The Sword & Sorcery appreciation thread

[AlinaX]

Loved Asprin's myths.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Loved Asprin's myths.

Yeah, his baby dragon was awesome, once he had a PoV section of the series.

 

[StillStunned]

On to some S&S here on Lit. Let's share some stories by other authors we've enjoyed.

Zar Ch. 01: The Golden Cock and its sequels by @AlinaX are great fun. I haven't got round to reading the others in the same world though.

 

[AlinaX]

That's very kind of you. It was written as a standalone quintet, but expanding the universe has been fun. I really need to find a way now to tie up all the threads I've left dangling.

 

[StillStunned]

That's very kind of you. It was written as a standalone quintet, but expanding the universe has been fun. I really need to find a way now to tie up all the threads I've left dangling.

I don't recall anything dangling after I read those first stories.

 

[AlinaX]

Well, yes and no. The end of the Zar tale left something to be desired.

Hanwe is a major character in Perliss, and Zar and Jien make appearances there too. Also the wizard with the golden cock. And the Chapter 5 of Perliss leads into Chapter 5 of the Maze, and they're all sailing west to Atlantis... which is where the gods descended in Vale Chapter 7, and then there are the three witches... so, yes, dangling threads, lol.

 

[StillStunned]

I've just started rereading some of the very earliest sword & sorcery: Robert E Howard's "Solomon Kane" series. The writing isn't as sophisticated as with Conan, but the stories are very powerful, and the Early Modern setting and the protagonist's Puritan background are an interesting break from fantasy worlds and muscled barbarians.

I'll admit that Solomon Kane was a big source of inspiration for my WIP "Demon Hunters", set in the Black Forest during the Thirty Years' War.

 

[ChloeTzang]

And nobody has mentioned Marian Zimmer Bradley and the Darkover novellas and stories. Grew up reading those.

And what about Gotrek and Felix? The best of the warhammer novels LOL. Love Gotrek and Felix!!!!!

And Robert E Howard.....Solomon Kane was great. My favorites Howard character.

 

[StillStunned]

And nobody has mentioned Marian Zimmer Bradley and the Darkover novellas and stories. Grew up reading those.

And what about Gotrek and Felix? The best of the warhammer novels LOL. Love Gotrek and Felix!!!!!

And Robert E Howard.....Solomon Kane was great. My favorites Howard character.

It's been a while since I read MZB. I know she's known mostly for her Avalon books - and the nastiness in her private life - but I enjoyed some of the Sword & Sorceress anthologies she edited. Not that I could get my hands on many back in the day, unfortunately.

I really like Solomon Kane, even though the writing isn't as good as Conan. Like I mentioned above, the setting is unusual for S&S - but it could just have easily become the default, if REH had continued along that route.

 

[ChloeTzang]

It's been a while since I read MZB. I know she's known mostly for her Avalon books - and the nastiness in her private life - but I enjoyed some of the Sword & Sorceress anthologies she edited. Not that I could get my hands on many back in the day, unfortunately.

Yeah, I try and ignore her private life and just enjoy her books - I never liked the Avalon ones at all - it was the Darkover ones I enjoyed right from the first one I ran into (The Shattered Chain, I think it was) - I ended up picking up every one of them that she wrote herself in the end.

I really like Solomon Kane, even though the writing isn't as good as Conan. Like I mentioned above, the setting is unusual for S&S - but it could just have easily become the default, if REH had continued along that route.

Yes, I really enjoy all the Kane ones. Really wish he'd stuck around longer and written more. But in the end, all his stories were good and he certainly came up with some memorable characters.

As for the rest, there are quite a few good ones, but Fritz Leiber's S&S books I love. Gotrek and Felix are great - the ones by William King - totally enjoyable, light and trite by fun. I'm more sci-fi than fantasy, but I love the good sword and sorcery writers.

 

[Naughtylit81]

How have the Gor novels not been mentiomed. Sword, scorcery and as they go on softcore porn.

 

[StillStunned]

How have the Gor novels not been mentiomed. Sword, scorcery and as they go on softcore porn.

I could have sworn I'd seen Gor mentioned upthread, but apparently not. Then again, this is the S&S *appreciation* thread...

