Translatability Between Languages

Many if not most of the translations of the Bible were not made using the original ancient Hebrew. They were translations of other translations of some version of Hebrew, and it's probable that each iteration changed things a bit depending upon the beliefs of the translator and/or the era.

That hasn't been true since the Middle Ages, if ever.

First of all, it's important to note that the New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Hebrew. For the Old Testament (Jewish Scriptures), there was a Greek translation from Hebrew known as the Septuagint that was widely used by Jews living outside Judea (especially in the major Greek city of Alexandria in Egypt). Early Christians took this as their standard version of the Old Testament, but also referred to the "original" Hebrew texts, for example with Origen's Hexapla (made some time before 240 CE), which collected and critically compared six different editions of the Old Testament in Greek and Hebrew.

As Antiquity turned into the Middle Ages, knowledge of Greek began to fade in the Western Roman Empire, and the church needed a translation into Latin. In the Middle Ages, Western Christians primarily used a Latin translation of the Bible called "the Vulgate," done mainly by St. Jerome directly from Greek and Hebrew c.400 CE. When the Bible was translated into other languages, they typically used this Latin version as the source. Jews used Hebrew versions of their Scriptures alongside various translations into their local languages, and eventually created a standardized Hebrew version known as the "Masoretic Text."

With the Renaissance, knowledge of Greek again began to spread in Western Europe, and scholars became interested in going back to the texts in their original languages. They started to make new translations directly from these languages (the first c.1455 CE). At around this time printing was also invented, which meant that copies could be made more cheaply and reliably. These were some of the factors that led to the Reformation, and Protestants as well as Roman Catholics made a concerted effort to produce corrected, high-quality texts of the Bible both in the original languages and in translation. (The "King James Version" was one such translation/revision.)

This has been an ongoing process for the 500 years since, with new discoveries, better understanding and more rigorous methods improving the quality of the texts. Notably, archeological finds of ancient manuscripts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls (c.200 BCE–100 CE) have allowed us to compare our transmitted texts with early copies. While there are some variations (as there necessarily will be when things are copied by hand), the overall conclusion is that the Old Testament texts have not changed much between then and now: the Masoretic Text is pretty close to the oldest extant copies.

For the New Testament, the evidence tends to show that many texts went through an early period of editing and revision, but that by c.200 CE they had pretty much reached their final form, apart from minor errors by copyists. (This doesn't mean there was no significant variation between different Bibles after that time, as different churches chose different traditions as their standard, so that e.g. churches in the East and West used somewhat different texts.)
 
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That hasn't been true since the Middle Ages, if ever.

First of all, it's important to note that the New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Hebrew. For the Old Testament (Jewish Scriptures), there was a Greek translation from Hebrew known as the Septuagint that was widely used by Jews living outside Judea (especially in the major Greek city of Alexandria in Egypt). Early Christians took this as their standard version of the Old Testament, but also referred to the "original" Hebrew texts, for example with Origen's Hexapla (made some time before 240 CE), which collected and critically compared six different editions of the Old Testament in Greek and Hebrew.

As Antiquity turned into the Middle Ages, knowledge of Greek began to fade in the Western Roman Empire, and the church needed a translation into Latin. In the Middle Ages, Western Christians primarily used a Latin translation of the Bible called "the Vulgate," done mainly by St. Jerome directly from Greek and Hebrew c.400 CE. When the Bible was translated into other languages, they typically used this Latin version as the source. Jews used Hebrew versions of their Scriptures alongside various translations into their local languages, and eventually created a standardized Hebrew version known as the "Masoretic Text."

With the Renaissance, knowledge of Greek again began to spread in Western Europe, and scholars became interested in going back to the texts in their original languages. They started to make new translations directly from these languages (the first c.1455 CE). At around this time printing was also invented, which meant that copies could be made more cheaply and reliably. These were some of the factors that led to the Reformation, and Protestants as well as Roman Catholics made a concerted effort to produce corrected, high-quality texts of the Bible both in the original languages and in translation. (The "King James Version" was one such translation/revision.)

