbitrarily deprived of life and liberty? (freedom to wander about)?

I had intended a poll, but i messed up, so just state, yes, yes with quaifications, maybe, no, etc. and give your reasons.



If this is accepted, confining them in most zoos would be out, but not necessarily 'wild life refuges,' large tracts of land, for their own protection.

What is the argument? It's very simple: Leaving aside the language issue, these apes--gorillas, chimps, bononbos, for example-- are functioning like two year olds, at least. In terms of morality, then, they would seem to be entitled to the same rights: You can't for example, take your two year old, and shoot her. Nor can you perform experimental surgery on her, or drop detergents into her eyes, to test the irritation potential. //[end pure original]
===



http://features.csmonitor.com/environment/2008/06/27/spain-to-grant-some-human-rights-to-apes/

Spain to grant some human rights to apes
Eoin O'Carroll | 06.27.0

Spain’s parliament approved a measure Wednesday to extend some human rights to gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, and orangutans, becoming the first country to explicitly acknowledge the legal rights of nonhumans.

The parliament’s environmental committee approved a resolution that commits the country to the Declaration on Great Apes, which states that nonhuman apes are entitled to the rights of life, liberty, and protection from torture.
===


Declaration is at

http://www.greatapeproject.org/declaration.php

We demand the extension of the community of equals to include all great apes: human beings, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and orang-utans.

 

[Pure]

to rr: re vocal chords.

rr Unfortunately, apes other than humans lack vocal cords


note to rr, re vocal chords.

Apes have them. Excellent article at this site. Mentions the keyboard with its lexigrams, used to communicate.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3222942

At the Great Ape Trust, researchers said the apes would likely never be able to vocalize words like humans; they are limited by the range of their vocal chords among other things.

==

there are dozens of sources for this fact, on the 'net.
===

chats with bonobos using keyboard at:

interview with bonobo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwm4FEB9LC8
[BBC news]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis

 

[dr_mabeuse]

My apologies. i completely misread the original post.

--Zoot

doc said,

docThe thread starter asked whether apes should be protected by extending to them the same rights that are extended to human beings.

The answer is quite simply and clearly "no". The reason is: Apes are not human beings. The legal argument is bogus and will lead to much trouble. There are better ways of accomplishing this.

I am all for protecting apes, but the fact is, you cannot declare an ape human by fiat
-------

Pure, now, 7-08: Hi doc,

I think it's clear my original posting distinguished apes from humans, and did not declare them humans by fiat. See below. Nor did it propose extending the "same rights" as humans, rather two were mentioned. In fact the Declaration, see below, specifies three, the additional one, which i mentioned by implication, is freedom from torture.

Further the new story i excerpted AND several other careful sources, see below, referrred to "non human" brothers. The CSM, specifies "some human rights." See below.

The Great Apes Declaration fairly explicitly distinguishes humans and apes, and should be the last resort citation. Sorry i didn't post it earlier.

I urge everyone to visit the site and sign the petition.
=====


Pure, original: //Do great apes, the highest of the primates, aside from man, have a right NOT to be arbitrarily deprived of life and liberty? (freedom to wander about)?

I had intended a poll, but i messed up, so just state, yes, yes with quaifications, maybe, no, etc. and give your reasons.



If this is accepted, confining them in most zoos would be out, but not necessarily 'wild life refuges,' large tracts of land, for their own protection.

What is the argument? It's very simple: Leaving aside the language issue, these apes--gorillas, chimps, bononbos, for example-- are functioning like two year olds, at least. In terms of morality, then, they would seem to be entitled to the same rights: You can't for example, take your two year old, and shoot her. Nor can you perform experimental surgery on her, or drop detergents into her eyes, to test the irritation potential. //[end pure original]
===



http://features.csmonitor.com/environment/2008/06/27/spain-to-grant-some-human-rights-to-apes/

Spain to grant some human rights to apes
Eoin O'Carroll | 06.27.0

Spain’s parliament approved a measure Wednesday to extend some human rights to gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, and orangutans, becoming the first country to explicitly acknowledge the legal rights of nonhumans.

The parliament’s environmental committee approved a resolution that commits the country to the Declaration on Great Apes, which states that nonhuman apes are entitled to the rights of life, liberty, and protection from torture.
===


Declaration is at

http://www.greatapeproject.org/declaration.php

We demand the extension of the community of equals to include all great apes: human beings, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and orang-utans.

 

[LordMithras]

Tell that to a local group of deaf mute persons.

Deaf-mutes have souls and an ability to understand human speech, whether through sign language or lip-reading. Can't say that of apes.

Hate to say it, but I am not ready to give lesser primates the same rights as humans.

Granted, in some ways we humans are dumber because we have souls, but on balance, it's an advantage.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

News Item:

GIBRALTAR MONKEYS OUTRAGED; DEMAND APOLOGY FROM SPAIN

Claim ape statute racist and based on rank nationalism;
Expert says measure may be new round in Spain vs. Britain Gibraltar conflict.

~~~~~

Oops - Wrong thread.

 

[shereads]

Please don't call them "apes." They are DNA-Challenged Americans suffering from Geographic Displacement.

 

[Guest]

Please don't call them "apes." They are DNA-Challenged Americans suffering from Geographic Displacement.

I thought those were -

(Can't say it! The perfect set up for political humor and I just - can't - go - through with it! Aahhh!)


I'm trying to be good.

This may not last.

 

[shereads]

Our duty on this earth regarding the species we share it with is not to anthropomorphize them and think they're all humans who haven't had the good fortune to learn to talk (as we treat the rest of the world as if they're Americans who haven't had the good fortune to realize it yet), but to preserve their environments in as pristine and untouched a state as we can so they can work out their own destinies without mankind interfering according to what we think they "want".

What Zoot said.

Given their liberty, gorillas don't choose to hang out with us, participate in our lives, wear our little flag lapel-pins. They want and deserve to be left alone. Since we seem incapable of allowing any creature that right, I think we owe them whatever protection we can offer to mitigate the loss of habitat and privacy.

Being human shouldn't be the only criterion by which a sentient creature accrues the right to some measure of compassion and respect. What's to debate?

Edited to add: Thanks, Pure, for posting the link to the Declaration. Consider it signed and passed along. I have to go now - I have an appointment to pick some fleas and bits of dead skin off of my realtor's head.

 

[shereads]

From the website of The Great Apes Project {my boldface}

The Great Ape Project: An Idea, A Book, An Organization

The idea is founded upon undeniable scientific proof that non-human great apes share more than genetically similar DNA with their human counterparts. They enjoy a rich emotional and cultural existence in which they experience emotions such as fear, anxiety and happiness. They share the intellectual capacity to create and use tools, learn and teach other languages. They remember their past and plan for their future.

It is in recognition of these and other morally significant qualities that the Great Ape Project was founded. The Great Ape Project seeks to end the unconscionable treatment of our nearest living relatives by obtaining for non-human great apes the fundamental moral and legal protections of the right to life, the freedom from arbitrary deprivation of liberty, and protection from torture.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I'm trying to be good.

This may not last.

So long as you're over it by March.