The Short Story vs. The Novel

[jomar]

Ever try to force a story into something it shouldn't be? Make it longer, make it shorter? It's often like fitting a round peg into a square hole. If the story flowed naturally from writer to page, it will be the length it should be when it's all said and done.

If it was forced, as a reader, I'll know it, and it will either be painful to read and I'll read it anyway (for whatever reason) or I'll stop. Usually the latter.

Has anybody (SelenaKittyn?) taken a long short story or novella and expanded it into novel length. If the longer short story or novella is lean, it would seem it could be beefed it up with more character background/development, scene description, action, another plot twist or two and you've got your bestseller. Thoughts?

ETA: I'm thinking about this because I'm working on a story that will have about seven or eight chapters on Lit with each about 3000 words. I think it could easily be expanded without forcing it.

 

[sunandshadow]

I've had someone hand me the first two chapters of a romance novel which read like a summary and badly needed to be slowed down/expanded to twice their length.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Interesting! I never come in this forum. This same topic is being kicked around in the Story Feedback forum by a few of us.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Interesting! I never come in this forum. This same topic is being kicked around in the Story Feedback forum by a few of us.

I've just started getting brave enough to critique other writers' work. I'm still not convinced I have enough experience and knowledge to offer any worthwhile advice.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I've just started getting brave enough to critique other writers' work. I'm still not convinced I have enough experience and knowledge to offer any worthwhile advice.

But Drk,
You know what you like and you have the experience to know what works and what doesn't. That's all they are looking for. I've read your posts over there. They are just fine

I've found it an interesting exercise, critiquing some of the worst stories on Lit. It makes you think about what works, what doesn't and why. It can't help but improve my tripe.

 

[Pure]

i think there must be an example of a short story that got turned into a novel. it would interesting to see. i mean by expansion in general.
anyone know of a case with a recognized author?

i think it's quite common, however, to see a short story become a chapter in a novel; often you see, "This story appeared in Hudson Review...." as a footnote to the first page of a chapter. the novel is written around the short story, as it were; it tells what happens next. (has to be done well, else you get, "An apparently lifeless form lay near the roadside; it was so still a few bird landed on it, but then flew off. as the day drew to a close, it moved; the head, that is. Josh raised himself slightly and through the blood caught sight of his surroundings. I'm not dead , he thought.")

that said, most novel chapters do NOT stand as self contained. i think it's quite UNcommon for a "novel" (or novel-like entity). to be composed of, say, six, self standing but also interrelated short stories. but there are probably some examples.

----
i'd like separately to address a key point of Lauren's. what's it take to make a sexy account into a short story? we know *why* it goes wrong-- the writer gets too involved in cock sizes, clenching pussies, etc-- but what it would take to make it right--other than talent and imagination-- is less clear.

 

[Virgin_Whore_Baby]

Many short stories end up being too short, without much detail or any "historical background". They meet, they fuck, they cum, its done. I want to know more than that. It is not long enough for me to have any interest, nor is it long enough to even turn me on. Then there are others that are almost painful. The story is indeed interesting but after about two pages, I'm over it. Especially the stories with chapter after chapter after chapter. My A.D.D. is too severe to read anything for more than 20 minutes at a time.

In fact, my own issues are of the same topic. I don't know if I want to write a whole novel or just multiple short stories. For maybe a year or so I've been developing a story, but recently got stuck. With the two characters I have envisioned for my tale, I've thought of many interesting sexual situation that they could get into. When thinking more about it, there seems to be more details of possibly naughty scenes than of details involving a plot with any substance. Should I put more thought into it or turn my possible novel into pure erotica?

Please forgive me for any grammatical errors I might have made.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I've just started getting brave enough to critique other writers' work. I'm still not convinced I have enough experience and knowledge to offer any worthwhile advice.

drk, just knowing what you like and don't like is a good enough launch pad. Writers want feedback, opinion, and any comment is a thoughtful and helpful touch. The author doesn't have to agree with you, me, whoever - just think for a moment.

