Total Newb Question: BDSM is about sex, right?

[teknight]

Oh, sorry, I thought an experienced pontificator would be worse than an inexperienced pontificator. Interesting point of view - is a bad liar worse than a good liar, too? *ponders*



Why would you care to change your mind anyway? And why would I care about the mind of a jaundiced hag?

You obviously care enough to reply.

 

[Primalex]

You obviously care enough to reply.

Did you figure out now which insults you were talking about before?

And it wouldn't have been polite if I wouldn't have replied.

 

[teknight]

Did you figure out now which insults you were talking about before?

And it wouldn't have been polite if I wouldn't have replied.

You're calling her an "it" just as I'm calling k9 an "it". I want to insult him by doing that.

 

[Primalex]

You're calling her an "it" just as I'm calling k9 an "it". I want to insult him by doing that.

But this doesn't make you sound older, just hurt and upset.

 

[Netzach]

Primalex is often the butt of "oh don't listen to him/it, it's just a troll." Uncool. Respond or don't but don't do that. Respond in kind, whatever, but don't do the HS shunning bullshit.

BLoved was a troll of sorts. It's not the same.

Blunt and not exactly interested in soothing everyone's feelings, but I wouldn't say "just a troll" either. I've been accused of levels of intolerable assholeism and bigotry because I didn't want to soothe someone else in spite of my own principles here.

I've never cared for that kind of thing myself, I see lots of "he's just a troll just an instigator" on other people's part but I've personally seen him call some shit that needs calling as often as not and some good points get lost in some histrionics over not-niceness.

Even if I'm having the nuts picked out of the turd of my argument on another thread for closer ridicule ( ) I don't feel ready to be completely dismissive.

 

[teknight]

But this doesn't make you sound older, just hurt and upset.

I don't want to sound older. Again, it's an act of volition.

Nice quote though. I like it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, sorry, I thought an experienced pontificator would be worse than an inexperienced pontificator. Interesting point of view - is a bad liar worse than a good liar, too? *ponders*

Pontification isn't lying, it's a form of opinionising.

Pontificating about what one doesn't know-- that's a lie of sorts, because one acts as if one has the experience to form an authoritative opinion.

(Not all trolls are trolls 24/7, Netz. when someone behaves like a troll, then they are a troll for the duration-- and I'm including myself in that)

 

[the captians wench]

You know, this whole side track of intimacy vs/is sex has really sparked a fire in my brain.

I've been noticing that I've been craving something that I'm just not getting right now on any sort of regular basis. I thought is simply boiled down to attention, but after spending two days with friends, I've realized it's something more than that. I think physical intimacy may be the key here, what I'm craving mind and body.

The reason I say this is because I found more satisfaction out of cuddling with them on the couch watching tv than I did from any sex act.

But me with my mind that likes to put things in neat orderly little boxes, things kind of get seperated. Sex is sex, fun pain is fun pain, bad pain is bad pain, and so on. I process S&M as sex (unless obviously you start doing sexual things rather than just inflict pain), and I don't process sex as closeness nessisarily and closeness doesn't equate to sex or BDSM.

When I was being intorduced into the world of BDSM, those who beat be, were not ones who fucked me, and often times it was some one I barely knew. Even those I called friends, I really didn't know that well. So maybe that colors my experience. The sessions weren't about being close, they weren't about anyone getting off, they were purely pain for the sake of pain. I found it cathartic. I didn't have to think about anything. I didn't have to worry about how I looked, did I moan pretty, should I address him this way or that, or anything else. I was a whipping post, posed so that he could get out what ever agression or emotion he wanted. Afterwords was kind of like showering after a hook up. I picked myself up, washed my face, and if I needed any other sort of care it was provided by a female friend in the group who would snuggle with me and watch tv or what ever, but that didn't happen very often.

But like I said before, I can get this same cathartic seperatation from giving head.

In those moments what I'm looking for isn't a feeling of sexual arousal, and it isn't a feeling of intimacy. It's that feeling of pure nothingness, no thoughts, no worries, nothing. Pure freedom, escape from the world.

 

[sb2009]

At 37 I think I get to say something.

Yes, there's a lot that has changed and shifted and re-arranged in my life since i was 25. Or whatever chronological age we're arguing about.

There's also a lot that hasn't. And it's fucking insulting when people imply it will. You know that whole feminist "expert on your own life" thing?

Maybe being kinky is "just a phase" for you which will sort itself out at 70 or something and you'll realize you were a sinful freakshow with problems all along. Or maybe we just get to decide what feels fixed for us, personally.

What she said. Though I should say "at 41..." 'cause I'm older and fatter and all that.

 

[ImOnIt]

Pontification isn't lying, it's a form of opinionising.

Pontificating about what one doesn't know-- that's a lie of sorts, because one acts as if one has the experience to form an authoritative opinion.

(Not all trolls are trolls 24/7, Netz. when someone behaves like a troll, then they are a troll for the duration-- and I'm including myself in that)

I think here he was using lying and pontificating as examples of skills which might be considered 'worse' the more skilled the liar, thief or pontificator is at their craft.

