The Non-English Debate Continues...

Non-English Suggestions

Svenskaflicka, we're all pretty much agreeing that it isn't fair to be able to translate your own work. What if the rule was that you could receive an infinite number of points from translating others works, but you could only translate your own original stories?

Everyone else, if you don't do your own translation, the max points you can get for the first story is 2, and the max points you can receive from others translating your stories is 8.

Opinions?

Chicklet
 
Graymouse said:

Although I have yet to actually submit anything here, I'm excited--I'm thinking it just might be the thing that motivates me to get off my ass and finish all those half-baked stories I have languishing on my hard drive.

;) I hear ya there. Though I have submitted a few things (under a couple of different names), I have disks and a hard drive collecting virtual dust on them now. Also, this is my first year "trying" the contest even though I've been around Lit since early 2000. I, too, am very excited! :D


...I would think the question is more a matter of what this competition is designed to be a contest of--one's willingness/ability to work hard in front of a computer or one's skill as a writer/author. From what I understand (in that Literotica is primarily a site for the publishing of original erotic writings), Literotica Survivor is a contest of one's writing skills.

I totally agree with you.


I don't think this inability to write lesbian erotica, based on, as you've said, an inability to relate/understand the characters' motivations, is a valid compararison to others' inability to translate stories. I say this because I think the ability to stretch our mental boundaries to encompass the thoughts and feelings of characters so unlike our real-life selves is a big part of what the craft of writing is about. When we lack the ability/skill/desire/whatever to do this, I think we ought to be susceptible to disadvantage in a contest of writing, because, at least in this case, our skill as a writer has broken down.

I agree with this, too. Not everyone is bi-(or more so)-lingual. I took several years of Spanish in high school and college, but for the life of me I cannot write a story in Spanish. (And, I think it would be easier to translate an already written story into another language rather than to craft an entirely new story in said language.)


Besides, in terms of an inability to mentally/emotionally relate, I'd wager everyone has category hangups--I mean, I know there's no way I can ever write a loving wives story, for example.

Exactly!


That is to say, I have never written a gay male story but I might be persuaded to do so for the sake of the contest. My regular readership (imagine, for a moment, that I have one :)) might not be interested in such a story (being that they're not the ones competing in a writing contest, I guess they're entitled to their hangups.) So by writing in this category, I'm cutting myself off from a potentially large base of my "regular" readers in the interest of furthering my standing. But it's my choice.

Once again, another wonderful point! I believe it was Chicklet who said something to the affect, in the Story Ideas board once, that she didn't like incest stories, per se, but that she needed one for the Survivor contest.
 
Everyone else, if you don't do your own translation, the max points you can get for the first story is 2, and the max points you can receive from others translating your stories is 8.

Ok, so, I would need....6 stories total translated by someone else?

And what about others who would be doing their own translateion?
 
DANG!

I never should have said I don't have any other langs! Now I'll just have to abide by my stupid but well meaning honesty!
 
to an extent we have to trust everyone in this contest to be fair and honest. Lying might get you the win, but it's not going to be a fair win.

Chicklet
 
I was just teaseing.

Heck, I made a lot of comments on this thread and the only one that gets a response is the one about points and the one where I'm jokeing!:p

PS, did you see how my immunity number was like totally skipped this week? Both the numbers on either side, but not mine!
 
yeah it's so twisted and cruel sometimes. if only we could say "i'd like numbers 1 through 10, please."
 
I still don't agree.

OK, so Graymouse makes a good point by saying that my inability to write lesbian erotica is not the same as a english-only-speaker(from now on referred to as a EOS) being anable to write a non-ebglish story. In one case, it's limitation of imagination, and in the other it's a lack of knowledge. Good point, I admit.

But I still don't think it's fair that you would limit non-english to original stories only, or that you would be limited to translating other's works. I didn't count my translation of Chicklet's story in my final score, because I thought that since she was the author, the points should go to her, and I only translated it to be nice. If I had understood porperly that I could get a point for it, my total score would have been 160.

Being bi-lingual shouldn't be a license to double one's story points. People who's primarly language in non-English already have a serious handicap. Simply being bi-lingual shouldn't be a huge advandage.

You say it's unfair to be able to translate your own work. How come? How come it's unfair that I use the knowledge that I have? Isn't that knowledge aquired through training, just as my writing skills is aquired through years of training?

What if the rule was that you could receive an infinite number of points from translating others works, but you could only translate your own original stories?

Now I'm confused. Translate my own original stories? You mean like I've been doing so far?

Everyone else, if you don't do your own translation, the max points you can get for the first story is 2, and the max points you can receive from others translating your stories is 8.

And why should there be only 2 points for the first story? Why should there be a difference in the score system between EOS and mulitlingual writers?

So, the fact that one does or doesn't speak another language well enough to write and/or translate a story in it shouldn't qualify as a reason they need special treatment and an alternative way to make points.

Cuz the last two years, I've just used immunities--like most people who can't finish a category for some reason.

