Two POV mini challenges

[AG31]

Good point about 2P being told *to* someone. I'd say 1P is told *by* a notional character, 3P is told *about* a notional character, but 2P is told *to* a notional character. These are not just grammatical distinctions: they're different devices, with different effects.

(Which brings me to another problem I have with 2p narration. It generally is only a stream-of-consciousness fantasy or memory or imperative, and generally fails to include any characterization at all - not of the narrator, and not of the addressee (the "you") either.

There was an interesting thread here which discussed the three POVs, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. For myself, I am content with the idea that there is no pure 2nd person. There's always an implied 1st person in the narrator's voice. But is 2nd person always "about" the addressee??? Might it not be about the narrator's take on the addressee? My mini-challenge is to write a few paragraphs that are clearly about the narrator, without using the words "I", "me", "me", or "us."

I'm not starting, because, as I've said a number of times, I don't consider myself a writer.

EDIT: In addition, or write a few paragraphs where the narrator is neutral and it is all about the addressee. As I thought more about this I'm wondering why an author would choose to do this. Do you know?

 

[SimonDoom]

There was an interesting thread here which discussed the three POVs, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. For myself, I am content with the idea that there is no pure 2nd person. There's always an implied 1st person in the narrator's voice. But is 2nd person always "about" the addressee??? Might it not be about the narrator's take on the addressee? My mini-challenge is to write a few paragraphs that are clearly about the narrator, without using the words "I", "me", "me", or "us."

I'm not starting, because, as I've said a number of times, I don't consider myself a writer.

I'm not sure what you're asking. I wrote a story that I think satisfies this criterion: https://www.literotica.com/s/public-exposure-4. Others have given you examples.

The best novel-length example I can think of is Jay McInerny's novel Bright Lights Big City.

Here's my off the cuff response to your challenge:

You don't believe second person point of view really exists. You are convinced that it's really first-person point of view disguised, that it represents a first-person narrator's point of view, cleverly disguised.

You look around for the first-person narrator and you don't find him. No open doors reveal his presence. Still, you are convinced he's out there, somewhere.

Simon is texting you for your response, but you don't answer.

 

[AG31]

I'm not sure what you're asking. I wrote a story that I think satisfies this criterion: https://www.literotica.com/s/public-exposure-4. Others have given you examples.

The best novel-length example I can think of is Jay McInerny's novel Bright Lights Big City.

Here's my off the cuff response to your challenge:

You don't believe second person point of view really exists. You are convinced that it's really first-person point of view disguised, that it represents a first-person narrator's point of view, cleverly disguised.

You look around for the first-person narrator and you don't find him. No open doors reveal his presence. Still, you are convinced he's out there, somewhere.

Simon is texting you for your response, but you don't answer.

Good job. I get a more vivid impression about the narrator than about the addressee in this snippet. The narrator is irritated. We don't know how the addressee feels.

P.S. See my edit to the OP which I made after you posted this.

 

[ZfrkS62]

I would argue that anytime the "narrator" isn't an actual part of the story (like "Fight Club") then it's a true 2nd person tense. If at anyone, they reveal themselves to be a character in the story, then it would shift.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

That disembodied voice had been droning on for what felt like eons, but in fact, had only been a few short days. Every move, no, worse than that, your every thought, emotion laid bare by some ethereal presence for anyone caring to listen.

The even timbre of the soft baritone should have been soothing as it described the intimacy, the depth of understanding of every nuance, painting a mural on a never-ending canvas. To what purpose, why? Where had it come from? How did it know? Whom, or what, did it belong to?

The last drops of golden elixir, the remnants of what only yesterday had been a full bottle of McAllen, dripping into your glass, another voice joined his. This one more familiar but so fragile, so broken: yours.

"What the fuck do you want?" you shout.

"To tell the story, what else?" The damned voice laughs as your now empty glass shatters against the wall.

 

[AlinaX]

You talk to yourself, as if consciously aware that one side of the conversation is written by the narrator, and you've always wondered about them.

 

[Britva415]

My mini-challenge is to write a few paragraphs that are clearly about the narrator, without using the words "I", "me", "me", or "us."

[...]

or write a few paragraphs where the narrator is neutral and it is all about the addressee. As I thought more about this I'm wondering why an author would choose to do this. Do you know?

Just a guess - Inexperience and the mistaken belief that it will feel to the reader like it felt to them while writing it?

 

[Britva415]

I would argue that anytime the "narrator" isn't an actual part of the story (like "Fight Club") then it's a true 2nd person tense.

Isn't that a description of all 3p stories, though?

 

[XerXesXu]

There was an interesting thread here which discussed the three POVs, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. For myself, I am content with the idea that there is no pure 2nd person. There's always an implied 1st person in the narrator's voice. But is 2nd person always "about" the addressee??? Might it not be about the narrator's take on the addressee? My mini-challenge is to write a few paragraphs that are clearly about the narrator, without using the words "I", "me", "me", or "us."

I'm not starting, because, as I've said a number of times, I don't consider myself a writer.

EDIT: In addition, or write a few paragraphs where the narrator is neutral and it is all about the addressee. As I thought more about this I'm wondering why an author would choose to do this. Do you know?

I, for preference, write 3P POV and narrate in 3rd person omniscient. A 3rd person narrator always has a voice, I try to keep it as neutral as possible, but the 3rd person voice is always the voice of God. Read the bible and you'll see that there are two Gods, a vengeful one in the Old Testament and a loving one in the New. And more, there are 3 persons in the one true God.

It's a human vanity to think a human narrator can achieve what God can't. If you think one can, maybe there's a little demon sitting on your shoulder whispering in your ear.

Challenge 1:

‘You slide your knickers down your thighs and offer yourself to him, ‘Ravish me big-boy; ravish me lavishly,’ you naughty, marriage-wrecking slut. Torn between the conflicted imperatives of nature and marital fidelity, he chooses to insert his engorged member in your weeping receptacle, ‘Uggh Uh … Uhh ..Uhh .. Uhh’, and prematurely, ‘Uhhhhhh!’ ejaculates.

Challenge 2:

‘You slide your knickers down your thighs and offer yourself to him, ‘Ravish me big-boy; ravish me lavishly.’ He inserts his engorged member in your weeping receptacle, ‘Uggh Uh … Uhh ..Uhh .. Uhh’, and prematurely, ‘Uhhhhhh!’ ejaculates.

Query:

Because they can.

 

[StillStunned]

It's a human vanity to think a human narrator can achieve what God can't. If you think one can, maybe there's a little demon sitting on your shoulder whispering in your ear.

To the best of my knowledge, God doesn't have a single "Hot" rating here on Lit. When he publishes a story here, we can compare quality.

As for the challenges:
2P that's about the addressee: I think I've done that one already. Even though I knew I shouldn't.

2P that's about the narrator, without using a 1P pronoun:

You want it, don't you? Your eyes give you away. Your breathing, the slight twitch of your fingers. The way you wet your lips and lean in.

You'll have to wait a bit longer, though, but you like to be teased, don't you? You like to be made to beg for it. That's why you're here, after all. You've waited so long, and now you've finally given in.

And why? Why not? Sometimes it serves the story. Sometimes it's an exercise in writing skills. At the very least it makes you think about what you're doing, what the effect it. It's like 1P present: not my default mode of writing, but with the right story it creates interesting possibilities. Just don't expect to win any contests with it.

 

[TheLobster]

To the best of my knowledge, God doesn't have a single "Hot" rating here on Lit.

To be fair, his sole entry in the genre has far outsold anything that even the most popular authors here have penned.

 

[XerXesXu]

To the best of my knowledge, God doesn't have a single "Hot" rating here on Lit. When he publishes a story here, we can compare quality.

As for the challenges:
2P that's about the addressee: I think I've done that one already. Even though I knew I shouldn't.

2P that's about the narrator, without using a 1P pronoun:


And why? Why not? Sometimes it serves the story. Sometimes it's an exercise in writing skills. At the very least it makes you think about what you're doing, what the effect it. It's like 1P present: not my default mode of writing, but with the right story it creates interesting possibilities. Just don't expect to win any contests with it.

God's in good company. No one in the Canon has a 'Hot' on Lit, so far as we know.

You could distinguish your second 2P example from 1P by adding 'he said.' at the end.

 

[StillStunned]

You could distinguish your second 2P example from 1P by adding 'he said.' at the end.

But that would make it 3P.

 

[XerXesXu]

But that would make it 3P.

Quite.

There’s a difference between “…’I said.’” and “…’he said.’” You won’t get far without having to choose. The latter is 3P narration, the former 1P narration. There’s no 2P narration, only 2P POV.

 

[TheLobster]

There’s a difference between “…’I said.’” and “…’he said.’” You won’t get far without having to choose.

"...you hear him say" and variants thereof could conceivably be used as a 2P speech tag, so it's definitely possible to write a full-fledged 2P PoV story with dialogue.

 

[XerXesXu]

"...you hear him say" and variants thereof could conceivably be used as a 2P speech tag, so it's definitely possible to write a full-fledged 2P PoV story with dialogue.

