The Modern Athlete?

[BlackShanglan]

Actually, some thought might be given to the third party involved in the matter, the children. Frequently the teacher who has 'inappropriate relations' with one child hits on several children, before the actual damage is done. The offenses are frequently quite simple to prove. However, the schools don't like to undermine their own image.

Cobblers. Unless the alleged actions took place in view of a video camera, it's he said / she said in a court of law. That's the problem with this sort of offense. You can have a situation in which common sense clearly says one thing, but proof beyond a reasonable doubt won't support it. Knowing that a thing is true and proving it are two quite different matters. Insinuating that I gave no thought to the children is insulting and ridiculous. My point was that precisely because the children have to be protected, this situation is a nightmare because it's very difficult to take action that will stand up in law.

If there is sufficient evidence, the matter is quite simple.

Yes, under those circumstances everything is simple. However, my post referred to those instances when, as with Vick's current situation with his employers, there is strong suspicion but no legal decision yet available or no proof that would meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

There are basically four parties to a legal action. On the one side is the school and the children. On the other side is the teacher and the teacher's union. If there is sufficient evidence, as is frequently the case, the teacher can be taken down hard and the union can pay damages. However, most schools lack the guts to pursue legal action to protect the students under their care. JMNTHO.

No, most schools lack the resources to mount 24-hour watch on members of their faculty, or to fight a legal case in which, without concrete evidence that the crime has been committed, they are likely to lose - and the money they lose, as they are all too aware, belongs to those students whom they are attempting to protect and educate. One mis-timed firing that goes badly in court, however sincerely the administrators might believe the allegations to be true, and however true but unsupported by concrete evidence they might be, can wipe half a year's operating expenses out of the budget.

The problem at heart is this. Our hearts tell us to use the "reasonable person" standard. If a reasonable person would look at the evidence and conclude that the allegations were true, we want that teacher out. However, administrators are aware that when it comes to charging the teacher with a crime, the police must use the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, which applies to all criminal courts. This is a higher standard of evidence and more difficult to prove. Because these different evidentiary standards exist, there will always be circumstances in which most people believe that someone has committed a crime, but no one can prove it to the standard required by the criminal courts. Without a conviction or, as will often be the case if there is not enough evidence from the point of view of the police, without even an arrest, the school will have difficulty proving that a termination was warranted.

Before you blame schools for a lack of guts, ask yourself whether you'd be willing to gamble half of your own yearly budget on a charge that, if not proved, would not only cost you the money but also result in absolutely nothing being done to stop the problem.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Its too bad we are more grossed out and sad when it happens to animals than to our fellow beings.

The quality of mercy is not strained.

Or, in other words, it's not a zero-sum game.

I've seen several threads on this dog-fighting case on the GB, and someone always says something like this - "It's a shame no one cares this much for humans." And yet one has only to look at the other threads to observe that quite a lot of people care at least this much about other human beings. Sympathy, kindness, and mercy are not finite things; a person who can feel them for an animal has ample left over for humans unless s/he has some personal grudge against humans.

It's also a damned rare case in which literally dozens of humans have been systematically forced to fight each other to the death, with others shot, hanged, electrocuted or beaten to death and all buried on the same property. I have a feeling that there would be threads about that as well.

 

[Lee Chambers]

It's also a damned rare case in which literally dozens of humans have been systematically forced to fight each other to the death, with others shot, hanged, electrocuted or beaten to death and all buried on the same property. I have a feeling that there would be threads about that as well.

The horse speaks true. It isn't fair to say we care more for these animals then we would care for other human beings, be they adults or children. This is simply a matter of something so large scale and high profile that it can't help but catch media attention. Would you rather we not react to it? Or should we post up something along the lines of "You know, this dog fighting case isn't such a big deal. They're just a bunch of dogs. I mean, if it were people that would be totally different. But it's just dumb animals, who cares?"

I imagine if I said something like that it would generate a very different reaction.

 

[CharleyH]

we lump babies/children and animals together in that we feel endless compassion for them. it's pain and suffering for adult humans where the sympathy is not always so forthcoming...
x
V

Some people do. I do not. I do feel for animals, as I love them so, but I also eat them. Not the cute furry ones like Patches or Snickers, but you know, cows and pigs and chickens and such. Human children are not animals and I NEVER lump them in such a way. Should we not feel compassion for our fellow human innocents more than we do for animal innocents?

Explain a bit more for me, please, V.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Should we not feel compassion for our fellow human innocents more than we do for animal innocents?

Well, I think we do given that we don't complain when people eat animals, but would certainly feel different about them eating babies. But eating an animal for sustenance and torturing it for amusement are quite different things. I think that really, what the human is making of himself shocks and horrifies us as much as what he is doing to the animals. We all tend to react more strongly to calculated torment with no purpose but to torment than we do to killing that occurs with some excuse or more understandable explanation, like fear or jealousy or even rage. We understand killing because one is very angry; we're more horrified at the idea of killing for the fun of it. It says very unsettling things about the killer.