This has been an ongoing process for the 500 years since, with new discoveries, better understanding and more rigorous methods improving the quality of the texts. Notably, archeological finds of ancient manuscripts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls (c.200 BCE–100 CE) have allowed us to compare our transmitted texts with early copies. While there are some variations (as there necessarily will be when things are copied by hand), the overall conclusion is that the Old Testament texts have not changed much between then and now: the Masoretic Text is pretty close to the oldest extant copies.

For the New Testament, the evidence tends to show that many texts went through an early period of editing and revision, but that by 200 CE they had pretty much reached their final form, apart from minor errors by copyists. (This doesn't meant there was no significant variation between different Bibles after that time, as different churches chose different traditions as their standard, so that e.g. churches in the East and West used somewhat different texts.)
My research as to some dates and languages may be faulty, but the fact still remains that every translation of the Bible was affected by the religious beliefs of the region and time in which the translation was completed. My point is confirmed by your statement that, "as different churches chose different traditions as their standard, so that e.g. churches in the East and West used somewhat different texts."

What that means is that there exists no literal translation of the Bible. I'm not implying that any translation of the Bible is "wrong", but that variations have occurred because of both political and religious interests of the time period and those funding said translations.
 
My point is confirmed by your statement that, "as different churches chose different traditions as their standard, so that e.g. churches in the East and West used somewhat different texts."

I mean, not necessarily. In many cases it was simply that those were the "text types" (versions) they had. Back in the day when copies had to be made by hand, it wasn't trivial to do a widespread switch from one edition to another.

But I'm not disputing that translations were affected by the beliefs of the translators. How could they not be? Translations will always have points where you need to apply interpretation, and translators chose the interpretations they believed to be correct. Occasionally they were clearly wrong in hindsight, but more often it came down to choices that could be argued either way.

What I was mainly pushing back against was the suggestion that the Bible is a game of telephone, where the texts have been increasingly corrupted via repeated retranslations and bad-faith edits. At least from the point in time where the separate texts are collected and become "the Bible," this is not really the case.

As for political pressure on translators, yes, there was some of that, especially during that period of religious wars. But again, these were generally on points that were genuinely debatable, for example whether to translate Greek ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía) as "church" or as "congregation." "Church" was seen as legitimizing the established church hierarchy, so dissenters such as Puritans preferred "congregation"; in the pro-establishment King James/Authorized Version, the more traditional translation was brought back.

Tradition and continuity has also been a consideration for most translators. One example is that where the Hebrew text has יהוה‎ (YHWH), the general convention is to translate it as "THE LORD" rather than as "Yahweh"—following Jewish practice to not speak the name of God, as well as the Greek Septuagint text, which has κυριον (kyrios), "lord." But arguably, this is not what the original text actually says. (Some translations do use "Jehova," a variation arising from a misunderstanding of the Hebrew vowel markings by translators ignorant of the Jewish convention.)

In modern times there is dispute over certain references to sexual immorality (in the Biblical authors' view), specifically whether they are about homosexual activity. This is one of those things where I think the difficulty is just as much a difference in culture as a difference in language; it can't be resolved in just a few words, you need an in-depth article to explain what it may have meant, to the best of our understanding. But whatever the truth of the matter, it seems obvious that some on both sides are engaged in motivated reasoning to reach their favored conclusion.
 
Recently, I've started posting German translation of my stories sent to me by a fan. I've got two posted and one submitted. One of the stories is "Mein Tag als Pool Boy", which is the German translation of "My Day as a Pool Boy".

It recently got a comment:
@Zupfer (als freundlicher Hinweis): ein weiteres großes Problem sind Dinge, die in den USA alltäglich, in Deutschland jedoch unbekannt sind, und allzu wörtlich übersetzte Redewendungen. Hier ein paar Sachen, die mir so ins Auge gesprungen sind, dass ich mir sie gemerkt hab:

Was ein Pool Boy ist, weiß man hier Dank Hollywood gerade noch, auch wenn niemand in D. einen hat, aber z.B. "Wine Coolers" dürften die wenigsten kennen. Wenn ich danach google, werden mir ausschließlich Kühlschrankgroße Geräte, in die man Weinflaschen legt, angezeigt. Da reicht es m.E. vollkommen, nur von einem "Wein" zu schreiben.

Noch schlimmer: Beemer. Jedem anständigen Deutschen kommt das Kotzen bei dieser verballhornten Aussprache der Firma BMW.