Exactly. I use immunity points for the categories I can't write about, and I make up for it by making many points in the non-English section. Others may use their immunity points in non-english and make up for it by writing a lot of stories on lesbian sex, Mind-Control sex, BDSM, or whatever!
That's the point of immunities - to be used as a "Get out of jail for free-card"!!!

No matter how we twist or bend the rules, there will always be some categories that don't fit one group of writers, and there will never be 100% fairness. I say, leave it as it is, and let everyone make their points by writing, translating or using immunities.


(Quotes from Wm_Sexspear, Chicklet, Chicklet, and RisiaSkye.)
 
Svenskaflicka said:
Now I'm confused. Translate my own original stories? You mean like I've been doing so far?

no. You'll have to choose - either categorize it as NonEnglish or as whatever other category it belongs in.

I was thinking that we could post the English version of the story at the end of the nonenglish, so that our english readers can see it too.



Svenskaflicka said:
And why should there be only 2 points for the first story? Why should there be a difference in the score system between EOS and mulitlingual writers?

Because you (the one who's story has been translated by another person) weren't doing the work for that category. You should like this one, Svenska, cause it gives you the advantage.

I'm definitely going to cap or limit this category, along with Audio and Illustrated (which I'm not even sure had to be original last year; they will this year for sure) the question is just How.

Find a comprimise that you like, Svenska, and post it here. Please.

Chicklet
 
Svenskaflicka said:

I still don't agree...

So, you think it's fair that you are allowed to write a story for any given subject and you're allowed to REWRITE the SAME story in another language for MAXIMUM points in both categories???!!? You think that's fair?? Why can't the rest of us write a story for more than one category just like you then?

Many people have posted many ideas here. I feel all have tried to "help" you in some way...BUT you're not going to get everything you want. That's just plain not fair to the rest of us. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
 
Chicklet said:
no. You'll have to choose - either categorize it as NonEnglish or as whatever other category it belongs in.

I was thinking that we could post the English version of the story at the end of the nonenglish, so that our english readers can see it too.

Meaning I would first write the story in, say, french, and then translate it into english, and submit both versions as one and the same story? That would mean I would be doing twice the work for the same 1 point? THAT is unfair!!!


Chicklet said:
Because you (the one who's story has been translated by another person) weren't doing the work for that category. You should like this one, Svenska, cause it gives you the advantage.

Considering that I translate my own stories, rather than having them translated for me, NO, this does NOT give me an advantage! On the contrary, it gives me a disadvantage.

You're saying that either you'll limit the numbers of stories I can submit here, OR I will only get points for stories others will translate for me(!), OR I will have to write a story in non-English AND English, thus making two stories, and submitting them as one, only getting one point for a double workload.

Now how can I make a compromise here... I have to think about that, because right now, I really can't think of anything. I feel discriminated against here.

*signing off to run errands and calm down*

Will be back later.
 
BlessedBe said:
Many people have posted many ideas here. I feel all have tried to "help" you in some way...

yes.

please suggest something in the middle, svenska. what's the MINUMUM you could be happy with? We'll work *something* out, I promise.

Chicklet
 
I'm sorry, but all I've got to say is GROW UP. This shit is almost making it not worth it to enter the contest. :mad:
 
Svenskaflicka said:
Meaning I would first write the story in, say, french, and then translate it into english, and submit both versions as one and the same story? That would mean I would be doing twice the work for the same 1 point? THAT is unfair!!!

I didn't mean that - I guess I was thinking selfishly, for instance, if I were to write a story I wanted posted in NonEnglish and it couldn't be posted in an English category as well, I would send the nonenglish version to, say, you, to translate for me. You would translate my story into swedish, and send it back to me. When I submitted it, I would put your story first, and then my original directly afterwards. You wouldn't *have* to do it, it just saves some stress of not having other readers able to read your work.

Svenskaflicka said:
Considering that I translate my own stories, rather than having them translated for me, NO, this does NOT give me an advantage! On the contrary, it gives me a disadvantage.

It gives you an advantage because people not doing their own work (unlike you) will have less points total that they can receive. You will have an advantage because you will be able to receive more points total.
 
And Now, for Something Compelely Different

Ok, I brace myself to say this BUT!

What if we don't include this catagory, like we didn't include Extereme?

I am assumeing Extereme was excluded because it was simply too harsh for a lot of writers to do. In my option, so is the translated.

I think it should be dropped entirely.

I realize that this may be unfair to the non English speaking/writing, but it also seems that the biggest part of the debate is amount of points awarded for stories that aren't orginal (possiabliy) and the hard work put in by translators who don't get credit for helping others.

Either that or you MUST translate your own work, and if you can't, use an immunity or skip the cat all together, just as you would if you couldnt' write an anal or a whatever story.

I suggest posting a poll for this, if that's ok.

Yes, do not use this catagory

Yes, only works translated by the writer can be submitted.

Yes, only orginal works translated by the writer can be submitted, no points for the story translated into another lang in another cat.

Yes, I'd like for Polite to hush up.
:p
 
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BlessedBe said:
I'm sorry, but all I've got to say is GROW UP. This shit is almost making it not worth it to enter the contest. :mad:

At least I haven't stooped to insults yet...
 
