The Sword & Sorcery appreciation thread

[StillStunned]

I grew up reading some wonderful fantasy stories. Earthsea, Prydain, various books by Diana Wynn Jones, Alan Garner's "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen" and "The Moon of Gomrath", Tove Jansson's Moomin books, and of course Tolkien. Later I discovered Shannara (whatever complaints people have about those books now, at the time they were groundbreaking), John Carter of Mars and then Dragonlance. In the 1990s came the big fantasy explosion, with Terry Pratchett and Robert Jordan and George RR Martin and Tad Williams dominating the scene. Looking back, it was a magical time.

But somewhere in my mid-teens I discovered Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, and then RE Howard's original Conan stories. Perhaps I was becoming a bit jaded with good-v-evil and noble-heroes-and-pure-heroines-overcome-personal-issues-and-still-manage-to-find-happiness-and-save-the-world-along-the-way. Or maybe I was growing up and realising that the world was a pretty nasty place, not like the fantasy worlds that had been my refuge growing up.

Either way, there was something about the simpler, more selfish worlds of the Sword & Sorcery branch of fantasy that's stuck with me. The characters feel more real. You can feel the dirt under their nails, taste the stale wine on their lips, smell the stink of their cities. You can relate to their motives - mostly just wanting to get to the end of the day slightly better off than they were when they woke up.

This grittiness translates well to erotica, I think. There's no conflict between high-minded heroes with their gaze on the heavens and the physical desires of a sex story. When the characters are down-to-earth, it doesn't take much to get them rolling around in the muck.

So this thread is for all us lovers of Sword & Sorcery. Let's get into arguments about which are the best stories, and which the most disappointing, and where the line is between S&S and generic fantasy. Let's share our tips and tricks and critique each other's stories.

So toss back that cup of wine, leave the comely tavern owner with a handful of silver and a slap on their rump, grab your sword and join me for an adventure!

 

[StillStunned]

I'll start. REH's Conan is perhaps the definitive S&S. But the so-called pastiches (AKA fan-fic) are pretty grim. The biggest disappointment for me were probably Robert Jordan's Conan stories. Mid-nineties, when The Wheel of Time was what every fantasy fan was reading, I stumbled across his six novels and was over the moon.

Boy, were they bad. It was as if he'd just missed everything that made Conan S&S. They were on a par with the Dungeons & Dragons books that were being churned out at the time. One of them was in fact the novelisation of "Conan the Destroyer", which brings the comparison full circle, seeing as that's often considered to be a pretty spot-on D&D movie.

 

[ElectricBlue]

The Worm Ouroborous.

If you don't know it, you're only pretending to know Sword and Sorcery. First published in 1922, the book describes a perpetual war between King Gorice of Witchland and the Lords of Demonland in an imaginary world that appears mainly medieval and partly reminiscent of Norse sagas. Lots of high mountains with snow.

When victory is won, they all get bored with not fighting, so the cycle starts all over again, hence the name of the book, the worm that eats its own tail.

For me, the other masterpiece is Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast Trilogy, published between 1946 and 1959. For imagination and story, I find they walk all over Tolkein and his ilk. I discovered the books when I was sixteen, Fuschia's age when the book opens. She was my second literary crush (the first being Susan, in the Narnia books).

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I'm actually working on a Conan pastiche right now. Not ready for any more detailed discussion just yet. I hope it isn't "grim".

You really can't go wrong with Fritz Leiber.

