The Obama phenomenon

[Belegon]

And we're working on it here in Los Angeles County as well.

Yes, well aware of the issue you're speaking of...

I'd prefer "Double Bubble" had continued to mean bubble gum, ya know?

 

[DesertPirate]

There are four boxes to use to change government: soap, ballot, jury, ammo! Use in that order.

Now you understand the Second Amendment

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

The man has written two books. You all are presumably literate, since you are writers.

Go read. Then come back and discuss how "empty" the man is. And remember the first book was written before he entered politics... which means he did things like admit *GASP* that he INHALED when he smoked pot.

All political speeches are essentially empty posturing if looked at from the opposing POV or with a critical eye. Including the most famous ones.

The man's speeches are "messianic" is the best crit you can come up with on him? Gee... seems to be a way to combat "inspiring" by saying "if you were inspired, you must be dumb enough to listen to revival tent speeches and believe in faith healing and speaking in tongues."

I for one am glad we actually have someone who's a skilled orator running.

Speeches fire people up. Fired up people do things. That's why people use them on angry mobs...

Is combining messianism with politics with running for the most powerful office in the land the "best I can come up with?" No, but it's the thing that should be of general interest regardless of one's partisan or ideological leanings.

 

[Belegon]

Is combining messianism with politics with running for the most powerful office in the land the "best I can come up with?" No, but it's the thing that should be of general interest regardless of one's partisan or ideological leanings.

Roxy, I love that you debate primarily on subject and that I can't recall examples of you getting personal...

...but I absolutely believe that comments about whether or not Barack Obama is "messianistic" are based in your partisan and idealogical leanings. As evidenced by your choice of cartoon and by;

IOW, win or lose, those bright young people who are high on the drug of Obama hope will be disappointed.

Therefore, I don't buy that your post was directed at the "general interest". Just like I don't believe the cartoonists choices of a black man and a woman to be having the discussion was random.***

Is Barack Obama perfect? Duh. No one who really should be President actually WANTS to be President, IMHO. The position, by nature, attracts an individual motivated by certain things, especially power.

But to criticize a man for deliberately seeking to inspire when he is chasing a job that requires exactly that ability to do well? I don't get where you are coming from with that one.

Presidents are both far more and far less powerful than we often believe. One way a President can get things done is by inspiring people enough that their representatives are afraid to not pay attention to the movement beneath their feet.

... the fact that preachers have been known to use the same tactic? Just speaks to its effectiveness, really.



*** Edited to Add: After following up on the cartoon, those two are regular characters in a daily strip... which doesn't mean it wasn't a deliberate choice to have that discussion between them, but should be mentioned for purposes of full disclosure.
(actually, I only read a couple and I think I could actually like it... might need to read a few more days of it.)

 

[Guest]

More and more people are getting off their butts and participating in caucuses and voting in primaries. They have been motivated to do so.

Inspired, as it were.

It's about damn time.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxy, I love that you debate primarily on subject and that I can't recall examples of you getting personal...

...but I absolutely believe that comments about whether or not Barack Obama is "messianistic" are based in your partisan and idealogical leanings. As evidenced by your choice of cartoon and by;


Therefore, I don't buy that your post was directed at the "general interest". Just like I don't believe the cartoonists choices of a black man and a woman to be having the discussion was random.***

Is Barack Obama perfect? Duh. No one who really should be President actually WANTS to be President, IMHO. The position, by nature, attracts an individual motivated by certain things, especially power.

But to criticize a man for deliberately seeking to inspire when he is chasing a job that requires exactly that ability to do well? I don't get where you are coming from with that one.

Presidents are both far more and far less powerful than we often believe. One way a President can get things done is by inspiring people enough that their representatives are afraid to not pay attention to the movement beneath their feet.

... the fact that preachers have been known to use the same tactic? Just speaks to its effectiveness, really.



*** Edited to Add: After following up on the cartoon, those two are regular characters in a daily strip... which doesn't mean it wasn't a deliberate choice to have that discussion between them, but should be mentioned for purposes of full disclosure.
(actually, I only read a couple and I think I could actually like it... might need to read a few more days of it.)