Stichwort Redewendungen: "sich in die Beziehung zu stürzen [ok] anstatt das Feld zu spielen [was?!]". Wenn man unbedingt eine Redewendung will: auf Pirsch gehen. Meist ist aber eine freiere Übersetzung (Männer aufreißen) auch kein Problem.


Which Google translate as:
@Zupfer (as a friendly hint): another big problem is things that are commonplace in the USA but unknown in Germany, and phrases that are translated all too literally. Here are a few things that caught my eye so much that I remembered them:

Thanks to Hollywood, you just know what a pool boy is, even if no one in Germany has one, but e.g. "Wine Coolers" are probably not known by many. When I google for it, I am only shown refrigerator-sized appliances in which you put wine bottles. In my opinion, it is quite enough to write only about a "wine".

Even worse: Beemer. Every decent German throws up at this screwed-up pronunciation of the BMW company.

Keyword idioms: "to plunge into the relationship [ok] instead of playing the field [what?!]". If you really want a phrase: go stalking. Usually, however, a freer translation (tearing up men) is not a problem either.


What's the German word for "wine cooler"? There is none, because they don't have wine coolers in Germany. But having the girls in the story drink wine as they sit around the pool tanning doesn't capture the spirit of the scene.
 
What's the German word for "wine cooler"? There is none, because they don't have wine coolers in Germany. But having the girls in the story drink wine as they sit around the pool tanning doesn't capture the spirit of the scene.
How about a Sommerspritzer?
 
What's the German word for "wine cooler"? There is none, because they don't have wine coolers in Germany. But having the girls in the story drink wine as they sit around the pool tanning doesn't capture the spirit of the scene.
Can't speak for Germany, but where I live it's all Breezers.
 
What's the German word for "wine cooler"? There is none, because they don't have wine coolers in Germany. But having the girls in the story drink wine as they sit around the pool tanning doesn't capture the spirit of the scene.

This goes to that question of translation across cultural differences again. Should the detail be kept as-is to maintain authenticity for its American setting, perhaps with an added explanatory gloss, or should it be adapted to something the readership can understand and relate to (as @Jackie.Hikaru says, probably some kind of Spritz)?

You used to see the latter approach a lot in comics, cartoons and games translated from Japanese, which would go to sometimes absurd lengths to try to Americanize the setting. (With dialog blatantly contradicting what the visuals depicted, for example.)
 
Recently, I've started posting German translation of my stories sent to me by a fan. I've got two posted and one submitted. One of the stories is "Mein Tag als Pool Boy", which is the German translation of "My Day as a Pool Boy".

It recently got a comment:
@Zupfer (als freundlicher Hinweis): ein weiteres großes Problem sind Dinge, die in den USA alltäglich, in Deutschland jedoch unbekannt sind, und allzu wörtlich übersetzte Redewendungen. Hier ein paar Sachen, die mir so ins Auge gesprungen sind, dass ich mir sie gemerkt hab:

Was ein Pool Boy ist, weiß man hier Dank Hollywood gerade noch, auch wenn niemand in D. einen hat, aber z.B. "Wine Coolers" dürften die wenigsten kennen. Wenn ich danach google, werden mir ausschließlich Kühlschrankgroße Geräte, in die man Weinflaschen legt, angezeigt. Da reicht es m.E. vollkommen, nur von einem "Wein" zu schreiben.

Noch schlimmer: Beemer. Jedem anständigen Deutschen kommt das Kotzen bei dieser verballhornten Aussprache der Firma BMW.

Stichwort Redewendungen: "sich in die Beziehung zu stürzen [ok] anstatt das Feld zu spielen [was?!]". Wenn man unbedingt eine Redewendung will: auf Pirsch gehen. Meist ist aber eine freiere Übersetzung (Männer aufreißen) auch kein Problem.


Which Google translate as:
@Zupfer (as a friendly hint): another big problem is things that are commonplace in the USA but unknown in Germany, and phrases that are translated all too literally. Here are a few things that caught my eye so much that I remembered them:

Thanks to Hollywood, you just know what a pool boy is, even if no one in Germany has one, but e.g. "Wine Coolers" are probably not known by many. When I google for it, I am only shown refrigerator-sized appliances in which you put wine bottles. In my opinion, it is quite enough to write only about a "wine".

