Tolkien Fans: Comments and Questions

[SimonDoom]

I think the reason Sam was elected Mayor is because of the active and visible role he took in restoring all the destroyed trees and landmarks of the Shire. Merry and Pippin were responsible for chasing down all the remaining outsiders after the battle of Bywater, but to the Hobbits of Hobbiton and Bywater it was probably Sam who got the most recognition.

I like that theory. I imagine the success of the mallorn tree was a plus. Big tree, good mayor.

 

[Bamagan]

I like that theory. I imagine the success of the mallorn tree was a plus. Big tree, good mayor.

"Let's elect 'im Mayor! 'E's rich, and 'e's got yuge mornin' wood! What's that, eh? 'Mallorn wood?' Never 'eard of it!"

 

[Bamagan]

Here's something to ponder: Galadriel's gift to Sam.
There are no rules for how Elvish 'magic' works, at least not outside of supplementary material for games that can't reasonably be considered canon, even if the game designers were fans and tried to capture and expand on examples from the books. So, we can only speculate on the effect the gift would have had if Sam had used it only on his own garden, as Galadriel mentioned. Presumably, he'd have had huge taters and whatever else. But probably not enough to feed the whole Shire.
I like to think that his mostly selfless use of the gift (he concentrated on the area he grew up in a bit) enhanced the power of the soil beyond what it otherwise could have done. Frodo said he suspected each grain had value, and that was no doubt true, but perhaps the intent of the use mattered as much as the method (spreading it over a wide area to maximize the value, just like regular fertilizer). Certain Elvish artifacts did seem to possibly be responsive to user desires, like the rope that came unknotted when it needed to and not before. A desire to help others and restore the land, plus taking the actions necessary to do so, may have magnified the inherent potency of the magic soil.
Anyway, that's my pet theory.

 

[TheLobster]

Here's something to ponder: Galadriel's gift to Sam.
There are no rules for how Elvish 'magic' works, at least not outside of supplementary material for games that can't reasonably be considered canon, even if the game designers were fans and tried to capture and expand on examples from the books. So, we can only speculate on the effect the gift would have had if Sam had used it only on his own garden, as Galadriel mentioned. Presumably, he'd have had huge taters and whatever else. But probably not enough to feed the whole Shire.
I like to think that his mostly selfless use of the gift (he concentrated on the area he grew up in a bit) enhanced the power of the soil beyond what it otherwise could have done. Frodo said he suspected each grain had value, and that was no doubt true, but perhaps the intent of the use mattered as much as the method (spreading it over a wide area to maximize the value, just like regular fertilizer). Certain Elvish artifacts did seem to possibly be responsive to user desires, like the rope that came unknotted when it needed to and not before. A desire to help others and restore the land, plus taking the actions necessary to do so, may have magnified the inherent potency of the magic soil.
Anyway, that's my pet theory.

It's a sound theory but I wouldn't say that this kind of noble intentionality is a facet of Elvish magic in general. Based on LotR alone, it is easy to fall into thinking that Elves == good, but a quick flipping through Silmarillion is bound to disabuse one from such notions.

Rather, I suspect that this additional nourishing aspect of Galadriel's gift to Sam stems from Galadriel herself, or perhaps from her Ring (which is said to be of much use when it came to preserving and nurturing Lothlorien, while she still abided there). Do we know anything about what happened to the plants, or to this patch of lands, once the Elves and the Rings of Power left Middle-earth? It's probably too small a detail to have been recorded by Tolkien, but it's interesting to think whether it may have wilted sooner, before the rest of the Shire faded into obscurity during the subsequent centuries of the Fourth Age.

 

[Bramblethorn]

 

[Bamagan]

View attachment 2603517

I guess the Ring is as bad at statistics as most people.
"This world has like a dozen intelligent races, surely the next person that finds me has to be a different species!"
Although to be fair, it fell off in a cave mostly inhabited by orcs/goblins, so perhaps it's not entirely unreasonable for the Ring to 'expect' to be found by one of those (if it was intelligent and aware enough to think that way).

 

[Bamagan]

It's a sound theory but I wouldn't say that this kind of noble intentionality is a facet of Elvish magic in general. Based on LotR alone, it is easy to fall into thinking that Elves == good, but a quick flipping through Silmarillion is bound to disabuse one from such notions.