BTW, I think you do a damn good job with your critiques. It's just a pity more writers don't give a little support to the newbies.

 

[Verdad]

i think there must be an example of a short story that got turned into a novel. it would interesting to see. i mean by expansion in general.
anyone know of a case with a recognized author?

Hmmm, off the bat, I can only think of Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes, but I've only read the short story version so I can't comment on the differences. I'm sure there are others, though.

 

[sunandshadow]

Ender's Game is a fairly well-known example of a novella which was expanded into a better novel.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Many short stories end up being too short, without much detail or any "historical background". They meet, they fuck, they cum, its done. I want to know more than that. It is not long enough for me to have any interest, nor is it long enough to even turn me on. Then there are others that are almost painful. The story is indeed interesting but after about two pages, I'm over it. Especially the stories with chapter after chapter after chapter. My A.D.D. is too severe to read anything for more than 20 minutes at a time.

I think you've hit upon the most important point in short story writing, VW. But if you stop and think about it, the writer has 3500-6000 words to develop his plot, create and develop his characters and, finally, move the story on to a logical ending in which there is some learning or change in the characters.

Because of the size limitation, that's a lot to do within those few words. To do more means you would have to steal space from those other primary elements. Which do you choose? Plot? Character Development? Story?

I agree many of the posted stories on Lit are not really short stories. They are more like, "Look at me. I fucked my neighbor." Obviously, the only thing important to the writer was pounding his pathetic, little cock into a hole. But that doesn't make a story. Is he any better off because he fucked some "Blonde with great big tits?" Did he learn anything? Was he a better person? In reality these are overblown viginettes. When I look at stories, I really want to see something more, not discriptions, I can generate those in my own mind, but some catharsis or learning process that makes the main characters better or, at least, different at the end of the story.

 

[Penelope Street]

This same topic is being kicked around in the Story Feedback forum by a few of us.

Did you kick it any ways we didn't?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Did you kick it any ways we didn't?

In a lot of ways we did kick the short story as was done here. We didn't really approach the novel like that. The Feedback Forum is really for the new writers and I don't think a discussion of the novel would have done much but confuse them.

 

[oggbashan]

I would reduce the lower definition of a 'short story' to 50 words.

But I would, wouldn't I?

Is it possible that the length of short stories, of novellas, and novels have been influenced by changes in general culture toward immediate gratification and information by short 'sound bites'?

No one now would attempt to write a novel starting as Bulwer-Lytton started "It was a dark and stormy night..." The length of descriptive prose passages in Victorian novels can be very daunting when displayed on screen, and even printed on a page. People can read and enjoy the Victorian novelists but they require a different approach from most moderns. I can appreciate harpsicord music. I can also appreciate a driving bass guitar playing hard rock. But I listen to both in a different way. I think there is a parallel with writing. Some of us can enjoy florid Victorian prose AND briefer, crisper modern writing.

When so much else competes to entertain and amuse us, modern novels have to have a more immediate impact that their 19th century counterparts that didn't have to compete with the television channels, the internet and computer games. If it took three weeks to read a three-decker novel, who cared? There wasn't much else to do.

The novella hasn't really taken in the UK. I think of it as a German form of writing. British novellas are often really something else - a series of stories with a common character brought together as a novel length book, or half-hour or hour television scripts turned into prose for the fans.

I think that short stories have been revived by the internet and suit the limitations of display on a screen. Reading War and Peace from a 15 inch monitor would strain the eyes.

Og

 

[Virgin_Whore_Baby]

a perfect short story example: http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=100238

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I would reduce the lower definition of a 'short story' to 50 words.

But I would, wouldn't I?

Is it possible that the length of short stories, of novellas, and novels have been influenced by changes in general culture toward immediate gratification and information by short 'sound bites'?

I tend to agree with one addition, Og. The difference between a short story and a novella originally was based on the length of the printed piece. Three to ten pages for a short story and 20 to 50 for a novella.