Even worse: Beemer. Every decent German throws up at this screwed-up pronunciation of the BMW company.

Keyword idioms: "to plunge into the relationship [ok] instead of playing the field [what?!]". If you really want a phrase: go stalking. Usually, however, a freer translation (tearing up men) is not a problem either.


What's the German word for "wine cooler"? There is none, because they don't have wine coolers in Germany. But having the girls in the story drink wine as they sit around the pool tanning doesn't capture the spirit of the scene.

Indeed, "beemer" was the far more serious offence. "Every decent German throws up at this" -- exactly so.
Not your fault, of course. Simply, the translator could not care to put in the work.
 
BMW is bemari in Finnish. VW is volkkari. I still think the old beetles were the cutest cars ever invented. And the hippie buses!

What was the topic again? Something something translations? I think I can still see the tracks from here.
 
Tolkien for once learned Finnish to read Finnish texts.
I bet this was also to read texts that weren't translated at all.

And he was deeply interested in languages themselves. Not just what was written in them.
 
BMW is bemari in Finnish. VW is volkkari. I still think the old beetles were the cutest cars ever invented. And the hippie buses!

What was the topic again? Something something translations? I think I can still see the tracks from here.
I think they deserve to also know that the old beetles are called kupla in Finnish. Aka bubble.
 
I value a good translation highly. Especially when reading something like fantasy. My vocabulary in English may be good, but not THAT vast that it would cover all the words you may encounter there and there finedded. Or made-up words that have hints to other words. Let's take quidditch as an example. In English it is just a new word for me, of which I only learn the approximate meaning along the first novel of Harry Potter.

But the Finnish translator has done the marvellous job of making up a Finnish word, huispaus, that has the similar connotations as quidditch. Yes, she reverse engineered quidditch, and did a word in Finnish. I get MUCH more out of huispaus than quidditch.

Jaana Kapari-Jatta is a celebrated translator and has translator other fantasy fiction as well, and I suppose that right now she's the go to in the kind of fantasy that has plenty of made-up words... At least they understood to ask her to translate Nevermoor, too.

So.... While I may be able to read something in the original language, the translation is still sometimes the better option.
 
But the Finnish translator has done the marvellous job of making up a Finnish word, huispaus, that has the similar connotations as quidditch. Yes, she reverse engineered quidditch, and did a word in Finnish. I get MUCH more out of huispaus than quidditch.
I had a similar experience back in the day, reading the translation of Harry Potter into my own native language. The translator would even leave an afterword where he explained the rationale behind certain word choices he'd made.

It was only once my English ability increased sufficiently that I could properly appreciate how much of the nuance he had missed or intentionally skipped over. Odd coinages like "whiz-click" to mean "portkey", laying bare the clever wordplay of "Knockturne", the absolute butchering of "Deathly Hallows"... Sure, he had some interesting ideas at times, like picking a clever expression for "Diagon Alley" that highlighted the obscured, somewhat shady nature of the hidden street. But overall, there was much lost in translation, and the gaps were filled very clumsily.

I can definitely understand Tolkien's decision. There is no replacement to reading the originals.
 
But overall, there was much lost in translation, and the gaps were filled very clumsily.
The thing is, I have even a bilingual diploma regarding English, and I still wouldn't do better myself in many cases.

I can definitely understand Tolkien's decision. There is no replacement to reading the originals.
Also he didn't have a choice in many cases. It was either reading the originals, or not at all. Not many Finnish to English translations available back in the day. Well, Kalevala had been translated, but otherwise the selection was slim.
 
Even without translating words, readers are going to read stories through the lens of their own culture. American story has a group 'drinking wine coolers' and my British brain immediately wonders why they are drinking watered-down alcohol - alcopops is the UK word. Usually the answer is the characters are teenagers, which may not be the impression the author wanted to give. If it's because it's hot, that would need to be stated to make it clear to me. The mainland Europe answer would probably be a spritzer, so it's not an alien concept. Brits would probably just alternate fizzy wine with soft drinks, but struggle to understand such heat!