-Eddie

 

[AlinaX]

Saberhagen's books of swords had a huge impact on me at a young age, along with Lord of the Rings and various others. For magic rather than swords, Lyndon Hardy's trilogy was (and still is) unmatched. In later years, Kate Elliott was a firm favourite.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Gilgamesh, the labors of Hercules, and Beowulf all have significant impact on the genre IMO, and if can get past the translation-of-translation funkiness all are interesting stories, as well.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

D’oh - how could I forget Journey to the West that brings us the Monkey King? I’m sure there are many others I’m missing, too…

 

[karina_jayde]

It's one of my favorite subgenres of fantasy, and have dabbled with it a little here, with a few stories that are basically Red Sonja if she had a dick, lol https://www.literotica.com/series/se/the-tales-of-krajali

I kind of had a roundabout exposure to the genre, via watching the Conan movies as a kid, and then getting into the Elric novels after hearing about their influence on A Song of Ice and Fire. I've read most of the Conan stories but I personally found Elric more compelling as a protagonist.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I'll add the Riftwar Cycle by Raymond E. Feist to the list of great fantasy. It bridges the gap between sci-fi and fantasy so perfectly, you don't realize it until your neck deep in that world.

Also the Guardians of the Flame series, by the late Joel Rosenberg. It was about a group of role-players who find themselves in a fantasy world and immediately find out that it's no game. A great series.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

My vote goes to Heinlein’s Glory Road, with its very human hero, delicious heroine and decent sidekick. (Bonus points that the MFC is powerful and brilliant in herself - no simpering ice-maiden princess, her!)

Oh, sidebar. So long as somebody has mentioned Beowulf, I get to salute John Gardiner’s amazing Grendel.

Best

Anihero

Ever.

 

[AchtungNight]

Don’t forget the many great video games in the genre. Golden Axe, Dragon Age series, Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous & Kingmaker, Dragon’s Lair, Final Fantasy series, The Witcher series, and many more.

 

[onehitwanda]

Roger Zelazny's "Chronicles of Amber" is an often-forgotten gem in the genre.

 

[StillStunned]

Roger Zelazny's "Chronicles of Amber" is an often-forgotten gem in the genre.

I tried, I really tried, but I just couldn't get into them.

 

[shelleycat1]

Seconding the Worm Orubourus. A flawed book (the initial setup is just forgotten after it’s done.) Has parts that are probably overwritten: climbing the mountain to get the egg I thought was overlong. But it is made by the flawed and brilliant villian, always fated to fight for the losing side.

 

[shelleycat1]

No one else has mentioned Andre Norton and the Witch World series. I loved those .

 

[lovecraft68]

First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are my favorites, stay the hell away from the third which came out years later, its just an awful money grab.

The Belgariad (5 book series) is excellent, but again, if you enjoyed it, don't go near the Mallorean follow up. It shits all over everything in the first

Guess Donaldson and Eddings created the new Hollywood formula of everything from the past should be treated like trash before Hollywood did.

ETA can't talk about this genre without Howard's Conan.

 

[StillStunned]

Lots of suggestions here that I wouldn't ever have thought as classifying as S&S. Where do we all put the line between S&S and "general" fantasy?

For me, S&S is about shades of grey, and protagonists who are more concerned with themselves than the world at large. Magic is undefined, but generally carries a cost, and generally the protagonist is pitted against supernatural powers, with only their will, wits and physical abilities to help them. A protagonist might use small magics, but powerful sorcery is reserved for antagonists and sometimes a mysterious patron.

 

[Blind_Justice]

Heh. I've written two S&S stories - Red Tsonia & The Witch In The Dark and Red Tsonia & The Jungles Of Madness (both together with LoquiSordidaAdMe). As the name implies, they're homages to one of Howards lesser-known characters. One could argue that "Twin Suns Of Atlantis - Dorgon" might also qualify but purists might scoff at the heavy Sci-Fi elements. On the other hand, Wagner's Kane played with similar elements and he's definitely classified as S&S.

I'd say that Moorcock's Elric stories fall neatly within the genre. And I have a sweet spot in my heart for the Raven - Swordmistress of Chaos books. They aren't exactly good stories, but they've had a lasting impact on me thanks to the truly amazing amount of smut in them, probably as much as R.A. Salvatore's "Dark Elf" books. Also, whoever badmouthed the D&D novels - get off my fucking lawn! They might not be high literature, but at least for me they were fantastic escapism and highly entertaining.