BlessedBe said:
So, you think it's fair that you are allowed to write a story for any given subject and you're allowed to REWRITE the SAME story in another language for MAXIMUM points in both categories???!!? You think that's fair?? Why can't the rest of us write a story for more than one category just like you then?

Many people have posted many ideas here. I feel all have tried to "help" you in some way...BUT you're not going to get everything you want. That's just plain not fair to the rest of us. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

YES, I think it's fair that I get 3 points for each First story in each category I write, and 1 point for each additional story I submit, be it translated or newly written!!!
You all have that option! If you can't translate the stories yourself, you are free to find someone who can translate them for you, and get points for that! Atleast that's what we did 2002!

In the Real World, people who have more knowledge get an advantage! That's just the way it is!

And in what way have you been trying to "help" me? All I've seen so far is limits, limits, limits!
 
Chicklet said:
It gives you an advantage because people not doing their own work (unlike you) will have less points total that they can receive. You will have an advantage because you will be able to receive more points total.

How is that? If I submit one story to NE, I get 3 points. Then, for each story I submit, I get another 1 point. If you submit a story someone has translated for you, don't you get 3 points? And another 1 point for each additional story?

Compromise... my minimum... well, since Non-English is my strongest category, I don't want it to be removed altogether. That would be something like removing the Lesbian Sex category, which you are very good at, Chicklet.
I want everyone to get an equal share of points for this category, no matter if they have their stories translated for them or they translate them themselves.

That's my minimum.

But I would also like to point out, like RisiaSkye and PoliteSuccubus have said, that if you can't write a story, for whatever reason it is, you have the option of using an immunity there.
If you are very good at writing stories for this or that category, you are free to write 50 stories in this category.
I will use immunities for the categories I can't write, and make up for it by having a lot of stories in Non-English.
Everyone else can either get a translator or use an immunity for Non-English, and make up for it by having a lot of stories in THEIR favourite category.

I'm not telling anyone to use less than 100% of their capacity. Please, don't limit mine.
 
The way I read it, Svenska doesn't want to cap "Translations" because she gets an unfair advantage that no-one else really gets.

I say--like Jon said--make sure they're original works. Stories written as NE only, don't cap them. I can't stick an incest story in group sex and exhibition and voyuer as well. Why should Svenskaflick use one story in two categories? Don't try that translation is hard thing. I've done translations and English is not your native language. I can translate 1,000 words outside of my native language in about 3 hours.

Acutally, I like the notion of killing translations by persons other than the self and audio by other people completely. If you can't do it yourself, get an immunity. I cite Sveska's inability to write in the Lesbian category as a good reason for this. Some people simply can't write in certain categories for whatever reason. I see no reason why translations shouldn't be different.

The reason poetry is capped--and I will not participate in the contest if poetry is not capped--is because a person can pop out about a hundred poems over a weekend and have them posted. Doesn't matter if they're any good or not. Stories have a minimum requirement of 750 words, so they take at least a little effort to put out. I saw a poem with 8 words and 2 lines. You can't compete with that and I don't see a reason to clog up the lists with crappy poetry people put out simply for points.
 
This Is What I Want

This is what I'm thinking. This is where I think I'm going to draw the line. No caps on anything but poetry, but restrictions do doing it yourself and having each be an original.

Non-English
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Translated By The Author

Audio
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Read By The Author

Illustrated
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Illustrated By The Author


For a lot of these it'll be a matter of trust. How will we know that it's your voice? We won't. We just have to trust.

Chicklet
 
PoliteSuccubus said:

I am assumeing Extereme was excluded because it was simply too harsh for a lot of writers to do.

Extreme is excluded because it is considered to be "another site", and because Laurel doesn't update it often. (I have a story, under my Tiggs name even, that was accepted LAST summer. It still hasn't been posted. There was an update in Dec. and my story still hasn't been posted. And, there were requests from Story Ideas that were newer than my story and they have been added! :( )
 
Svenskaflicka said:

At least I haven't stooped to insults yet...

Telling someone to "grow up" is an insult? :confused: I wasn't name calling, after all. :rolleyes:
 
Svenskaflicka said:

YES, I think it's fair that I get 3 points for each First story in each category I write, and 1 point for each additional story I submit, be it translated or newly written!!!
You all have that option! If you can't translate the stories yourself, you are free to find someone who can translate them for you, and get points for that! Atleast that's what we did 2002!

In the Real World, people who have more knowledge get an advantage! That's just the way it is!

And in what way have you been trying to "help" me? All I've seen so far is limits, limits, limits!

Go REread what you quoted. You're skirting the issues. :rolleyes:
 
KillerMuffin said:

The way I read it, Svenska doesn't want to cap "Translations" because she gets an unfair advantage that no-one else really gets.

That's exactly what it is. :mad:
 
Re: This Is What I Want

Chicklet said:

Non-English
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Translated By The Author

Audio
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Read By The Author

Illustrated
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Illustrated By The Author

Sounds good. Can we all agree now? Chicklet, you are the Mod to the contest this year. It's your choice, not Sven's. Hell, if you want, ask Laurel her opinion since it's her site and her contest...?
 
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