The first Henning Mankell I read was translated into German. My German isn't great at subtext, but I skipped over excess description and the plot raced along nicely. So I picked up another, in English. It was terrible. Apart from going on about typical people from Skåne, but never explaining the stereotype for readers who'd never heard of the place (I asked a Swedish friend. Slow and boring, rural - kinda like Norfolk without the incest. And better scenery), it kept referring to driving a lemon. A lemon is a poorly-made car that keeps breaking down, but this one was portrayed as just an eccentric car.

It finally dawned on me that Citroen is essentially citron, lemon in various languages. It was a 2CV. No-one would ever call a 2CV a lemon in English, even if people do so in other languages. In English, Bee-Em-Doubleyou is a Beemer (though tedious types claim Beemers are motorcycles and cars are Bimmers, for reasons I was too bored to recall), but Bay-Em-Vay isn't shortened that way - no need.

Another cultural difference I often notice in Lit stories are attitudes to driving - in the UK it's a serious deal, you never drive after a couple drinks, and you'd never put up with a passenger distracting you. Scenes portrayed as normal and playful where a couple go for a 3-course dinner, drive home, and driver has his cock fondled, come across to me as reckless drunk driving and put me off the characters. There's no real way to translate that without detailed explanation of them having only one glass of wine each rather than my norm of sharing a bottle, and describing wide deserted roads where anyone who can drive a dodgem car could navigate in their sleep, as opposed to being on high alert for the duration.
 
I frequently work with translators, including some very good ones. And I agree that 100% translation is largely impossible. Even if the languages are very closely related there will always be differences in culture, connotation and background. Even with legal texts, for example, you have to transpose concepts from different legal systems.

And this is why translators own the copyright to their translations, unless they waive it as part of the contract. And it's why translators are being credited as co-authors. And why there are now awards for best translations.

And it's not before time. Translating is an incredibly difficult job, that requires a perfect command of two languages, the ability to write, an understanding of two cultures, and a nitpicky eye for detail. And, for the poor souls working in business translation, an acceptance of the fact that 90% of their work will never be read by anyone.
Translation is such an underappreciated art, it’s not just about swapping words but capturing the essence, tone, and cultural nuances of the original. The fact that translators are finally getting recognition (and even awards!) is long overdue. It’s a tough gig, requiring not just linguistic skill but creativity and deep cultural understanding. And yeah, business translators deserve a special shoutout for their often thankless work.
 
Even without translating words, readers are going to read stories through the lens of their own culture. American story has a group 'drinking wine coolers' and my British brain immediately wonders why they are drinking watered-down alcohol - alcopops is the UK word. Usually the answer is the characters are teenagers, which may not be the impression the author wanted to give. If it's because it's hot, that would need to be stated to make it clear to me. The mainland Europe answer would probably be a spritzer, so it's not an alien concept. Brits would probably just alternate fizzy wine with soft drinks, but struggle to understand such heat!

The first Henning Mankell I read was translated into German. My German isn't great at subtext, but I skipped over excess description and the plot raced along nicely. So I picked up another, in English. It was terrible. Apart from going on about typical people from Skåne, but never explaining the stereotype for readers who'd never heard of the place (I asked a Swedish friend. Slow and boring, rural - kinda like Norfolk without the incest. And better scenery), it kept referring to driving a lemon. A lemon is a poorly-made car that keeps breaking down, but this one was portrayed as just an eccentric car.

It finally dawned on me that Citroen is essentially citron, lemon in various languages. It was a 2CV. No-one would ever call a 2CV a lemon in English, even if people do so in other languages. In English, Bee-Em-Doubleyou is a Beemer (though tedious types claim Beemers are motorcycles and cars are Bimmers, for reasons I was too bored to recall), but Bay-Em-Vay isn't shortened that way - no need.

Another cultural difference I often notice in Lit stories are attitudes to driving - in the UK it's a serious deal, you never drive after a couple drinks, and you'd never put up with a passenger distracting you. Scenes portrayed as normal and playful where a couple go for a 3-course dinner, drive home, and driver has his cock fondled, come across to me as reckless drunk driving and put me off the characters. There's no real way to translate that without detailed explanation of them having only one glass of wine each rather than my norm of sharing a bottle, and describing wide deserted roads where anyone who can drive a dodgem car could navigate in their sleep, as opposed to being on high alert for the duration.
This is such a fascinating dive into cultural nuances! You’re so right, even without translation, readers bring their own cultural lens to stories, which can completely shift how they interpret things. The “wine coolers” vs. “alcopops” example is perfect, it’s amazing how small details can carry such different connotations. And the Citroen/lemon mix-up is hilarious but also a great reminder of how tricky cultural references can be. The driving norms bit is spot on too; what’s playful in one culture can feel reckless in another. It’s a reminder that storytelling is as much about bridging cultural gaps as it is about the plot itself.
 