Rather, I suspect that this additional nourishing aspect of Galadriel's gift to Sam stems from Galadriel herself, or perhaps from her Ring (which is said to be of much use when it came to preserving and nurturing Lothlorien, while she still abided there). Do we know anything about what happened to the plants, or to this patch of lands, once the Elves and the Rings of Power left Middle-earth? It's probably too small a detail to have been recorded by Tolkien, but it's interesting to think whether it may have wilted sooner, before the rest of the Shire faded into obscurity during the subsequent centuries of the Fourth Age.

I didn't say nobility or goodness were facets of Elvish magic. Sam's intent was selfless and kind, and it magnified that (if my theory is true, anyway). I doubt Galadriel was doing anything 'additional' to whatever arts she used to enhance the soil of her personal garden, if you're suggesting that she was watching Sam's efforts and decided he deserved something extra for being nice.

Are you asking about how long the 'magic' lasted from Sam's replanting efforts? I don't think anything special happened to all the regular trees he planted, aside from the fact that they grew faster than normal. Maybe their life cycle was accelerated and they died faster than normal, too, but probably not before their descendants did, so the reforestation was probably successful even if the first generation of new trees was relatively short-lived. The crops the following year were exceptional (as was the 1420 beer), but presumably it was just that year, although the following ones might still have been better than average (the mention of the hobbit children being yellow-haired and extra-healthy for several years might suggest a gradual diminishment of the effects). The mallorn planted at Bag End was there for a long while, if I recall correctly. I think it was just a normal tree, if exceptionally majestic and exotic for the region, and lived however many decades or centuries was typical for the species (I do not think it was anywhere near the size of the ones in Caras Galadon, though).

 

[Bramblethorn]

Thinking about the colour grey in Tolkien's work. It's not usually considered a happy colour, but for Tolkien it often seems to have good associations.

Gandalf the Grey; the Grey Company, a group of Dúnedain Rangers who come to Aragorn's aid; the Grey Havens, the Elvish port city from where one can sail to the Undying Lands. Elrond's eyes are "grey as a clear evening" and Arwen's are "grey as a cloudless night" along with her "soft grey raiment". The trees of Lothlorien are grey, as are the ropes and (sometimes) the cloaks the Elves give to the Fellowship, and the box of dust that Galadriel gives to Sam.

Not to say that grey is always positive. Old Man Willow has a "grey thirsty spirit", and there are grey days and so on. But I get the feeling that for Tolkien it carries some kind of symbolism of goodness enduring in a harsh world - the Dúnedain and the Elves in particular are holdouts preserving ancient traditions that Sauron has done his best to erode.

 

[Bamagan]

Thinking about the colour grey in Tolkien's work. It's not usually considered a happy colour, but for Tolkien it often seems to have good associations.

Gandalf the Grey; the Grey Company, a group of Dúnedain Rangers who come to Aragorn's aid; the Grey Havens, the Elvish port city from where one can sail to the Undying Lands. Elrond's eyes are "grey as a clear evening" and Arwen's are "grey as a cloudless night" along with her "soft grey raiment". The trees of Lothlorien are grey, as are the ropes and (sometimes) the cloaks the Elves give to the Fellowship, and the box of dust that Galadriel gives to Sam.

Not to say that grey is always positive. Old Man Willow has a "grey thirsty spirit", and there are grey days and so on. But I get the feeling that for Tolkien it carries some kind of symbolism of goodness enduring in a harsh world - the Dúnedain and the Elves in particular are holdouts preserving ancient traditions that Sauron has done his best to erode.

I never really thought about that before. I guess it kind of tracks with the idea that the Elves have an affinity for twilight. All colors tend to fade toward grey as darkness approaches.

 

[TheLobster]

Grey occurs a few times in various names, but when it comes to descriptions there is no beating the frequency of the adjective pale.

Literally everything can be pale in Tolkien’s. The sky is pale, the morning is pale, the sun is pale, the water is pale, faces are pale, eyes are pale, stars are pale, and so on and so forth. Once you notice this, you’ll realize there are very few descriptive passages where something isn’t described, one way or another, as pale.