It's no secret around here that I find the intrusive government, high-tax policies perferred by Obama, Hillary and virtually all potential Dem presidential candidates highly objectionable. In the past and no doubt in the future I'll have plenty to say about them, and you know I won't be bashful or coy about it.

This really is about something else. The kind of messianic language I've quoted in this thread and the influence it's apparently having on large numbers of people is outside the mainstream of U.S. politics.

Certainly it's normal for idealistic young people in particular to get excited about a candidate and hopeful about the prospects. Heck, when I was a kid I clipped a photo of JFK with the "Ask not" quote from a magazine and pasted on my bedroom wall. When I was a little older I also learned that it's normal for young people to be disappointed when they're finally slapped in the face with the sausage-making compromises that go into the actual production and implementation of public policy.

But no canidate in my lifetime has produced this kind of messianic rhetoric and "buzz." As I say, it's outside the mainstream. All I know about Huey Long is what I read in the history books, but perhaps he was a previous embodiment of this sort of thing.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Website: Is Barack Obama the Messiah?

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/spitfiregriffin/2279718287_1c865f6505.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/spitfiregriffin/hope_of_the_future.jpg

 

[Guest]

Why are people so afraid?

I expect FOX News to be spreading this sort of stuff.

 

[Belegon]

I respect Roxy's right to her own opinion...

but I will NOT go through this process always being afraid. I remain a person with open eyes, but still hopeful...

 

[Guest]

I respect Roxy's right to her own opinion...

but I will NOT go through this process always being afraid. I remain a person with open eyes, but still hopeful...

I have hope.

I haven't in such a very long time.

 

[AvoidingRealWork]

All those highly educated folks voting for Obama have to know something, don't they?

I have to say I'd hold my nose and pick Obama out of the three remaining contenders, more for what he isn't than what he is. He isn't a reactionary, isn't a warmonger, and isn't closed to new ideas.

Hillary is Democratic establishment through and through. If you want the Iraq War run by polls and committees, she's your gal. I'd rather have a McCain.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Why are people so afraid?

I expect FOX News to be spreading this sort of stuff.

What sort of stuff? Are you saying that the language I've quoted is not messianic? Are you saying that such language is within the mainstream of American politics? Are you saying that combining messianic fervor with the institutions of politics and government shouldn't make people a little bit nervous? Are you saying I shouldn't point these things out?

 

[Huckleman2000]

What sort of stuff? Are you saying that the language I've quoted is not messianic? Are you saying that such language is within the mainstream of American politics? Are you saying that combining messianic fervor with the institutions of politics and government shouldn't make people a little bit nervous? Are you saying I shouldn't point these things out?

Oh, come on Roxanne. It's not as if anyone's trying to institute some sort of theocracy or something. Oh, wait...

Your concern-trollism is pretty transparent on this one. God forbid that all these newcomers to the political process might become disillusioned at some point! Much better to keep the masses out of the process and leave it all to the corporatists, who have MBAs in disillusionment.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Oh, come on Roxanne. It's not as if anyone's trying to institute some sort of theocracy or something. Oh, wait...

Your concern-trollism is pretty transparent on this one. God forbid that all these newcomers to the political process might become disillusioned at some point! Much better to keep the masses out of the process and leave it all to the corporatists, who have MBAs in disillusionment.

I'm parsing this post for some bit that's not purely ad-hominem and responds substantively to the issues I raised, but coming up short . . .

Edited to add: To be fair, I don't suppose there's much you could say, except perhaps something like, "Yes, it is messianic language, it is a bit creepy, it does make me a bit uncomfortable, but I'm a liberal Democrat, and accepting it is a price I'm willing to pay, while keeping fingers crossed that the whole thing doesn't blow up in some unpredictable and dangerous way."

 

[Boxlicker101]

JFK was a nobody senator in 1960. Nixon had lots of experience in government and was vice president. People wanted to roll the dice.

Actually, they had exactly the same length of experience. They began as congressmen the same year, 1946, I think, but Nixon was a few years older and went up the ladder faster, quickly being elected senator and being elected VP in 1952, the youngest VP ever. There was a movement to nominate JFK to run for VP in 1956, but it didn't get very far.