A great deal of the problems with translating English to any other language and translating any other language into English and vice versus is the English language itself. English is not a "pure" language. It's a witches brew of many languages absorbed over the centuries of conquest of the British Islands by people who spoke different languages. The British Isles were connected to Denmark and the Netherlands by a land bridge up until about 8,000 years ago. As those people migrated to the British Isles, they brought their language with them and served as the base for English. Through the centuries, the British Isles were invaded and conquered by the Romans who added Latin to the mix, then the Germanic Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. The name "English" has it's roots in "Englalonde" which means "Land of the Angles". This was shortened over the years to "England" from whence was born the name "English". Gaelic was stirred in when the Irish invaded. The Danes invaded in the 9th Century and the Normans in the 10th bringing both Danish and several French dialects along with them.

The result is a language with very few hard and fast rules of grammar and a lack of words that indicate gender. The meaning of many words in other languages are context dependent, meaning the same word in Italian, for instance, can mean different things based upon the context in which it is used. Throw in technical jargon and translation becomes a lost cause. In English, we would hold a drill bit by the "shank". In French, it's a "tail".

Erotica presents another set of problems in that the meaning of some words has changed significantly over time. For instance, "pussy" probably was derived from the Old Norse word "puss" which meant a "pouch", but in the 16th Century was a tear of endearment for women. By the 17th century, "pussy" was used as a bawdy reference to the female genitalia, and by the 19th had changed to mean an effeminate man. By the beginning of the 20th Century, "pussy" was a slang term for a woman's "happy box" which women found degrading until the feminist movement embraced the word with "I have the pussy so I make the rules" and the now famous "pussy hats".

Most other words commonly used in erotica have also changed meaning over the years, such as cock, dick, prick, tits, etc. The word "fuck" hasn't changed meaning so much as it has changed in usage from a verb (I fuck, you fuck, we all fuck), to a noun (I don't give a fuck), and adjective (she's a fucking bitch), and to an adverb (I fucking nailed her last night), along with an expletive (Oh fuck) and a curse (fuck you and the horse you rode in on).

The result of all this is to translate from one language into another, you not only have to know the context, structure and idioms of both languages, but also the time period in which the words were written.
Wow, this is such a deep dive into the chaos of the English language! English is a wild mashup of influences, and that makes translation a nightmare. The way words like “pussy” and “fuck” have evolved over time adds another layer of complexity, especially in something as nuanced as erotica. Translators really do have to be part linguist, part historian, and part cultural detective to get it right. It’s a reminder of how rich and messy language can be, and why translation is such an art. Great breakdown!
 
The result of all this is to translate from one language into another, you not only have to know the context, structure and idioms of both languages, but also the time period in which the words were written.
This applies to all languages. To the extent that it is easy for even a native speaker to misunderstand parts of old texts.
 
This applies to all languages. To the extent that it is easy for even a native speaker to misunderstand parts of old texts.
The worst is when you get teachers trying to teach Shakespeare to bored teenagers without understanding it themselves. If there's a reference to a sword, weapon or sheath, it's a knob joke. If there's a reference to a country, country matters, or nothing, it's a pussy joke. Add that knowledge to the plot of say Romeo and Juliet, and it improves it no end.
 
The worst is when you get teachers trying to teach Shakespeare to bored teenagers without understanding it themselves. If there's a reference to a sword, weapon or sheath, it's a knob joke. If there's a reference to a country, country matters, or nothing, it's a pussy joke. Add that knowledge to the plot of say Romeo and Juliet, and it improves it no end.
My native language wasn't used literature in Shakespearean times yet, but the same thing applies even to 19th century. So much humour and innuendo is easy to miss. And even plain not understanding words that used to mean something that doesn't exist anymore, as times have changed.
 
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