I read Tarnsman of Gor last year, and honestly it didn't convince me I needed to read the rest of the series.

 

[Naughtylit81]

I could have sworn I'd seen Gor mentioned upthread, but apparently not. Then again, this is the S&S *appreciation* thread...

I read Tarnsman of Gor last year, and honestly it didn't convince me I needed to read the rest of the series.

It is definately a series that shows its age, which given the the first book was published in 1968 is going to predate a lot but not all of the literotica members.

I would say it appeals to aspects of the BDSM and CNC kinks specifically. Which may or may not be a selling point for some people as well and further drive its relative obscurity.

I read through the first few because a woman I was have a fling with really liked them and so it gave us something to talk about.

 

[NaughteeDragon]

For great ‘down and dirty’ heroes I highly recommend David Gemmel’s Druss the Legend and Waylander books.

 

[Orcwords]

I've read a lot of the books mentioned and I'm really not sure how many of them are actually "Sword and Sorcery," no matter how much I like or liked them. Two series I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet are John Jakes', "Brak the Barbarian," and Lin Carter's "Thongor of Lemuria," both of which are definitely Sword and Sorcery. Also, where's C.L. Moore's Jirel of Joiry? As for the Gor books, I'd put them in Sword and Planet--like Burroughs' Mars books and Kline's Venus books.

 

[NaughteeDragon]

If you want to take a more modern spin, Dan the Barbarian by Hondo Jinx has that classic cheesy over-the-top S&S style with a harem. It’s a fun series.

 

[ChasBozwell30]

Loved a lot of the OP's suggestions. Would throw in Mythago Wood. The Elric books were quite interesting, and The Book of the New Sun novels have a sort of skewed post apocalyptic fantasy feel.

I always loved the 80s fantasy movies. Excalibur. Krull. Dragonslayer, etc. Always felt dark and dangerous. Grimy, and sexy in their own ways. They were simplistic to begin with, but the deeper in you got, the twistier the stories became...

 

[NaughteeDragon]

I always loved the 80s fantasy movies. Excalibur. Krull. Dragonslayer, etc. Always felt dark and dangerous. Grimy, and sexy in their own ways. They were simplistic to begin with, but the deeper in you got, the twistier the stories became...

My favorite of those was Beastmaster. I probably saw that 20 of 30 times because it was HBO at least once a day in the mid-80’s.

And now I have a fucking plot bunny where the “beasts” are monster girl shapeshifters. Fuck.

 

[StillStunned]

I remember a movie called something like "Ator the Invincible", where they had the hero working out with an improvised gym. But the budget apparently wasn't enough to cover the cost of horses, so they had to run everywhere.

Somewhere I have the complete set of Conan with Ralf Moeller. So bad that I never made it past the first episode.

 

[ChasBozwell30]

My favorite of those was Beastmaster. I probably saw that 20 of 30 times because it was HBO at least once a day in the mid-80’s.

And now I have a fucking plot bunny where the “beasts” are monster girl shapeshifters. Fuck.

I remember loving Beastmaster when i was younger, haven't seen it in many years!

The best thing about all those movies, is they played it all seriously. There was humour, but it never came at the cost of he world or the story. Too many fantasy films seemed keen to wink at the camera, to fight the story they were trying to tell...

 

[UsuallyPresent]

I remember loving Beastmaster when i was younger, haven't seen it in many years!

The best thing about all those movies, is they played it all seriously. There was humour, but it never came at the cost of he world or the story. Too many fantasy films seemed keen to wink at the camera, to fight the story they were trying to tell...

It's part of the mainstreaming of fantasy, as audiences are reassured they're "in on the joke" rather than following along with the tale like the geeks and nerds. *wry grin*

 

[Belegon]

The Worm Ouroborous.

If you don't know it, you're only pretending to know Sword and Sorcery. First published in 1922, the book describes a perpetual war between King Gorice of Witchland and the Lords of Demonland in an imaginary world that appears mainly medieval and partly reminiscent of Norse sagas. Lots of high mountains with snow.

When victory is won, they all get bored with not fighting, so the cycle starts all over again, hence the name of the book, the worm that eats its own tail.

