Tolkien Fans: Comments and Questions

[SimonDoom]

There are many Tolkien fans and nerds in this forum, and many previous threads that have discussed his works, but I thought I'd start a thread anyway to give people an opportunity to ask questions or offer opinions on his work.

I read LOTR in 1976, 50 years ago. Been a fan and nerd ever since.

Here's a question I have: How did Gandalf and Elrond know how to destroy the One Ring? They somehow knew you could only destroy it by casting it into the fires of Mount Doom, but how did they know that? As far as we know, Sauron forged the ring by himself, and it doesn't make sense that he would put in writing how to destroy it. I can't imagine that Gandalf or Elrond found a scroll in the Minas Tirith archives somewhere where Sauron or some other witness wrote, "Just in case anybody wants to destroy the ring, here's how you do it."

 

[lovecraft68]

There are many Tolkien fans and nerds in this forum, and many previous threads that have discussed his works, but I thought I'd start a thread anyway to give people an opportunity to ask questions or offer opinions on his work.

I read LOTR in 1976, 50 years ago. Been a fan and nerd ever since.

Here's a question I have: How did Gandalf and Elrond know how to destroy the One Ring? They somehow knew you could only destroy it by casting it into the fires of Mount Doom, but how did they know that? As far as we know, Sauron forged the ring by himself, and it doesn't make sense that he would put in writing how to destroy it. I can't imagine that Gandalf or Elrond found a scroll in the Minas Tirith archives somewhere where Sauron or some other witness wrote, "Just in case anybody wants to destroy the ring, here's how you do it."

That is a good question, and I have no answer to it other than "reasons"

If I may, I'll toss a question out there. How the hell did Gandalf not know what the ring was when Bilbo first took it from Gollum? Then even after he sees the writing on it in Fellowship of the Ring he still has to run to look it up in all the old books. Maybe this is in the book, but I read them a little after you, maybe 79/80

One thing that I've always been annoyed with is Gandalf basically dying after the fight with the Balrog, then being resurrected 'just because' its one of those cheap "well the good guys have to win so let's make something up' devices I've never liked, almost as bad as in Clash of the Titans when Perseus collapses and Zeus cheats by picking up the clay statue and setting it right when no one is looking.

These things actually started me off on a "Good has to cheat to win" crusade I still revisit from time to time.

 

[BeechLeaf]

I suppose I've always assumed that volcano is the only place in Middle-earth hot enough to melt the magical metal: required to cast it, therefore would also do for destroying it.

 

[HordHolm]

That is a good question, and I have no answer to it other than "reasons"

If I may, I'll toss a question out there. How the hell did Gandalf not know what the ring was when Bilbo first took it from Gollum? Then even after he sees the writing on it in Fellowship of the Ring he still has to run to look it up in all the old books. Maybe this is in the book, but I read them a little after you, maybe 79/80

One thing that I've always been annoyed with is Gandalf basically dying after the fight with the Balrog, then being resurrected 'just because' its one of those cheap "well the good guys have to win so let's make something up' devices I've never liked, almost as bad as in Clash of the Titans when Perseus collapses and Zeus cheats by picking up the clay statue and setting it right when no one is looking.

These things actually started me off on a "Good has to cheat to win" crusade I still revisit from time to time.

I always viewed the Gandalf/Balrog business rather as a metamorphosis than a cheat, though I get it can look that way. I suspect that if we burrowed deep enough into the old Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Irish folktales that Tolkein spent his time mining, we would find an answer (probably in the Irish stuff, would be my guess).

 

[YmaOHyd]

It's not explicit, but I think the answer is they don't. I think they're working off general principles. A couple comments:

Gandalf and Elrond say that even Sauron doesn't know what will happen when the Ring is destroyed, and that in fact he'd believed it was:

He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it.

That suggests to me that the properties of the Ring are more mysterious than generally considered.