 

[teknight]

I think here he was using lying and pontificating as examples of skills which might be considered 'worse' the more skilled the liar, thief or pontificator is at their craft.

Sidetracking aside, I'm getting a message of one person, one BDSM out of all this...with some of the responses being completely unexpected.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think here he was using lying and pontificating as examples of skills which might be considered 'worse' the more skilled the liar, thief or pontificator is at their craft.

And I am saying that pontification is neither lying nor thievery. It's opinionising. And it's always better to know the subject, if you're going to offer opinions about it.

Sidetracking aside, I'm getting a message of one person, one BDSM out of all this...with some of the responses being completely unexpected.

Yes, it's a combination of DIY based on personal preferences, and shared know-how.

 

[Bandit58]

To me, it's not ALL about sex. Sure I love it when He dominates me in the bedroom, but I also love serving in a non-sexual way.

 

[philosophygirl]

http://outrageousblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/wet_pussy.jpg

 

[neci]

http://outrageousblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/wet_pussy.jpg

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/2/27/128802533367470926.jpg

 

[philosophygirl]

http://media.share.ovi.com/m1/s/1089/35a6c02f3f894c9896937bf7564a9832.jpg

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/2/27/128802533367470926.jpg

 

[neci]

http://media.share.ovi.com/m1/s/1089/35a6c02f3f894c9896937bf7564a9832.jpg

http://www.scrubclubrecords.com/lolz.jpg

 

[philosophygirl]

http://www.scrubclubrecords.com/lolz.jpg

http://www.funnythreat.com/funny_animals/images/toilet_2.jpg

 

[neci]

http://www.funnythreat.com/funny_animals/images/toilet_2.jpg

http://checkmybelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/lolcat-funny-picture-moderator1.jpg

 

[philosophygirl]

http://checkmybelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/lolcat-funny-picture-moderator1.jpg

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Cats/CatsSunbathing.jpg

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Yes, it's a combination of DIY based on personal preferences, and shared know-how.

That's about the best way of putting it I've seen in ages.

 

[Homburg]

For me it's about sex, and I'll admit to being skeptical of anyone who says that it's not, or who says that BDSM and sex don't necessarily have to go together. I mean, come on.

Yeah, sex, in its' myriad forms.

I think part of the disconnect is that BDSM is not always about immediate sex, or even immediate arousal. The dynamic of my own relationships includes plenty of moments when their is no arousal or sexual content present, but, by default, BDSM is involved because the dynamic is a BDSM dynamic. We relate to each other within the structure of said dynamic, so when viv is stopping at the grocery store on the way home to pick me up a tin of mints, BDSM is there.

Barely. And I think that is the nook where the "It's not all about sex!" crowd is looking. To me, it is all about sex, but I can see the sex underlying the utterly non-sex bits. Sex may be nowhere near MIS' mind when she is folding the laundry, but she is doing it because she is expected to. Control is nowhere near my mind when I am changing a light bulb, but I am still maintaining my household and doing the "manly" thing by fixing shit. In its' own way, it reinforces my role, and thus is involved in the sexuality of our dynamic even while sex is not present.

Another part of the difference is that hormonal drives change as we age. In our teens and 20's, those hormones are raging and everything is about sex/partnering. Good performance on the baseball field? Might get laid. Bought a new car? Might get laid. New hairstyle? Might get laid. Our lives are wound up in attracting partners due to very happy hormone levels.

Move on to the 30's and 40's and shit slows down. Partnering has happened here and there and may be on-going, and the hormones have quieted down a bit. Life is a bit more in the way, so sex and partnering may not be so important. If anything, the balance has shifted to partnering eclipsing sex.

50's and 60's see even more hormonal mellowing, and it just keeps going. Those hormones are utterly integral to sex drive, and thus how we see sex, relationships, and BDSM. So much of our emotions and drives are wound up in our hormones that there is a very definite correlation between age and how we see sexual topics.

Personally, part of the confusion is how intertwined control becomes with sex when BDSM enters the picture. Desire for control and sex drive may parallel and become attached/related in the BDSM mind, but they both are capable of existing independently. You can fuck sans control, and can control sans fucking. If your hormones slide enough that you have lessened interest in sex, but still dig that happy control (whether controlling or being controlled), you may well perceive BDSM as not about sex. You are getting your jollies solely from control as your bits might not give as much of a damn any more.

--

At 37 I think I get to say something.

Yes, there's a lot that has changed and shifted and re-arranged in my life since i was 25. Or whatever chronological age we're arguing about.

There's also a lot that hasn't. And it's fucking insulting when people imply it will. You know that whole feminist "expert on your own life" thing?

Maybe being kinky is "just a phase" for you which will sort itself out at 70 or something and you'll realize you were a sinful freakshow with problems all along. Or maybe we just get to decide what feels fixed for us, personally.

Absolutely. This kind of attitude bugs the hell out of me, as it implies a connection between age and stupidity. All too often, we (including myself in this) look back and think "God, I was stupid when I was xx age." But, you know, I wasn't. I was mechanically as intelligent as I am now. My experience level was different, but I had the same basic processing power. the difference was more that my motivations for making those decisions were different back then. That which fired up a 20yr old Homburg and that which motivates a 38yr old Homburg are different animals.