 

[Vermilion]

Well, I think we do given that we don't complain when people eat animals, but would certainly feel different about them eating babies. But eating an animal for sustenance and torturing it for amusement are quite different things. I think that really, what the human is making of himself shocks and horrifies us as much as what he is doing to the animals. We all tend to react more strongly to calculated torment with no purpose but to torment than we do to killing that occurs with some excuse or more understandable explanation, like fear or jealousy or even rage. We understand killing because one is very angry; we're more horrified at the idea of killing for the fun of it. It says very unsettling things about the killer.

what he said...

 

[R. Richard]

Cobblers. Unless the alleged actions took place in view of a video camera, it's he said / she said in a court of law. That's the problem with this sort of offense. You can have a situation in which common sense clearly says one thing, but proof beyond a reasonable doubt won't support it. Knowing that a thing is true and proving it are two quite different matters. Insinuating that I gave no thought to the children is insulting and ridiculous. My point was that precisely because the children have to be protected, this situation is a nightmare because it's very difficult to take action that will stand up in law.

It can be a he said/she said case, in which case it might well be best to let the offender go. When it gets to be a he sadi/several she said case, then the balance tips well into the victims' side.

Before you blame schools for a lack of guts, ask yourself whether you'd be willing to gamble half of your own yearly budget on a charge that, if not proved, would not only cost you the money but also result in absolutely nothing being done to stop the problem.

I faced a situation where I was 'blackballed' in a town. I waited until I had the right evidence and then tried to file a lawsuit. The lawyer representing the largest of the employers on the other side sneered, "No personnel person in this town will swear to what was supposedly said. Your little boy is dead." My lawyer asked, "Would you like to talk to the personnel person, she is my secretary and the evidence is on tape." [The 'little boy' came back to life!] I risked more than a little bit of my budget, I risked lifetime unemployability, or so they thought. I won, although I did have to leave town.

I doubt if my 'victory' did much to stop the blackball situation, however, the process undoubtedly got a lot more careful. It did cost the other side a lot of money and allowed me to start my own business.

 

[Boota]

Yes. Where did all the heroes and role models go?

They're still out there. They're just busy NOT getting into trouble and making the news.

If they find that Vick is guilty I can only hope that he is punished as harshly as any non-celebrity would be, but I seriously doubt that will happen. This is a crime that is far more insidious than mere cruelty to animals. The kinds of people who do this shit are pure scum. (I've dealt extensively with them and I know what I'm talking about. Complete wastes of flesh in all areas.) The death penalty may not be legally applicable, but society would be a bit safer if it were. These are people who would think nothing of doing the same thing to a human. They'd just be more careful about who saw them do it.

 

[S-Des]

Dont get me into salaries for sportsmen, though, it;s absurd. footballers (soccer players to you Americans) can earn in a week - or even a day - what it would take a year for someone like a nurse to earn. I think that is sickening on many levels, then to see the footballers blowing all that money on complete shite (like Colleen whatsherface) <shakes head> it just compounds it. These people have, by dint of their talent for kicking a ball about, become millionnaires and role models for countless children, but Beckham, irritating as he is, is probably the only one I can name who actually tries to live up his position as a role model.

</rant and threadjack>

Sorry S Des... hobby horse of mine.
x
V

Don't be sorry, I'm frustrated with most of them as well. Although I have some agreement with your (and Lee's position), I think we have a much deeper problem. Many of the athletes being given millions come from backrounds that are so foul that they believe smacking around a woman, torturing a bunch of animals, or being involved in shootings aren't really a big deal (in fact, are often a sign of their status). Then they're given tons of money, media attention, and the backing of affluent organizations (then we act surprised when something really bad happens).

I guess what I was getting at with the thread is how bad the situation is getting, with almost no remorse shown from the people involved. At least three shootings involving death (or one with permanent paralysis) for the victim in less than a year (just in the NFL, which only has 34 teams)? Add in Vick's problem, then normal DUIs, assaults, rapes, etc... and I can't see any comparison to any era in this country's history. We're not talking about bad behavior among athletes here, we're talking about criminals who should be in jail, but find themselves idolized instead.

 

[BlackShanglan]

It can be a he said/she said case, in which case it might well be best to let the offender go. When it gets to be a he sadi/several she said case, then the balance tips well into the victims' side.

The balance is better, but hardly "well into the victims' side" without any concrete evidence. There's no telling what a jury will do with a case like this, and it will always be a gamble.

I faced a situation where I was 'blackballed' in a town. I waited until I had the right evidence and then tried to file a lawsuit. The lawyer representing the largest of the employers on the other side sneered, "No personnel person in this town will swear to what was supposedly said. Your little boy is dead." My lawyer asked, "Would you like to talk to the personnel person, she is my secretary and the evidence is on tape." [The 'little boy' came back to life!] I risked more than a little bit of my budget, I risked lifetime unemployability, or so they thought. I won, although I did have to leave town.

Yes, but - and this really is the issue at hand, if you'll look back at the original post - you had evidence on tape. I realize that I grow repetitive here, but my post addressed what one does when there is not evidence on tape.

I doubt if my 'victory' did much to stop the blackball situation, however, the process undoubtedly got a lot more careful. It did cost the other side a lot of money and allowed me to start my own business.

Well done. It's good to see that you won out over an unscrupulous opponent.

 

[S-Des]

RR compared Mike Vick (and others like him) to Babe Ruth. Hate to say, "I told you so . . . ", but . . .

The HSUS Calls on the NFL to Stop Fumbling on Dogfighting

Referring to Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick, under investigation for dogfighting, running back Clinton Portis said, "I think people should mind their business ... I don't know if he was fighting dogs or not, but it's his property, his dog, if that's what he wants to do, do it. If it's behind closed doors, it's okay."

The rest of the disgusting comments are here. I heard the whole interview on the radio and there were actually a few sick comments that I couldn't find, but this gives you the gist of his opinion (he said that since he's from Mississippi, he knows a lot of people who do dogfighting). If you think this Michael Vick thing is limited to Michael Vick, you'd be dead wrong. This is the tip of a very sick iceberg that has infected sports. It's not racial, or even economic (necessarily). There is a mindset out there that thinks these kinds of things are OK.

I watched a long interview with Jason Whitlock (an African American journalist) who says that "The Hip-Hop Culture" is destroying African American culture. I don't know if I'd go that far (and the problem is certainly not limited to any race, religion or sex), but there are a lot of kids out there who are told over and over that criminal activity is all right (even that it makes them cool). If they have a strong family, hopefully they see that crap for what it is. The ones whose parents don't care (or only have one parent who is too busy working to try to keep a roof over there heads) are a different story altogether. A week doesn't go by here that we don't have a tragic story in the news about some teenager who kills someone that hasn't done anything wrong (often a young child). These monsters rarely show remorse, often acting as if the victim deserved it for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. When these people happen to be blessed with athletic talent (and manage to avoid long jail sentences until they reach college or the pros), you wind up with dog fighting, battery, rape, and people even involved in murder. These incidents have been ramping up for a while (I remember when a huge deal was made out of Ray Lewis being involved in a murder at a club during Super Bowl weekend, some years back), and I don't think anything short of expulsions from pro sports for offenders will have any effect.

It would also be nice to see the authorities put people like Pierre Pierce (Iowa basketball player who got away with one rape, so he tried it again) in jail the first time they commit felonies, instead of cutting them a break because they make their team better. Steve Alford (the Iowa coach) helped him get away with it, and kept him on the team after his first offense (saying some amazingly offensive things in the process), and has moved on to greener patures now that Pierce was convicted a second time and is in jail instead of the NBA. The whole thing is just disgusting.

 

[BlackShanglan]

The amount of wealth and adulation that can come to an athlete as a young person are serious problems. If I had a child who wished to lead such a life, I would be gravely concerned about his or her sense of reality. At an age when any person is learning much about how the adult world works and what hsi or her own personal nature is, these individuals are often being taught some very unusual lessons. I don't say that to excuse deplorable behavior, but the experiences they have are often such as would be likely to destabilize the most solidly grounded of us. The transition from adolescence to adulthood is difficult enough without seeing it through a weirdly distorting lens of money, yes-men, team fanatics, and parasites constantly looking to latch on to a rising star. I honestly think that young athletes need more than just a stable home life before they become stars; I think that they need help and mentoring throughout their early careers, and ideally someone still capable of helping them to set limits on their behavior. But that's not an easy thing to do.

Still, I think it's important to remember that athletes are just people, like the rest of us. I knew many of the football players at the university I attended, and what always struck me was what a varied lot they were. Yes, some of them were living hard and fast - but some of all students were. Others were quite different. One who later went on to join the professional leagues I remember as a gentle, old-fashioned country boy in the best sense of the word, who addressed his professors as "sir" and "ma'am," talked quietly but with passion about his faith, and once announced to a group of fellow students who were talking about sexual conquests that he was a virgin and proud of it - and he was in his third year then, so it wasn't for lack of opportunity I'm sure.

I knew many people like him, and I've always wished them well and hoped that they've managed to keep their feet under them as they go forward in life. It's easy to see the worst of any group, but there are a lot of decent, hard-working young men and women in sports, and it's important to recognize that what we see in the media is only the segment most likely to sell advertising space.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Atlanta Falcons are holding a live press conference at 4:00 PM EST today to discuss Vick's situation.

Conference is being broadcast live over their website:
http://www.atlantafalcons.com/

-Sheila

 

[S-Des]

Atlanta Falcons are holding a live press conference at 4:00 PM EST today to discuss Vick's situation.

Conference is being broadcast live over their website:
http://www.atlantafalcons.com/

-Sheila

Considering the public comments from other athletes (before their agents got to them and told them to shut the fuck up), I'm just wondering how many others have done the same thing? BTW, in a humorous moment, Senator Robert Byrd gave a ridiculously overwrought soliloquy about the situation, pausing often for effect and seeming to tear up. Isn't this the guy who was the leader of his local chapter of the KKK? Such a sweetheart.