Everything the Elves know about Ring-lore and the creation of magic rings comes, in fact, from Sauron, in his guise as Annatar Lord of Gifts; Sauron teaches the smiths of Eregion and Moria to make rings (in the Hobbit and again in Lord of the Rings the existence of other, minor, magic rings is referenced). Presumably the crafting process works on a set of general principles, and the smiths aren't just making it up as as they go along. Celebrimbor doesn't fall for his shit, and presumably neither does Elrond, who's around and important at that time.

They also know a couple pieces of related information: the Ring can't be damaged by force. Gimli proves that when he whacks it with his axe. It can't be damaged by heat: Gandalf says that while dragon-fire could destroy Rings of Power, "there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the one Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."

So if it has to be melted, and not even the fire of the greatest dragon ever to live could do it, what's the one place that might logically be hot enough? The forge where it was made.

 

[RocketGrunt]

Elrond and Gandalf have two of the rings of power between them and have been contemplating this problem for a thousand years. They are well aware of how the One Ring interacts with the rings on their own fingers, and have reasonable certainty that the Mount Doom plan would work.

That being said, the Mount Doom plan was originally hatched in the previous age, in The War of the Last Alliance, meaning that Gandalf and Elrond had a working plan already handed to them by a previous generation of wizards and smiths. So the whole time since then they've just had to double check it.

 

[SimonDoom]

That is a good question, and I have no answer to it other than "reasons"

If I may, I'll toss a question out there. How the hell did Gandalf not know what the ring was when Bilbo first took it from Gollum? Then even after he sees the writing on it in Fellowship of the Ring he still has to run to look it up in all the old books. Maybe this is in the book, but I read them a little after you, maybe 79/80

One thing that I've always been annoyed with is Gandalf basically dying after the fight with the Balrog, then being resurrected 'just because' its one of those cheap "well the good guys have to win so let's make something up' devices I've never liked, almost as bad as in Clash of the Titans when Perseus collapses and Zeus cheats by picking up the clay statue and setting it right when no one is looking.

These things actually started me off on a "Good has to cheat to win" crusade I still revisit from time to time.

I agree with you that the character of Gandalf is a bit of a cheat. He magically shows up to do whatever he has to in order to propel things to the next stage of success. But he's so well-drawn and likable that Tolkien gets away with it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Here's another question: When the fellowship sets off, why don't they take the road through the Misty Mountains that the Dwarves and Bilbo took in The Hobbit, and then proceed down the Anduin through Lorien, and thereby avoid the obvious problem of Saruman?

When the fellowship leaves Rivendell, they have a mission to toss the ring into Mount Doom, but they don't seem to have any clear idea how to get there.

 

[CalBishForNow]

The forge where it was made is logical. Also, Sauron is kind of like the reverse Fisher King. He is one with his land, i.e. Mordor, and its strength grows as his does. The Ring's pull on its bearer is highest in Mordor, but also the Ring's pull on Sauron and Sauron's connection to Mordor. If it could have hypothetically been destroyed far away, maybe if Ancalagon the Black really tried hard or something, it might not have been so devastating to Sauron, but destroying it in the heart of his kingdom also destroyed the heart of that kingdom.

Conversely, the idea that destroying the Ring immediately and literally destroyed Mordor and all Sauron's works was invented by Peter Jackson. In the book, the battle at the Black Gate had started and wasn't going well for the good guys and something suddenly happened and the scene cut away to Frodo and Sam. There was probably an earthquake when the Ring was destroyed, but it was happening in a volcano. A certain amount of instability is expected there. Frodo and Sam fled, the eagles got them, and they woke up days later in the hospital. I'm pretty sure the forces of Mordor were routed because they were dispirited and disorganized by Sauron's fall, but they weren't physically harmed by it.

Whereas in the movie, we got to see the Ring destroyed, and seconds later, the ground swallowed the bad guy's army. I don't think Tolkein made the connection that direct.

 

[EmilyMiller]

How did Gandalf and Elrond know how to destroy the One Ring?