The internet changed that. Now the novella is almost unpublishable except on the internet. You either have to do short story compelations or a full Novel.

And I agree about the screen resizing paragraphs. We see paragraphs that are two screen pages long in the Feedback Forum. Impossible. Absolutly impossible.

 

[Verdad]

a perfect short story example: http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=100238

Was this half as funny as it seemed to me or I really need to take a vacation?

 

[Virgin_Whore_Baby]

Was this half as funny as it seemed to me or I really need to take a vacation?

I don't know about everyone else, but I think its fucking hilarious.

 

[Penelope Street]

Was this half as funny as it seemed to me or I really need to take a vacation?

I thought they were funny too.

 

[mountainmommy]

I found this thread very interesting. After reading 10 or 15 stories here (I've only been here a couple of days) I was about ready to give up. Most of the stories here can be condensed down to.

In. Out. In. Out. In. Out. etc- ad nauseum

On the other hand, I understand that the average short story reader is not interested in who these people are, how they got here, and what their favorite colors are.

I used to be a big fan of "Herotica". Most of the stories there never mentioned bra sizes or penis sizes, and often didn't mention anatomical details at all. More emphasis on sex, and less on biological details and measurements.

Maybe we should have a story category here where we don't use anatomical descriptions, other than identifying gender.

 

[Kate.E]

A short story, by definition cannot exceed 6,000 words - whether erotic or not, as it bores you to death and is no longer 'short'.

Novels are totally different - like a badly written and directed erotic film. Novels can't hold their own, as tee hee, there are ups and downs in pace, when the average lit reader wants a cheap wank/climax and can't be arsed to follow a classical story structure. Anything more is a cross-genre novel - smut/porn/'erotica' cannot hold a reader's attention towards a structural 'climax' as we know it.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

- I, myself find reading an erotic short story beyond 7,500 words (10,000 words
being my limit) exhausting.
- Readers of short erotica want to be turned on more immediately.

Anyhow, feel free to comment, add and debate.

When you say turned on more immediately, this seems to imply a novel can't start with sex, or have it occur with frequent regularity. Perhaps I've misinterpreted your statement.

I personally find writing a novel far easier than writing a short story, as do most of the authors I know. I have published one short, but only because it's a follow-up to a pre-existing world.

I don't think I could write a short story from nothing. I started one on here ages ago. It turned into a novel pretty quickly.

 

[Softouch911]

I write both. Just last week had a short story accepted for an anthology, but 10k words was the minimum acceptable. Mine was 14000 words + a bit more.

Publishers usually call things under 5000 words by some descriptive like "short shorts." ONe place I submit calls fiction shorter than 7000 words "nuggets" and isn't publishing them because in e-format they weren't selling as well as the longer form which they insist is the "short story." The novel, a number of publishers insist, is over 60k and usually 80-100k.

Interestingly, it's hard to get anything published over 100k because of the costs involved. REaders don't want to pay what it would cost to paper, print, and bind a long novel such as the sort I used to love 10 or 15 years ago.

I hope this isn't beside the point. If so, apologies.

 

[Remy_James]

A short story to me is something that is usually a one-shot, a self contained glimpse into the life of someone else which you may or may not dare to tread on your own. A novel on the other hand establishes and tries to convince the reader, instead of allowing a glimpse you get into the main protagonists head and really understand what makes them click.

For erotica, I think some author get caught up in their fantasies and when trying to keep within the boundaries of a short story. I think as long as the story is entertaining, enthralling, and serves it's purpose then it's perfectly acceptable.

The real "versus" lies within the reader. Some want a quick thrill, others want a vivid world they can slip into and get lost. Neither is "better" per se, but the differences are significant.

 

[Pure]

Interview with J. Lahiri: Does size matter?

