The great Social Security Scam, circa 1935

[amicus]

Hello again Pure...

Perhaps I appear to be a mass of contradictions to you or perhaps you are just pulling my chain...

In either case...'I shall endeavor to perservere'; in a free society where Government exists with the 'consent' of the people, they 'consent' to be taxed within the limits of existing legislation.

Ayn Rand and her Objectivist Philosophy, stipulated that the function of government should be limited to protecting the innate rights of the people to life, liberty and property. To this end she advocated a military, to defend the sovreignty of the nation; a police force to protect the rights of the people from force and fraud committed against them and a court system to resolve differences between people in a formal fashion.

I accept those tenets as realistic for outlining the 'proper' function of a governing body of a free people. Thus, I would by logic, be required to acquiesce to 'taxation' to pay for these services.

I would prefer, if it would be possible, to operate in a system of 'user fees' rather than blanket taxation.

It seems ludicrous to many in modern times, that one would prefer to 'pay' for fire service or police protection, but I think it would keep us all closer to the concept of providing for ourselves and each other on an individual basis rather than blanket taxation that supports institutions that seem to grow beyond all means of control.

Most come back with horror stories of medical care, that only the wealthy would get treatment, but as I have stated before, 'the free exchange of goods and services between people will work to the greatest advantage for all.'

I do not, 'believe' in a free market system, I do advocate such because I under the mechanics of how it works and it is a logical system of mutual cooperation for mutual benefit without the use of police powers to confiscate wealth from some and distribute it to others.

I would like to think I have addressed your question, but I imagine you will find something to disagree with.

May your day go well...

amicus

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

An honest question

Your "user fees". How would they work exactly? Would there be a blanket rate and each person designates how much money goes where? Would there be something similar to Terry Pratchett's guilds where people pay the guild (read department in American translation) every time they use a service or want the option of using the service in the future? Or would it be up to the good ol' spirit of man to designate how much tax he wants to pay and whereto? Furthermore in any of these systems, how do you deal with areas that get underfunded (like say the US 911 budget ends up as a $1.50 because people are bad at foresight)?

 

[amicus]

We already pay user fees...

Although taxes support the courts and pay the salaries of the judges and secretaries, if you want a marriage license, you will pay extra for it. Same with a building license or permit, your taxes pay for the institution, yet you are charged again for the services.

The thing about government is that it becomes a 'monopoly' in terms of providing service thus what they charge must be dictated by law and not the market place as there is no competition.

Further, since the monopoly does not have to 'show a profit' does not have to function efficiently in order to survive, the the service become poor and the public stands in line at the post office for long periods of time because they enjoy no 'profit' at an increase in the quality of service given.

Speaking of the post office...the free market and the internet have basically made that institution obsolete. People pay bills electronically and not by mail, Fedex and others have usurped much of the business and post office procedures remain almost in the dark ages compared to the computer wise business in the private sector.

Perhaps the study of free market, classical economics will come back into fashion as few seem to be aware of how a free society functions...

amicus

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Wait, so how would we pay for services like defense of the homeland, military purchases, housing for the homeless, and all of those services that citizens don't directly need in their daily lives. Would the government send us a bill? Could we refuse to help pay if we disagree with the purchase? How would it differ from taxation? Furthermore, how would police and fire departments work? Would entire poor suburbs burn down because their denizens wouldn't be able to afford the fire charge? How would fire department be able to afford the men, training, equipment, and maintenance during years where nothing burns down so that when something like the California fires comes up not everything goes up in smoke? Also how much would the fire department have to charge in order to afford things on a per fire basis? And furthermore what would stop the firefighters from turning to arson in order to save their poor little firehouse from bankruptcy? How would police and courts work? Would justice literally go to who can afford it the most? How would cops be renumerated for probono work? How would cops work at all?

User fees seem a bit unfeasible from this perspective. Taxes seem to be a neccessary and unfortunate evil. I admit it would be really fucking cool if people could choose where their money went, could choose which follies to fund. The problem would be though that great follies would occur. Departments would go wickedly underfunded or unfunded and no department would know what their budget would be any year. It would be...it would be hilarious. I can just see the advertisements for the EPA or for the Defense Department begging for a piece of Joe Citizen's dollar from Joe himself.

An intriguing form of populist anarchy if I don't say so myself and a very interesting approach to a true democracy. A bureaucratic democracy, hmmm... tempting but likely prone to huge catastrophes.

Anyway, good luck with your dream utopia. Karl Marx had the same glorious dream.

 

[gauchecritic]

I have seen no other system in all the history of man that has accomplished nearly what we have.

amicus

I just couldn't let this go. What exactly have you accomplished? Assuming you mean the U.S, then apart from the technology, what exactly is it that you have accomplished in terms of greatness, or good for the people or even leisure that a hundred other empires haven't?

I would like you to cite one single thing that Mr Average U.S.A has now that Mr zero BC roman didn't have, or Mr Victorian England or even Mr Average Viking.

And when you list that/those thing(s) please explain how they or it would have come about without abysmal living conditions, slavery, extortion, graft, larceny, murder or any number of ways and means of exploitation which led to any other Empire's greatest days.

I know you wanna and you know you can't.

Being simplistic just doesn't cut it. Everybody's Utopia works in Utopia.

Gauche

 

[amicus]

ahhh...gauche one...good to see you again...

you said:

"And when you list that/those thing(s) please explain how they or it would have come about without abysmal living conditions, slavery, extortion, graft, larceny, murder or any number of ways and means of exploitation which led to any other Empire's greatest days.

I know you wanna and you know you can't."


Well, my friend, the things "I wanna...but can't" are more a matter of age and satiation than they are of capacity.

I did not create mankind, the 'big fella up there' didn't consult me in the design of we critters, had he, I would have suggested that he include a mind in addition to a vagina in the female half of this mess.

According to de ones who dug up 'dem bones, dem bones' we were scurrying about in the mud for a million years while the dinosaurs ruled the earth.

(authors mechanistic device on stage as time passes)

When we finally did stand upright and found ourselves with neither tooth nor claw nor heavy coat to compete, father nature gave us deviousness, a bigger brain and a large penis so that we might at least have a chance on a fairly level playing surface and fruitfully multiply.

And that is the tooth and nail of it... we survived because we are smarter, meaner, more aggressive and basically just as nasty as all git out.

From tribes to the great wall to the pyramids to Hadrian's wall and many stops along the way, we fought and conquered and lost and died and bled and raped and pillaged our way until that grey ghost of galilee squelched us for a thousand dark years.

Somewhere along about the 12 century, some audacious amicus cut one of us open and looked inside. amazing!

Then some idiot invented the printing press and lo and behold not only the priests could read of the word of god...but protesting intellectuals too, blinked their unaided eyes and farted in iambic pentameter.

Civilization grew up around the seaports of mediterranean europe and lo and behold some exploratory amicus yelled eureka! Nassau!

...and the western world began with a whimper not a bang.

Kings and cabbages fell by the wayside and amicus emerged victorious, cod piece and all.

World history 102 will continue with sufficient encouragement from the sidelines....

amicus the outrageous....

(edited to add, "If you don't get a chuckle out of that, then you truly are a trochaic troll."

 

[gauchecritic]

Look, if you don't know the answer just say so.

Consistency is all I ask. (either didi or gogo from Waiting...)

Gauche

I am a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable?