The Impending Riots

[SEVERUSMAX]

No problemo, Rob. We had a Civil War and bounced back from that.
Moderates, as per usual, will win the day.

How do you think we got that Civil War....polarization. Happened once, it could happen again. For some reason, secession, polarization, and civil war have been on my mind a lot lately. As has a revolution of sorts, but not the one that the neo-cons or the Left would want. Nor what JBJ would want. I mean a revolution by state governments tired of Federal arrogance. That, or a small faction so fed up with the petty tyrants in DC that it decides to do something about them. Either way, it could get messy. And with the population split 50/50, the masses won't likely thwart it.

 

[desertslave]

Also, there is little to blame the Democrats for.

Whatever happened to all those big changes Nancy Pelosi was promising, anyway????

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Whatever happened to all those big changes Nancy Pelosi was promising, anyway????

Well, she is a politician, and a Democratic one to boot. The last Dem who truly kept his word was James K. Polk, and he didn't run for re-election.

 

[rengadeirishman]

Also, there is little to blame the Democrats for.

I blame the democrats for not being able to come up with someone to beat bush, it really didn't seem like too much to ask for.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SEVERUSMAX

There wont be any change until individuals have had enough of the bullshit and decide to go it alone. Like in the sense of quitting your job and starting your own business kind of fed up.

 

[rgraham666]

No problemo, Rob. We had a Civil War and bounced back from that.
Moderates, as per usual, will win the day.

Except the next Civil War will be fought with fully automatic weapons, modern artillery, cluster munitions, FAEs, napalm. And WMD.

Actually I've been working on a history of North America after the Second American Civil war. Life here is somewhere between the Congo and Mad Max. Great for stories. Not fun for real.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I wasn't at the '68 Democratic convention. I left Chicago a few days before it started because I knew there was going to be trouble. I'd been living in an ex movie theater with some artists and members of the Chicago Outlaws motorcycle gang and they had some goofy "plans", but a lot of my friends were involved in the demonstrations, and yeah, it was a police riot.

The mood of the crowd was ugly. The mood of the country was ugly and bordering on civil war in the cities. There'd been demonstrations in Chicago earlier that summer that showed what would happen: cops funneling crowds of thousands down to a single lane and beating people who strayed out of the tape just for the sake of beating them. Mayor Daley was sending a message: he wasn't going to allow any sort of demonstrations in his city.

The trouble started when the crowd tried to march on the Conrad Hilton, the hotel where the delegates were staying. They were met by tear gas and a wall of club-swinging cops on Michigan Avenue who beat everyone indiscriminately, and all hell broke loose. Would there have been trouble if the cops hadn't been so aggressive? Probably. But not like what happened.

As I recall, this country was founded by demonstrators, and the right to demonstrate is one of the first rights guaranteed by the constitution. What is a demonstration but a rage of conscience against complacency? The number of demonstrators in Denver is estimated to be about a thousand, hardly enough to create another Chicago. Maybe we should arrest them all before they can start, like they do in China, That would help built a more republican America.

 

[rgraham666]

Well, the police are well prepared this time.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

I was at Fort Lewis, Washington on my way to Vietnam when the 1968 Chicago riot broke out.

Violent demonstrators should be shot.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

DOC

I was at Fort Lewis, Washington on my way to Vietnam when the 1968 Chicago riot broke out.

Violent demonstrators should be shot.

You wanted to go? You should have done something about it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

I volunteered to go to Vietnam. I got my fill of it and declined to extend. But it was a life-altering experience; I learned a lot.

 

[Pure]

note to box?

I see some of the worst scum in the country has arrived in Denver, prepared to disrupt the Dem. convention

evidence? source?

 

[Belegon]

The treatment of demonstrators is hardly a new issue... The famous Boston Massacre, for example...

It's important that those who wish to demonstrate be allowed to do so... and it is important to keep those exercising their civil rights from interfering with other peoples civil rights.

Like all balancing acts, there will be some swaying on both ends before it steadies... but I certainly don't expect anything like what happened in Chicago, despite the confluence of dates, etc...

 

[The_Trouvere]

DOC

I volunteered to go to Vietnam. I got my fill of it and declined to extend. But it was a life-altering experience; I learned a lot.

Did you go with the Army, or the Marines? Did the Vietnamese appreciate your presence? Did you witness or hear about atrocities against them?

 

[TE999]

The treatment of demonstrators is hardly a new issue... The famous Boston Massacre, for example...

It's important that those who wish to demonstrate be allowed to do so... and it is important to keep those exercising their civil rights from interfering with other peoples civil rights.

Like all balancing acts, there will be some swaying on both ends before it steadies... but I certainly don't expect anything like what happened in Chicago, despite the confluence of dates, etc...

From what I've seen, the ranks of the potential troublemakers are much thinner than first expected. Of course they could be holding off until the coronation...um...nomination to start raising hell.

I don't think America is in any mood for that nonsense either.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I see some of the worst scum in the country has arrived in Denver, prepared to disrupt the Dem. convention

evidence? source?

Ward Churchill, to name one. I saw him filmed on the streets of Denver, inciting those who support him.

I will name others in due time.

I agree that there aren't all that many yet. Perhaps there won't be as many as expected, but it is early yet.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I wasn't at the '68 Democratic convention. I left Chicago a few days before it started because I knew there was going to be trouble. I'd been living in an ex movie theater with some artists and members of the Chicago Outlaws motorcycle gang and they had some goofy "plans", but a lot of my friends were involved in the demonstrations, and yeah, it was a police riot.