 

[HordHolm]

Lots of suggestions here that I wouldn't ever have thought as classifying as S&S. Where do we all put the line between S&S and "general" fantasy?

I think the blurred lines between the two are deeply historic - if we look at our ancestors' concept of fantasy it's pretty much all Sword and Sorcery; Homer, Beowulf, the Arthurian legends, it all falls into this kind of category, and whilst we might have something like Gulliver's Travels to balance it, this kind of fantasy is very much in the minority (and considered 'children's' for patronising reasons). So, until relatively recently Fantasy was S&S, and it's only when we get to a more critical 20th Century mindset that we start to see Fantasy also mirroring our own questioning of the status quo.

 

[SimonDoom]

Oh, sidebar. So long as somebody has mentioned Beowulf, I get to salute John Gardiner’s amazing Grendel.

Best

Anihero

Ever.

You beat me to it. Grendel was a brilliant idea, well executed. Beowulf from the monsters point of view.

 

[HordHolm]

The other blurring is in Science Fiction - how much of that is really a 'space opera' extension of Sword & Sorcery tropes? Star Wars is the prime example of this - lightsabres, the Force, a quest to save a princess and overthrow an evil tyrant (who is basically a witch-king), a lost scion rediscovering his heritage, a liminal zone where the hero must discover himself and his abilities through an altering 'test' that functions as a 'coming of age'... the list goes on.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

... And I have a sweet spot in my heart for the Raven - Swordmistress of Chaos books. They aren't exactly good stories, but they've had a lasting impact on me thanks to the truly amazing amount of smut in them, probably as much as R.A. Salvatore's "Dark Elf" books ...

If you want smutty sword-and-sorcery, consider Vardeman and Milan's War of Powers series.

-Annie

 

[shelleycat1]

I always thought Star Wars was a Western story, basically. I remember it with affection because I bunked off from a lecture to go and see it; the only time I ever cut a lecture.

To not derail: I think it is very hard to distinguish SF, fantasy and S&S. I am watching “The voyage of the Dawn Treader” as I type. Swords, magic, heros, a quest, a redemption arc. Where do you put that?

And going back even earlier. “The well at the World’s End” by William Morris (yes, the wallpaper, fabric maker, and artist William Morris). In that book the quest is the story, the hero growing through the quest.

 

[SimonDoom]

The thread wouldn't be complete without a shout out to DEN, the comic strip series featured in Heavy Metal magazine in the 70s that featured an ordinary guy who found a way to be transported into a medieval fantasy world as a nude, muscled, well-endowed man who battled monsters. It featured full-frontal nudity, both male and female, which made quite an impression on a teen boy. I've long thought about creating a story world based on a similar concept, probably one where ordinary characters enter a virtual reality world that's like an erotic version of Middle-earth and become erotically-charged warriors fighting evil and having sex at every turn.

 

[Bamagan]

The thread wouldn't be complete without a shout out to DEN, the comic strip series featured in Heavy Metal magazine in the 70s that featured an ordinary guy who found a way to be transported into a medieval fantasy world as a nude, muscled, well-endowed man who battled monsters. It featured full-frontal nudity, both male and female, which made quite an impression on a teen boy. I've long thought about creating a story world based on a similar concept, probably one where ordinary characters enter a virtual reality world that's like an erotic version of Middle-earth and become erotically-charged warriors fighting evil and having sex at every turn.

I've had something like that in my WIP folder for ages. A maladjusted antisocial nerdy guy somehow transports four women he desires from school into a sex-parody fantasy world pastiche. The idea was that they'd succumb to their various temptations and have lewd adventures before 'defeating' his evil sorcerer persona, but I've never got it into a shape I like.

I'll second @AlinaX about Saberhagen's Swords books, which seem to be pretty obscure now. I also loved the Myth series by Robert Asprin, although tonally it might not be very similar to what a lot of people consider S&S.