It's very easy. Anything 'you' say and anything 'you' hear is within 2P POV. You say '...' He responds ' ... ' Conventionally, it's narrated in 3P close, but it can be done in 3P omniscient. Just sit down and do it.

 

[StillStunned]

There’s a difference between “…’I said.’” and “…’he said.’” You won’t get far without having to choose. The latter is 3P narration, the former 1P narration.

And this thread is an exercise in 2P. Which is why we're not adding things like "I said" and "he said".

It's very easy. Anything 'you' say and anything 'you' hear is within 2P POV. You say '...' He responds ' ... ' Conventionally, it's narrated in 3P close, but it can be done in 3P omniscient. Just sit down and do it.

I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar and comfortable with 1P and 3P, in its various forms. But again, this thread is about 2P, which is rarely practised, even more rarely used and almost never analysed.

 

[XerXesXu]

I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar and comfortable with 1P and 3P, in its various forms. But again, this thread is about 2P, which is rarely practised, even more rarely used and almost never analysed.

It's discussed and analysed several times a year on Lit. Many are now familiar with the distinction between narrative voice and Point of View, but not all.

The OP's query is, in essence, why can 2P POV appear to have 2 voices, 'you' and 'another'. The answer is, because the writer/narrator's authorial voice will intrude at some level whether narrating 2P POV in 1P or 3P. In your example above, you'll notice that the 2P character, to all intents and purposes, has no voice at all, the narrator's voice is so pronounced it appears to be 1P. The challenge in 2P POV is to give a voice to the 2P character that drowns out the authorial voice.

 

[StillStunned]

In your example above, you'll notice that the 2P, to all intents and purposes, has no voice at all, the narrator's voice is so pronounced it appears to be 1P.

Well yes, that was the challenge, wasn't it? To quote @AG31 in the OP:

My mini-challenge is to write a few paragraphs that are clearly about the narrator, without using the words "I", "me", "me", or "us."

The other part of the challenge was this:

write a few paragraphs where the narrator is neutral and it is all about the addressee

which you rephrased as:

The challenge in 2P POV is to give a voice to the 2P character that drowns out the authorial voice.

In my response I referred, perhaps somewhat obliquely, to my story You Know You Shouldn’t. I didn't include a link earlier, because almost everyone who engages in the discussions about 2P has already read it, and it had already been mentioned several times in yesterday's discussion.

 

[SimonDoom]

The challenge in 2P POV is to give a voice to the 2P character that drowns out the authorial voice.

I think this is why I usually think 2P POV is gimmicky rather than a truly useful way to write. It's very difficult NOT to write as though a first person narrator is commenting on and giving their own perspective on the "you" character's point of view. To me, it usually feels inauthentic.

 

[XerXesXu]

In my response I referred, perhaps somewhat obliquely, to my story You Know You Shouldn’t. I didn't include a link earlier, because almost everyone who engages in the discussions about 2P has already read it, and it had already been mentioned several times in yesterday's discussion.

Well, I've taken a look. The narrator tells him (2P) what he should and shouldn't do or feel, 79 times.

 

[StillStunned]

Well, I've taken a look. The narrator tells him (2P) what he should and shouldn't do or feel, 79 times.

And which narrator is that, exactly? There's no-one standing there, telling the 2P what to do. It's the 2P's conscience, the voice inside his head. The awareness that what he's doing is wrong. It's not a person addressing the 2P, it's the 2P himself.

This thread has distinguished between 2P POV that's about the narrator, and 2P POV that's about the 2P. In my story, what do we learn about the narrator? Nothing. It's all about what the 2P thinks, feels, does. It's all about his decisions, his concerns, his desires. There's nothing of a narrator's voice in the story.

I mentioned in the other thread that 2P POV eliminates the narrator. Instead of writer-narrator-reader, you essentially have writer-reader.

 

[XerXesXu]

And which narrator is that, exactly?

AKA StillStunned.

 

[StillStunned]

AKA StillStunned.

StillStunned is the writer, not the narrator.

 

[XerXesXu]

StillStunned is the writer, not the narrator.

Were there no narrator there’d be no story, the page would remain blank.

StillStunned is the authorial voice, the voice of the narrator. That story contains the voice of one 'character', the author. It even contains your voyeuristic leitmotif, a surreptitious glance of an erogenous zone memorised as masturbatory fuel.

The OP says, 'For myself, I am content with the idea that there is no pure 2nd person. There's always an implied 1st person in the narrator's voice.' I broadly agree.

Reverse transpose your pronouns to 1P and you'll find that you could’ve written it in 1P and transposed to 2p, which is why people sense an implied 1P narrator.