The mood of the crowd was ugly. The mood of the country was ugly and bordering on civil war in the cities. There'd been demonstrations in Chicago earlier that summer that showed what would happen: cops funneling crowds of thousands down to a single lane and beating people who strayed out of the tape just for the sake of beating them. Mayor Daley was sending a message: he wasn't going to allow any sort of demonstrations in his city.

The trouble started when the crowd tried to march on the Conrad Hilton, the hotel where the delegates were staying. They were met by tear gas and a wall of club-swinging cops on Michigan Avenue who beat everyone indiscriminately, and all hell broke loose. Would there have been trouble if the cops hadn't been so aggressive? Probably. But not like what happened.

As I recall, this country was founded by demonstrators, and the right to demonstrate is one of the first rights guaranteed by the constitution. What is a demonstration but a rage of conscience against complacency? The number of demonstrators in Denver is estimated to be about a thousand, hardly enough to create another Chicago. Maybe we should arrest them all before they can start, like they do in China, That would help built a more republican America.

Why were they marching on the hotel; what did they intend to do when they reached their destination and was their march orderly? Were they blocking traffic along the way, or smashing windows, or looting stores, or trashing cars or attacking those who were not with them? I concede the police probably did overreact, but there was plenty of provocation, and this was not even close to being a "peaceful demonstration."

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

SEVERUSMAX

There wont be any change until individuals have had enough of the bullshit and decide to go it alone. Like in the sense of quitting your job and starting your own business kind of fed up.

Good luck with that for most folks. As Kevin Nealon said in Weeds, "Small business in this country is fucked."

 

[Corylea]

I'm sure all of you know that Thomas Jefferson said

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

He was expecting violent demonstrations against the government of this country, and he thought it was a good thing. He also thought that the demonstrators had to be prepared to bleed, though.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I'm sure all of you know that Thomas Jefferson said

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

He was expecting violent demonstrations against the government of this country, and he thought it was a good thing. He also thought that the demonstrators had to be prepared to bleed, though.

"What nation can long preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that the people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms, I say."

"I hold it that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."

Two more Jefferson quotes....

 

[rgraham666]

Well, historically revolutions have thrown up governments at least as bad as the ones they destroyed and often worse.

The Czars were no fun and the Soviets even worse. The Shah was an ass but the Ayatollah was a lot more than that. Louis XVI was incompetent but The Terror killed tens of thousands and Napoleon managed to kill millions of Frenchmen and other Europeans.

The U.S. got lucky. I don't think it should count on this luck.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Well, historically revolutions have thrown up governments at least as bad as the ones they destroyed and often worse.

The Czars were no fun and the Soviets even worse. The Shah was an ass but the Ayatollah was a lot more than that. Louis XVI was incompetent but The Terror killed tens of thousands and Napoleon managed to kill millions of Frenchmen and other Europeans.

The U.S. got lucky. I don't think it should count on this luck.

There is the bad, yes. And the good. The French finally have a republic that works for them. The Brits eventually found a compromise that works. And Canadian revolts resulted in responsible government, eventually.

But your point is cogent, nonetheless. There is a great deal of risk with such changes.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Well, historically revolutions have thrown up governments at least as bad as the ones they destroyed and often worse.

The Czars were no fun and the Soviets even worse. The Shah was an ass but the Ayatollah was a lot more than that. Louis XVI was incompetent but The Terror killed tens of thousands and Napoleon managed to kill millions of Frenchmen and other Europeans.

The U.S. got lucky. I don't think it should count on this luck.

In all honesty, it should be pointed out that the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars mostly resulted from European monarchs attacking France. And getting their asses kicked by a people who were getting a taste of freedom.

 

[rgraham666]

The Revolutionary Wars, yes, at first. The later part of the Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars? Plain old fashioned imperialism as 'The Revolution' tried to increase its power and spread its 'glorious message'.

Napoleon has been the archetype of a military dictator every since.

He was the only person Jefferson ever hated.

Anyway the current problems in the States, in my opinion, have to do with the way the world has changed and the changed place the U.S. has in this world.

It's no longer 'the indispensable nation'. Instead it's 'first among equals' That will change soon when China surpasses it in wealth and power.

There's no longer cheap gas. America is powerful militarily but still not enough to conquer the world. Never will be.

Above all, the frontier is gone. Much of America's psyche was born in the frontier. There was always another opportunity over the horizon as far as America was concerned. If you wanted to change your life you went to the edge of America and beyond, set up things to run your own way.

That's not possible anymore.

Most of the demand for rebellion comes from people who will not, indeed cannot, accept these facts. They want 'once upon a time' back and they are willing to tear their country apart to get it.

 

[Belegon]

Above all, the frontier is gone. Much of America's psyche was born in the frontier. There was always another opportunity over the horizon as far as America was concerned. If you wanted to change your life you went to the edge of America and beyond, set up things to run your own way.

I disagree...

I feel that we still have frontiers. Physically, we have space. Environmentally, we have conservation. Emotionally, we have the vacancy we once felt we occupied as leaders in the world.

Jefferson felt that we were a unique and revolutionary society. I agree. And I feel that we can be again.

There are still frontiers aplenty.