Sure, in some cases, it was because I was ignorant then of what I know now, but that does not automatically mean that I was somehow stupid. I was just wrong. Knowing why I made my decisions at that age makes me less likely to spout off on how "Oh, you'll change." Of course you will change, as will I, and everyone else. Saying it in that manner is patronising as hell, and adds nothing but rancor to a discussion.

That said, my big hobby these days is the same one as when I was 8. I still like to go target shooting, and I started that when I was in single digits. I still love cars and motorcycles. I still love thigh-high stockings (my first sexual predilection). I still love fiddling about with computers and radios. I still like women with pale skin and dark hair. All of these things were part of me from a young age and haven't changed one lick since. Some shit is just fixed.

--

I remember people telling me that my priorities would shift, my perspective would be altered, I'd change and grow and so on.

I didn't find it insulting in the slightest. I was sure, so sure that they had no idea what they were talking about. I just knew they were wrong, but it didn't matter to me that they were.

Sure, and I can be called a "nip" or a "jap" and it doesn't bother me, but I know plenty of people with similar ancestry to me that find both terms insulting. Just because you are not offending by patronising speech does not mean others are not.

Note - I was not insulted by it either, then or now. I'm not giving you hell for it, just saying that your experience, (and mine) in this arena, means little to those who do not share that individual experience.

 

[teknight]

@Hom:
Ohio Gozaimasu, Homburg san!

I think I can more easily relate to what you've just said than a bunch of other responses (sorry, guys, but Hom wins this thread's competition ), although...changing lightbulbs?! 4 cerealz?! (err...that means "Seriously!?" when I'm not being serious. Seriously!) I get it though- if you're in that mindset, then everything gets ..er...painted in that light. I guess that's where some of the disconnect to the notions of M/s stems from me...But, that's cool.

 

[JMohegan]

Barely. And I think that is the nook where the "It's not all about sex!" crowd is looking.

It's not all about sex, for me, because a relationship is not all about sex. And control forms the structure, part of the foundation, of a personal relationship for me.

Without control, I'm not interested in staying with a woman for longer than it takes to fuck her. That's just the way it is, and has been, for me, from the beginning.

I didn't grow into this persona. It's more that I figured out how to get what I needed.

Sure, and I can be called a "nip" or a "jap" and it doesn't bother me, but I know plenty of people with similar ancestry to me that find both terms insulting. Just because you are not offending by patronising speech does not mean others are not.

Note - I was not insulted by it either, then or now. I'm not giving you hell for it, just saying that your experience, (and mine) in this arena, means little to those who do not share that individual experience.

The difference between patronizing speech and a racial slur is that the latter carries the weight of real societal oppression.

Re the bold - obviously.

 

[Homburg]

It's not all about sex, for me, because a relationship is not all about sex. And control forms the structure, part of the foundation, of a personal relationship for me.

Without control, I'm not interested in staying with a woman for longer than it takes to fuck her. That's just the way it is, and has been, for me, from the beginning.

That's why I was trying to delineate sex drive and drive to control. They are separate animals in many ways, and calling the difference helps some to think about it.

Still, I come back to sex. I can get companionship, entertainment, conversation, and even emotional intimacy out of male friends and platonic female friends. Neither are relationship material, with "relationship" referring to actual partnering. If the primary difference between the relationship I have with my best friend, and the dynamic I have with my partner, is sex, than, well, it's about sex. No, sex does not explicitly define the whole of the relationship, but it does differentiate it (in macro traits) from other relationships in my life.

And while I may have BDSM play with someone outside established dynamics that does not include sex, the experience is still very much a sexual experience, or at least sexually tinged/charged (Usually. When it works right.)

To give a more pointed anecdote, as has been seen on my Ropework Photos thread (before my pichost went tits up and I lost my photos), I have tied up a male friend on an occasion or two. He's a cool guy that I've known for a coupla years and is married to a non-kinky woman. She understands his predilections and their relationship functions with him looking for play outside their circuit. Well, I'd not tied a male before, and he suggested I give it a go. I went along with it to see. I'm comfortable with my sexuality and unafraid of the male body, so why not?

Well, it was an... interesting experience. I had zero sexual interest in the guy whatsoever, and thus got nothing out of the overall experience (except for rope use practice of course). That right there is a BDSM event where sex was way not involved in any way, at least on my end. And, frankly, it didn't feel like BDSM. It was just me playing with rope. Without that sexual tension, whether sex is included or not, it just failed to be BDSM for me. Sure, I had control. He would've done whatever I told him, but no part of me was interested in the experience from a sexual perspective.

Maybe it's just me, but when sex is wholly removed from the picture insofar as my cock is concerned, BDSM is out the window too, even if my hands are engaged in it.

I didn't grow into this persona. It's more that I figured out how to get what I needed.

I find this statement interesting in light of the comments made by a few in this thread in regards to peoples' tastes and needs changing as they matured. Guess it didn't really happen that way here.