By the time the election was held, JFK was just as well known. After all, he ran in a series of primaries, and Nixon was basically unopposed for his party's nomination.

 

[3113]

C'mon, Stella - it sounds like an overstuffed Bible-belt preacher

This said while holding to your Ayn Rand Bible?

 

[Huckleman2000]

I'm parsing this post for some bit that's not purely ad-hominem and responds substantively to the issues I raised, but coming up short . . .

Edited to add: To be fair, I don't suppose there's much you could say, except perhaps something like, "Yes, it is messianic language, it is a bit creepy, it does make me a bit uncomfortable, but I'm a liberal Democrat, and accepting it is a price I'm willing to pay, while keeping fingers crossed that the whole thing doesn't blow up in some unpredictable and dangerous way."

Maybe I didn't make myself clear - Yes, you are behaving like a concern troll, and your eta above just makes that more clear. I'm not responding substantively to your issues, because they are simply that: your issues.

I'm much less uncomfortable with what you are terming "messianic language" than I am with such language as "shrinking the government until it's small enough to drown in a bathtub", "government is the problem, not the solution", and Reagan's 'joke' about the worst thing you can hear after some misfortune is "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Hmmm, I must be on to something here, because so far the most common responses to this issue of messianic language are denial and ad hominem snarks at me for raising it.

 

[Belegon]

Hmmm, I must be on to something here, because so far the most common responses to this issue of messianic language are denial and ad hominem snarks at me for raising it.

Well, hows that working for you?

"I must be on to something because they think I'm wrong and they're mad..."

C'mon, give me a break. That may apply sometimes, but not every time...

 

[3113]

Hmmm, I must be on to something here, because so far the most common responses to this issue of messianic language are denial and ad hominem snarks at me for raising it.

Gosh, we must be onto something because Roxy's responses to us are all denial and ad hominem snarks at us.

RE: your message is an ad hominem snark. And you seem to be in denial that we could be offering rational observations about how incorrect you are, or pointing out, rightfully, the fact that you're using so many logical fallacies that your arguments have no merit--those fallacies include double standard, hypocrisy and inconsistency (you say you're skeptical of all politics, but clearly not of political philosophies you hold sacred).

Our "snarks" are not ad hominem if they're directed toward cracks in the argument you want us to consider; this includes your inability to be objective, critical and skeptical about your own worship of certain messiahs. A Catholic who criticizes a Mormon for holding ridiculous beliefs is being absurd; not to pun here, but you're a pot calling the kettle black. That severely undermines the credibility of your arguments.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROXANNE

The usual suspects do what they usually do: pound the table when they have no facts.

 

[impressive]

Edited to add: To be fair, I don't suppose there's much you could say, except perhaps something like, "Yes, it is messianic language, it is a bit creepy, it does make me a bit uncomfortable, but I'm a liberal Democrat, and accepting it is a price I'm willing to pay, while keeping fingers crossed that the whole thing doesn't blow up in some unpredictable and dangerous way."

Whoa! Thought police!

Rox, I find YOUR views scary. I find the enthusiasm surrounding Obama's campaign uplifting. However, in your eyes, it seems that must mean I've been brainwashed and robbed of the ability to think for myself.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Thats the impression I get. Gullible.

 

[Guest]

What sort of stuff? Are you saying that the language I've quoted is not messianic? Are you saying that such language is within the mainstream of American politics? Are you saying that combining messianic fervor with the institutions of politics and government shouldn't make people a little bit nervous? Are you saying I shouldn't point these things out?

I'm saying I'm an adult, and educated, and it is ridiculous that you feel it necessary to "point these things out."

The amount of emphasis you've placed on the concept seems very similar to what FOX News does when they are working their scare-mongering tactics.

Your opinion is just that. And you're welcome to it.

But how dare you ridicule those who do not share your views.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I cant imagine Roxanne ridiculing anyone.

But the conventional wisdom is Obama will melt-down the day after his inauguration. He'll be our first ceremonial president.