Sauron learned his ring lore from Fëanor (can’t figure out the diacritics). Perhaps the Maia figured some of it out. More practically, if a ‘forge’ is hot enough to form a metal object, it is hot enough to melt it.

 

[TheLobster]

He magically shows up to do whatever he has to in order to propel things to the next stage of success.

He actually doesn’t. The trilogy works on a strict timeline, and Gandalf appears or disappears because he’s busy with other matters (rallying people of ME to defend against Sauron, researching the Ring, etc.).

Indeed, there is one obvious example when he should’ve showed up, but doesn’t: in Bree, when hobbits get there; because he’s been held in captivity by Saruman at that time.

When the fellowship sets off, why don't they take the road through the Misty Mountains that the Dwarves and Bilbo took in The Hobbit, and then proceed down the Anduin through Lorien, and thereby avoid the obvious problem of Saruman?

Saruman spies; the movie shows this pretty dramatically when the whole party hides as a murder of black crows flies over.

 

[Bamagan]

There are references in the book to the Great Rings allowing the bearers to perceive each other's thoughts, and I believe that Galadriel mentions she has some knowledge of Sauron's designs and devices, either because her ring is better at that particular function than the One (which was designed for domination, not knowledge per se) or because she herself is better at that kind of thing (at least while Sauron is ringless). There is also a mention of Celebrimbor being more or less instantly aware of Sauron and what he had done when he first puts on the One Ring, so it's possible he knew all along that the power of the ring was bound up in that way.

As for Gandalf not immediately recognizing the One, I think it was a combination of factors. He apparently knew right away that Bilbo had found a magic ring, presumably because he can sense magic, but either the ring didn't register as particularly powerful because Bilbo couldn't do much with it, or it may have been concealing or misrepresenting itself somehow; it's described as having some degree of intelligence or awareness of its circumstances. The Elves had apparently made quite a few magic rings before they succeeded in creating the Great Rings, so it probably seemed more likely to him that the relatively weak ring Bilbo found was one of those... no reason to assume it was the one zebra right off the bat, so to speak. And it's possible Gandalf assumed that he'd know if it was the One, that he had no idea at that time that it wouldn't be blindingly obvious that he was in the presence of the most powerful weapon in the world. A bit of arrogance that cost them decades of time to prepare, if true.*

As for why they didn't go through the pass near Rivendell, I believe that was because the Orcs living there had gotten strong and numerous again, making it perilous, and avoiding detection in a pass controlled, or at least patrolled, by the agents of the Enemy would have been difficult; they were relying on secrecy to start with. I suppose it's the same basic reason why they didn't ask the Eagles to carry them somewhere: giant eagles are fairly noticeable. On the west side of the mountains they'd be a bit harder to find. Gandalf may have had a suspicion that he'd need to deal with Saruman sooner rather than later, too.

*Edit: I forget at the moment when it happened, but at one of the White Council meetings Saruman claimed that the One was lost in Anduin and rolled down into the sea, which was apparently accepted as fact by the rest of them, at least in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Possibly they all believed that they'd be able to recognize the power of the ring if they ever happened to get close to it. I think Gandalf even says that Saruman's assurances were partly responsible for him not investigating the matter more thoroughly while Bilbo was retired in the Shire, and that it wasn't until he visited again after a lengthy absence to find Bilbo all but unaged that he realized it couldn't be one of the lesser rings in his possession, since they couldn't prolong life.

 

[SimonDoom]

Sauron learned his ring lore from Fëanor (can’t figure out the diacritics). Perhaps the Maia figured some of it out. More practically, if a ‘forge’ is hot enough to form a metal object, it is hot enough to melt it.

This makes sense. If they knew how Sauron came by his ring-making skills from others they could deduce how the ring could be unmade.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Here's another question: When the fellowship sets off, why don't they take the road through the Misty Mountains that the Dwarves and Bilbo took in The Hobbit, and then proceed down the Anduin through Lorien, and thereby avoid the obvious problem of Saruman?