For me, the other masterpiece is Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast Trilogy, published between 1946 and 1959. For imagination and story, I find they walk all over Tolkein and his ilk. I discovered the books when I was sixteen, Fuschia's age when the book opens. She was my second literary crush (the first being Susan, in the Narnia books).

Read Ouroboros in college, due to taking a course that focused on "alternative literature." Good course, introduced me to several authors and settings I might never have found otherwise. Although I read the Lord of the Rings in middle school and was already a huge Heinlein fan by then.

I'll add the Riftwar Cycle by Raymond E. Feist to the list of great fantasy. It bridges the gap between sci-fi and fantasy so perfectly, you don't realize it until your neck deep in that world.

Ray was a guest lecturer at that course and I have a first edition trade paperback of Magician he signed for me that night. Interesting for those that are bringing up D and D, Feist's entry into fantasy was through Dungeons and Dragons and he and his group of friends actually published a few modules early in the eighties. I sought them out and purchased a couple, though I unfortunately have no idea where they are now. But Midkemia started out as a Dn'D world setting. https://www.midkemia.com/

 

[StillStunned]

In a conversation with another author here, I made the following comment about worldbuilding:

"I've played D&D for forty years, and one thing I've learned is that people don't care about any part of the setting they're not interacting with. Also, with sword & sorcery in particular, you don't need an overarching theme. You can create a new setting for each story, and it just adds depth and history to the world."

I think this is perhaps another feature of stories that I personally consider S&S: the limited geographic scope. Not that authors don't develop their worlds - REH for example had a complete history of his world, and explored different cities and countries - but the individual stories are concerned with a much smaller area.

But then all those small areas add up and create a richer tapestry than a prebuilt world often has. Each ruin, each buried civilisation, each corrupt and rotten city makes the world feel more alive and more tangible. A fictional fantasy world that's built around a theme can often feel stylised, shallow and sterile. "In this country, everyone is a sheep farmer. In that city they all use nautical metaphors. These elves all hate dwarves and have beautiful hair." There's little effort to define these places once their role in the greater plot has been established.

So here's StillStunned's paradox of fantasy worldbuilding: the less worldbuilding you do, the more real your world will feel.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

In a conversation with another author here, I made the following comment about worldbuilding:

"I've played D&D for forty years, and one thing I've learned is that people don't care about any part of the setting they're not interacting with. Also, with sword & sorcery in particular, you don't need an overarching theme. You can create a new setting for each story, and it just adds depth and history to the world."

I think this is perhaps another feature of stories that I personally consider S&S: the limited geographic scope. Not that authors don't develop their worlds - REH for example had a complete history of his world, and explored different cities and countries - but the individual stories are concerned with a much smaller area.

But then all those small areas add up and create a richer tapestry than a prebuilt world often has. Each ruin, each buried civilisation, each corrupt and rotten city makes the world feel more alive and more tangible. A fictional fantasy world that's built around a theme can often feel stylised, shallow and sterile. "In this country, everyone is a sheep farmer. In that city they all use nautical metaphors. These elves all hate dwarves and have beautiful hair." There's little effort to define these places once their role in the greater plot has been established.

So here's StillStunned's paradox of fantasy worldbuilding: the less worldbuilding you do, the more real your world will feel.

To some degree, yes, but also no. Suspenders of Disbelief tend to sting a bit if they get snapped, and one of the easiest ways to snap 'em is internal inconsistencies. If you state "All dwarves have beards" and then later introduce a beardless dwarf without backstory, your audience - your players - might flip the table if they notice. (Not all would notice, 'course)

This *can* be a good way to increase immersion, however, if you've a good backstory ready for why THIS dwarf is beardless.

My rule of thumb is, "Keep your lies consistent." This is true in running a game as well.

 

[StillStunned]

Well, consistency is always a given in fiction. And like you say, it offers countless hooks.

But I don't think consistency should be used as a shortcut for characterisation. If you're going to say that all dwarves have beards, why is that? Do their beards function like a cat's whiskers, like in Artemis Fowl, to help the dwarf sense tremors underground? Or are dwarves actually made of stone, and their beards are lichens that grow on them?