INTERVIEW: JHUMPA LAHIRI
TheStar.com | entertainment | Why size doesn't matter in fiction

Why size doesn't matter in fiction


Saying short stories are just as weighty as novels, celebrated writer Jhumpa Lahiri returns to her first love

Apr 14, 2008 04:30 AM
Vit Wagner
Publishing Reporter

Jhumpa Lahiri is gracious and sensible enough to take a compliment for what it is. But when it comes to praise for her consummate skill as a writer of short stories, the commendations sometimes sound somewhat grudging or qualified.

"I meet a lot of people who say, `I really don't like short stories. But I like yours,'" she says. "They mean it as a compliment, but it's like, `I don't like anchovies, but on your pizza they're okay.'

"In the wider world, there is a terrible hierarchy that people have between stories and novels. There is a sense that bigger is better and smaller is a diminutive, lesser thing. It's maddening to me because I don't understand it. I just think that if one is a serious reader of fiction, that argument doesn't really hold very much water because some of the most remarkable works of fiction are short."

Lahiri, like a lot of fiction writers, started out by publishing short stories. The stunning Interpreter of Maladies, published in 2000, won both the Pulitzer Prize and the PEN/Hemingway Award.

Then, also like many fiction writers, Lahiri followed up that debut with a novel: in this case 2003's The Namesake, which endured for nearly a year on the New York Times bestseller list and was later made into a popular film directed by Mira Nair and starring Kal Penn.

Now, however, the 40-year-old author has broken with the customary pattern by returning to short fiction with Unaccustomed Earth, a collection of eight longish short stories, the last three of which are loosely linked.

"A lot of writers treat the short story as a stepping stone or apprentice work," says Lahiri, who has a public reading April 22 at Harbourfront Centre's Brigantine Room. "Then they spend the rest of their lives writing novels, as if they've mastered the short story and moved beyond it. I never feel that it's something that I'll master or that it was a means to an end."

If it's true that readers harbour a reticence for short stories, more than a few seem willing to make an exception in the case of Lahiri. Yesterday, Unaccustomed Earth debuted atop the New York Times bestseller list. "It's hard to remember the last genuinely serious, well-written work of fiction – particularly a book of stories – that leapt straight to No. 1," writes Dwight Garner, senior editor of the paper's book section. "It's a powerful demonstration of Lahiri's newfound commercial clout."

Lahiri, the daughter of Bengali immigrants, was born in London and raised in Rhode Island, where her father still works as a university librarian. At one point, she was on an academic track, having earned a PhD in renaissance literature from Boston University.

"That seemed like a typical, normal, reasonable thing to do with one's life: to earn a PhD, get a teaching job, get tenure, be in that rhythm of life," she says. "But then something began to give way.

"When I was still in graduate school, the creative side of me started to come to the fore and eventually took over. By the time I had a book in the world, very few people knew I wrote fiction. Even most of my best friends had very little idea I was writing stories on the weekend when I had nothing else to do."

Lahiri, who lives in New York with her husband and two young children, has used her fiction to explore transitions, both cultural and individual. She began by writing about her parents' generation, the stories in Interpreter of Maladies often bridging the cultural divide between the U.S. and India. The Namesake, viewed through its male protagonist Gogol, focuses more closely on the assimilationist pull experienced by the U.S.-born children of those same immigrants. In Unaccustomed Earth, the page turns to another chapter, the Gogols of the world now settled into adulthood as working professionals and parents in their own right.

"They are approaching middle age," Lahiri says. "And they can see both the eventual dying off of their parents' generation and the bringing into the world of the next generation. That personal journey is yet another way for these characters to feel between worlds."

The last three stories, filling roughly a third of the book's 331 pages, feature recurring characters. It's possible to imagine the three narratives reconfigured as a novel, but it never occurred to Lahiri to write it that way.

"I was doing something that Alice Munro and Mavis Gallant have done. It's something that I've loved about their work: to have stories that play off of one another but are also distinct as stories. I never thought about linking them into a whole thing and calling it a novella or anything like that."

Jhumpa Lahiri and Toronto author Michael Ondaatje will read from their current works, as part of Harbourfront Centre's International Readings, April 22 at the Brigantine Room