Because the passes through the Misty Mountains are also very dangerous, and the west side of the Misty Mountains is safer than the east because of Mirkwood and Dol Goldur. So the plan is to go as far south as Dimrill Dale, still north of Rohan, and cross there to the Anduin and Lorien; the further south they can go without getting into the mountains, the safer, because the mountains are full of orcs. The Lonely Mountain is well north of the Shire, and Mordor is very far south. Their plan stops being possible when they realize Sauruman is using flocks of crows and hawks to watch for them.

When the fellowship leaves Rivendell, they have a mission to toss the ring into Mount Doom, but they don't seem to have any clear idea how to get there.

Frodo doesn't know, and it's mostly his point of view at that point. Aragorn and Gandalf each have ideas. Aragorn's plan is to go over the mountains at the Redhorn Gate, Gandalf's is to go through Moria, confusing the enemy via a swift, secret passage under the earth.

 

[onehitwanda]

Here's a question I have: How did Gandalf and Elrond know how to destroy the One Ring? They somehow knew you could only destroy it by casting it into the fires of Mount Doom, but how did they know that? As far as we know, Sauron forged the ring by himself, and it doesn't make sense that he would put in writing how to destroy it. I can't imagine that Gandalf or Elrond found a scroll in the Minas Tirith archives somewhere where Sauron or some other witness wrote, "Just in case anybody wants to destroy the ring, here's how you do it."

Elrond and Cirdan both instructed Isildur to fling the one Ring into Sammath Naur after the Siege of Barad-dûr. From this we can deduce that the method of destroying the One Ring was known to the Noldor, which means that Celebrimbor had probably written about how to destroy it, and these writings might very well have been held in the libraries of Rivendell and Minas Tirith. Almost certainly everone on the White Council would have known these methods.

Gandalf was a Maiar. Presumably the Valar, when they sent him back from the Undying Lands to Middle Earth, gave him a set of cheat sheets.

When the fellowship sets off, why don't they take the road through the Misty Mountains that the Dwarves and Bilbo took in The Hobbit, and then proceed down the Anduin through Lorien, and thereby avoid the obvious problem of Saruman?

The Necromancer (aka Sauron) had a fortress in Mirkwood; taking the Ring of Power into Mirkwood was too great a risk. Also, it would put the Fellowship significantly north of where they wanted to be, while the Nazgûl wer abroad. Taking the path southeast from Rivendell into Hollin put them in old lands of the Noldorim, where the Ringwraiths would be reluctant to tread, and the Dimril Dale and the pass of Caradhras was seen as the less exposed route across the Misty Mountains.

Khazad-dum was then chosen when Saruman blocked the high passes.

There was probably an earthquake when the Ring was destroyed, but it was happening in a volcano. A certain amount of instability is expected there.

In the books, as I recall, Sauron's will wavers when Frodo dons the Ring in Sammath Naur. The Ringwraiths break off and dash for Orodruin, but Gollum siezes the ring and falls into Sammath Naur before they can get there. The greater part of Sauron's power is destroyed, his will is broken, and the malice and intent has has until now been steering his armies is gone. At the same time, the Lords of the West feel a sudden stirring of their hearts. The battle is still hard, but at the last moment the Eagles come and one would guess provide the decisive change in the balance of power.

 

[mirafrida]

One thing that I've always been annoyed with is Gandalf basically dying after the fight with the Balrog, then being resurrected 'just because' its one of those cheap "well the good guys have to win so let's make something up' devices I've never liked, almost as bad as in Clash of the Titans when Perseus collapses and Zeus cheats by picking up the clay statue and setting it right when no one is looking.

There is definitely a deus-ex-machina element to Gandalf's return; yet the way Tolkein handled it, to me, ended up being more thought-provoking than cheat code.

For one thing, I think to Tolkein it was important to try to span the gaps that humanity always tends to struggle with, around the issues of "do we have free will or are we playing parts in a scripted plan" and "are we alone in a cold and unfeeling universe, or is there a greater power which gives a damn about us." In general good stories revolve around the free will of the characters and the importance of what they choose to do or not do. However, in this one moment, I think Tolkein wanted to open a brief window into the idea of something bigger, and the potential for miracles.

The other thing I, personally, liked, was the subtle but effective feeling the text conveys that Gandalf came back as the same person, and yet indelibly different. I thought that was elegant.

 

[mirafrida]

Right now I'm reading The Tower and the Ruin by Michael Drout, which explores how Tolkein achieved (textually, stylistically) the rather uniquely historical feel of The Lord of the Rings. Too soon to say if I think it's a "good book," but there is a lot of food for thought for writers in it, as well as fodder for the Tolkein fan.

 

[BeechLeaf]

All of us, I suppose, came to his world through The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. But he knew it from way back before that, what we later learned from The Silmarillion and so on. When he was writing his two famous books, he was thoroughly familiar with Valar and Maiar. He knew Gandalf the Grey was a Maia. He knew a Maia could not simply be killed by a Balrog, and a long arm could be extended from Valinor.

I've known several people who said they stopped reading the book when Gandalf died. I told them they must persevere. I never told them why, only that they must. Gandalf the White was not a cheap fix at a crux in the book, he was for Tolkien a clear progression of the great fate of his world.

 

[onehitwanda]

Gandalf the White was not a cheap fix at a crux in the book, he was for Tolkien a clear progression of the great fate of his world.

Gandalf the White was Saruman as he should have been. Gandalf the Grey was Mithrandir's chrysalis.

 

[Writer61]

There are many Tolkien fans and nerds in this forum, and many previous threads that have discussed his works, but I thought I'd start a thread anyway to give people an opportunity to ask questions or offer opinions on his work.

I read LOTR in 1976, 50 years ago. Been a fan and nerd ever since.

Here's a question I have: How did Gandalf and Elrond know how to destroy the One Ring? They somehow knew you could only destroy it by casting it into the fires of Mount Doom, but how did they know that? As far as we know, Sauron forged the ring by himself, and it doesn't make sense that he would put in writing how to destroy it. I can't imagine that Gandalf or Elrond found a scroll in the Minas Tirith archives somewhere where Sauron or some other witness wrote, "Just in case anybody wants to destroy the ring, here's how you do it."

IIRC the rings were forged in the fires of Mount Doom, so it is also hot enough to melt them.

 

[StillStunned]

Gandalf the White was Saruman as he should have been. Gandalf the Grey was Mithrandir's chrysalis.

His fight with the Balrog is almost literally a death and rebirth scene: he plunges into darkness, struggles out through a tunnel and is cast naked and helpless into the world.

 

[onehitwanda]

His fight with the Balrog is almost literally a death and rebirth scene: he plunges into darkness, struggles out through a tunnel and is cast naked and helpless into the world.

IIRC He specifically references being sent back until his task is done.

 

[YmaOHyd]

IIRC He specifically references being sent back until his task is done.

Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.

And when Gwaihir the Windlord finds him, he remarks:

"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said

"A burden you have been," he answered, "but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind."

 

[StillStunned]

Here's something that probably few people realise: the significance of rivers as boundaries in Middle Earth. In medieval chivalric romances, crossing a river meant crossing into a different world. Quite often there'll be a reference to the knight's horse stumbling in the water as well.

In LotR, you'll often have the characters crossing a river before a magical encounter or entering a magical realm: starting with the Brandywine River before the enter the Old Forest. There's the Fords of Isen before the encounter with Saruman. The Ford of Bruinen before entering Rivendell. And so on.

 

[caleb35]

This makes sense. If they knew how Sauron came by his ring-making skills from others they could deduce how the ring could be unmade.

It's been ages since I've read this (pun intended) but I presume that there are some basic rules of magical ring-making that the wizards and the high elves knew, among them being that a ring can be un-forged (destroyed) in the forge where it was first created.